Americans are turning away from organized religion in record numbers

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Abortion is a stop gap, a poor one at that.

The better question is, is someone who can't afford to and isn't physically or mentally equipped to raise a child making an immoral decision by becoming pregnant.

But that's a whole other huge messy topic.

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that, but this is the reason why sex was treated the way it was - if you have it irresponsibly these things happen. With abortion, you can even say that sex leads to murder. Of course, the young person in question doesn't mean for sex to lead to that, it's an unintended consequence, but they don't intend to get STDs or anything else that comes from sex either.

Face it, even with birth control, sex isn't exactly "safe." And that's why it's wrong to teach that sex is acceptable way to enjoy yourself on Friday nights when you're bored. If and when things go wrong, they go wrong spectacularly and often for more people than just the person who chose to have sex.

I agree, it's a matter of weighing risk vs reward. Considering the risk of either(or both) unwanted pregnancy or transmission of a disease you would think that more people would be a little more discreet. So I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you stated, it is pure and simple logic.

a reply to: beezzer

Personally, I see the divorce rate as positive moral advancement. People are escaping the trap believing it's immoral to leave an abusive or loveless marriage. There couldn't be more a righteous and positive achievement in our social advances than the freedom from a bad marriage!

I also see abortion as positive momentum toward a free and healthy society. Legal and safe abortion is among the most positive things western society has accomplished for the advancement of women!

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Abortion is a stop gap, a poor one at that.

The better question is, is someone who can't afford to and isn't physically or mentally equipped to raise a child making an immoral decision by becoming pregnant.

But that's a whole other huge messy topic.

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that, but this is the reason why sex was treated the way it was - if you have it irresponsibly these things happen. With abortion, you can even say that sex leads to murder. Of course, the young person in question doesn't mean for sex to lead to that, it's an unintended consequence, but they don't intend to get STDs or anything else that comes from sex either.

Face it, even with birth control, sex isn't exactly "safe." And that's why it's wrong to teach that sex is acceptable way to enjoy yourself on Friday nights when you're bored. If and when things go wrong, they go wrong spectacularly and often for more people than just the person who chose to have sex.

Is it any wonder that Christians in their morality brigade also push for no sexual education in schools, or to push the abstinence or bust agenda? This leaves teenagers ill informed and not knowledgeable in where their attractions can lead. It's a two pronged attack of immorality. Destroy all education about sex then demonize a teenager for being irresponsible and getting pregnant. Then further demonize her when she is forced to get an abortion due to no other options available.

a reply to: ketsuko

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that, but this is the reason why sex was treated the way it was - if you have it irresponsibly these things happen. With abortion, you can even say that sex leads to murder. Of course, the young person in question doesn't mean for sex to lead to that, it's an unintended consequence, but they don't intend to get STDs or anything else that comes from sex either.

Having sex is not immoral in any way, shape, or form between two consenting people of mature and right mind. What is immoral is making sex dirty and shameful. Filling people with guilt for something that is natural to our species. What's immoral is NOT teaching our children responsibility, and a healthy attitude toward nudity and human sexuality. Instead we've passed on our own fears and backwardness to them, compliments of religion and false modesty.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

Personally, I see the divorce rate as positive moral advancement. People are escaping the trap believing it's immoral to leave an abusive or loveless marriage. There couldn't be more a righteous and positive achievement in our social advances than the freedom from a bad marriage!

I also see abortion as positive momentum toward a free and healthy society. Legal and safe abortion is among the most positive things western society has accomplished for the advancement of women!

You win.

If you see abortion and divorce as moral improvements, then I have nothing else to add.

Have a nice day.

a reply to: ketsuko

It's not murder when the thing that is "killed" never experienced life in the first place. A fetus is part of a woman's body until it is born. Are you saying a woman has no right to her own body? Why not make earrings illegal, or body modifications, or tattoos as well? They're all part of a persons right to do what they want with their body just like abortion and sex are.

A fetus is not a person until it is breathing on its own and no longer attached to its host.

Bottom line is morality is set by society that was even true when some felt religion was stronger and relevant because even then society dictated that some of those commandments and biblical rules were simply silly.


Morality of society can always improve but saying religion would help that is nonsense. In many ways we are far more moral than we were and many have shaken the bonds of religion to get there is there a correlation I don't know but I for one do not want to see society go backwards.

originally posted by: beezzer
Then the facts fit that we aren't in a moral decline?

Absolutely, you might have a different set of particular morals but that's your problem.

If we had the morals of your day gay folk would still be executed for their sexuality......great days!

What one person considers immoral, another doesn't. Our elders live in the past....sure life seemed nicer and people were more respectful...if you were in the right town.

Others of us grew up in terrible neighborhoods hiding from the scary neighbors or dark alleys. People have an inherent problem with perception. They are only perceiving what is in front of their face and their lack of knowledge and experience outside of their cozy realm of prayers and how-do-you-do's. The ONLY time my father was every truly proud of me was when I filled out that little card on the back of the chairs so that I would be "saved" by "God".

Religion is a misdirection. I've have seen it so many times. Children die and people say "God" has a better plan, or people praying for help with bills or illness, never giving thanks to the doctors or working harder to make another buck. It's so easy to rely on an all powerful being instead of giving yourself credit.

I hated this idea. The thought you could pray for what you wanted or needed. What about those people who don't believe? The children who are starving? The young women being abused? The innocent people being slaughtered? Where is "God" when they need "him" the most? Non-existent, as always and forever will be. But wait, as long as you have faith, you can wait 10 years for something positive to happen and it would be obviously "God" did it, it's a miracle!

It's utter nonsense. I believe in my heart a world without religion will be the best for everyone. Religion segregates us. It's a clique. You're Jewish, he's Catholic, she's a Mormon. No, WE ARE ALL HUMAN. ALL OF US. We live and die. I'm so tired of this childish game we play with who is right and who is wrong. In order for the future of mankind to evolve and prosper, religion must not be involved and should never be allowed to creep its prying fingers into scientific advancement or human rights. Ever. We are smart enough to think for ourselves. Abortion is a HUMAN RIGHT. If that's what you want to do, THEN DO IT! We don't need babysitters, people telling us what we can and can't do because it's wrong. You all preach about freedom, but cry like babies when something "offends" you. Abortion offends you? Then read a book and mind your own business. Gay marriage offends you? Spend that free time you're using to spit hatred and get a hobby. If you're religious and offended by my push for HUMAN RIGHTS then good, I'm doing my job. No more of this nonsense. You're church, you're "God", your religion all had a beginning, and suspiciously man was there to guide it along the way, editing, paraphrasing, re-releasing, and selling it for cold hard cash.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

A fetus has a heart. Things with beating hearts are living. Stopping a heart from beating is considered killing.

As for the Original Post, maybe people will finally find God without religion. Unless materialism possess them, God forbid.

People have less free time for frivolous pursuits.

More "alternatives", to say the least.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

A fetus has a heart. Things with beating hearts are living. Stopping a heart from beating is considered killing.

As for the Original Post, maybe people will finally find God without religion. Unless materialism possess them, God forbid.

If the fetus' heart won't beat without it being connected it's mother, if its lungs can't take in air, if its life won't persist outside of its host, then its life is not its own.