Americans are turning away from organized religion in record numbers

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

Sounds like rose colored nostalgia glasses to me.

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's, I don't see it as that at all. As Beezer said, the crime, the violence, the disregard for others, was so much less back then. I don't know what single thing affected so much change, or if any one thing could be attributed to such change, but the difference is clear. We had guns back then, but didn't have school shootings. It just seems like sociopaths are more common and the practice is more accepted.

originally posted by: beezzer
Maybe. But I'm going by how I actually feel. It's not dependent on how many "likes" I get or what meme is trending to determine how I remember or what my opinion should be.

How you feel has nothing to do with the truth of the matter.

The truth is not dependent on emotions nor sensations.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: network dude

Such narratives minimize the struggles of other generations. The greatest generation isn't the only generation to experience hardship nor are the only one to live through an economic depression. Also, not everyone recovered or prospered through the 50's and 60's. There has always been a poor class.

Oh and one more thing, there were draft dodgers in WWI and II than in Vietnam by a VERY large margin. The "Greatest" Generation is revisionist history.

A firm grasp on the reality is needed to have this discussion. I doubt many here can even fathom standing in line for hours hoping for a loaf of bread. I sure don't. My friends mother lived through WW2 in Germany and recalls her mother making a dress for her, (the only one she had) out of a parachute from a dead solder that fell into their home through what was left of the roof. My grandfather leaving home at 16 to go find a job and make a living.

It just depends on what perspective you look at this with. We have lots of cool things they didn't have. But they had some things we lack to day. Like empathy.

originally posted by: network dude
Sounds like rose colored nostalgia glasses to me.

Having grown up in the 70's and 80's, I don't see it as that at all. As Beezer said, the crime, the violence, the disregard for others, was so much less back then. I don't know what single thing affected so much change, or if any one thing could be attributed to such change, but the difference is clear. We had guns back then, but didn't have school shootings. It just seems like sociopaths are more common and the practice is more accepted.

Violent crime is at an all time low, and the world is actually more peaceful than ever. We may hear more about the bad things that actually do happen, with the spread of information and the abundance of cameras and other equipment, but the world isn't quite as bad as people like to claim it is.

Not to mention the 70's and 80's harbored many celebrity sex offenders that come to light almost on a daily basis. I wonder what the previous generations were like, there's barely anyone left to report what might have happened....

a reply to: network dude

It just depends on what perspective you look at this with. We have lots of cool things they didn't have. But they had some things we lack to day. Like empathy.

I feel your pain....

a reply to: network dude

But they had some things we lack to day. Like empathy.

MORE AND MORE people are learning empathy, rather than self-righteous hatred of others and fear-induced "good behavior".

originally posted by: Prezbo369

originally posted by: beezzer
Maybe. But I'm going by how I actually feel. It's not dependent on how many "likes" I get or what meme is trending to determine how I remember or what my opinion should be.

How you feel has nothing to do with the truth of the matter.

The truth is not dependent on emotions nor sensations.

Then the facts fit that we aren't in a moral decline?

I think the biggest contributing factor to the degradation of society is selfishness.

Selfishness, people just can't look beyond themselves for anything. Financially, emotionally, socially it's effects are everywhere.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer







Or show me how things are better.

It's better now because even in the 60s you as a black male could never have achieved the employment and social standing you now enjoy. For that to even take place...we as a nation have become more moral...not less!!

Laws have changed, some even for the better.

But has morality increased?

The race issue is more about laws than about morality.

a reply to: network dude

I'm not trying to minimize their accomplishments, but to many times people look at this generation with too much reverence as if they were the most moral America has ever been. Except no, they were notoriously racist (many of living ones still are, I have a relative who is). And this struggle only extends to white people who benefited post WWII. Black people continued to struggle for another 20 - 30 years.

Another facet of this generation is the desire to sweep embarrassing things under the rug. Many believed that if you didn't talk about a problem then it didn't exist. Rapes, spousal abuse, child abuse, and other domestic issues would go unreported because there were no outlets to do so plus society frowned on speaking out on it.

Plus I'd say that some of the struggles of people today put the struggles of the people in the 30's to shame. People today work two jobs to barely bring in enough food to feed their families. Their spouse works one or two jobs as well and each has college debt that they will never get out from under because they don't make enough money. They have no mobility within the country and cannot relocate for better opportunities because the cost to do so is too prohibitive.

But it is all different problems for different eras. We all have our difficulties and we all have to live through them.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer







Or show me how things are better.

It's better now because even in the 60s you as a black male could never have achieved the employment and social standing you now enjoy. For that to even take place...we as a nation have become more moral...not less!!

Laws have changed, some even for the better.

But has morality increased?

The race issue is more about laws than about morality.

Laws are a result of the populace seeing the morality of a situation and seeking to change it thru legislation.

Your logic escapes me. A clear case of letting your ideology get in the way of your common sense!!

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: beezzer

By not giving a simple frame of reference does that mean it was never sunshine and unicorns as you put it yet for some reason your upset that it isn't sunshine and unicorns now.


At least give us a frame of reference where you said it was better.

It was better when I was a child.

Well yeah, most things are better as a child. Not much responsibility or knowledge of the world at that point either.

I bet it wasn't better for everyone when you were a child.

Just a side note because you said in another post there wasn't gang violence and streets were safer. That would have to be from your perspective I am sure.

My pops passed away not long ago, but he didn't paint a picture of it being safe for everyone although it was probably safer if you were a white male then.

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: beezzer







Or show me how things are better.

It's better now because even in the 60s you as a black male could never have achieved the employment and social standing you now enjoy. For that to even take place...we as a nation have become more moral...not less!!

Laws have changed, some even for the better.

But has morality increased?

The race issue is more about laws than about morality.

Laws are a result of the populace seeing the morality of a situation and seeking to change it thru legislation.

Your logic escapes me.

So all laws are based on morality?

You adhere and agree with all laws?

There is a law on abortion. I don't think killing a pre-born child is very moral, myself, but hey, maybe I'm wrong.

a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

It's interesting. But I guess I fall into their category ... kind of and so does my husband. We were both raised into two organized Protestant religions. I was Methodist and he was Nazarene. However, while both of us are very adamantly professing Christians, we are neither one Methodist or Nazarene anymore. We, thus, don't belong to any one organized religion.

Does the survey take that into account or would it simply assume that everyone like us is just magically not religious anymore because we don't belong to an organized sect?

Also, I saw the results of a survey of the religious retention of the children raised to various belief systems. Hindu was the best retention rate with Islam a close second. Then, for some reason, they split all the various Christian denoms out. But do you know the belief system that was weakest in retention? Atheist. Kids raised in atheist households stayed atheist less than any other kids stayed with their home belief system.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

Jupm through hoops and justify murder.

It is my opinion that you are denying the rights of the unborn by killing them.

How moral is that?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

No, the "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with another human being's body?"

That's the real question. Should she have the right to end someone else's life for the convenience of her own?

a reply to: ketsuko

Should she have the right to end someone else's life for the convenience of her own?

Or to allow the life of someone else to sink into despair and hopelessness for want of enough to eat? And end in that way?

Should people have the right to do that?
It's bloody inconvenient to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and house the homeless....
people die every day for lack of those things. What about war?

Does ISIS or Israel have the right to end someone else's life to suit themselves?

Roe v Wade was passed in the 70s - it stands today.

a reply to: ketsuko

But do you know the belief system that was weakest in retention? Atheist. Kids raised in atheist households stayed atheist less than any other kids stayed with their home belief system.

Source?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

How moral is abortion?