Americans are turning away from organized religion in record numbers

Abortion is a stop gap, a poor one at that.

The better question is, is someone who can't afford to and isn't physically or mentally equipped to raise a child making an immoral decision by becoming pregnant.

But that's a whole other huge messy topic.

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: beezzer
Beez. I wish you would elaborate more on what you personally see as "decline". Compared to history we are no worse, and probably better off than we have ever been as a species. History paints a very bleak picture of our morals and ethics in the past. We were rightly called barbaric.

Do we have moral and ethical problems today? Yes. But in decline? I'm not so sure about that when I compare the past to the present. All due repsect, but I'm not seeing it.

I'm still waiting for someone to show me how it is better.

The most anyone has stated is that it hasn't changed.

I know when I was a child, there was more respect. I know that when I was a child, the streets were safer to walk down. I know that when I was a child, there wasn't the gang violence, the shootings, the criminal activity we see now. I know when I was a child, you didn't beat your teacher.

But I'm an old guy.

Maybe I'm wrong and can't see the metro-secular awesomeness that is prevalent in today's society.

I don't think anyone can say it is better overrall, but I think we've had improvements in some areas. I grew up in the ghettos of St. Louis in the 60's and 70's. My childhood was a nightmare in many respects. Few white people can say they know what it's like to be hated for their skin color. Those of us who grew up where I did do know. More than once my life was threatened, but somehow I made it through the attacks, and the race riots at my school.

Contrast that to where I have now lived for more than 20 years. I live in a town of about 5500, and people here are, for the most part respectful of one another. People walk the streets here all hours of the day and night. The cops here are pretty good guys as a whole. Some people never lock their doors here(I'm serious) We do have some corruption, and local politics are a joke. Especially the local newspaper, but such is to be expected I suppose. In some ways, we're stuck in the past though, and the city/county have suffered because of decisions made by local government.

From my perception, things are exponentially better than when I was growing up. However, nationally and internationally, I can definitely see your point. We have a hell of a long way to go as a species. And some plain old etiquette might help matters a bit. But I think morals and ethics should come from global, national, and local cooperation as a species. Not from religious manuscripts that were written in the bronze age.

I would also like to note that during the 40's thru the 60's is when some of the greatest modern atrocities were committed by governments. Including our government. Also, rape, domestic violence against women, and child abuse were rampant, and way under reported as opposed to now.

In any case, I can better understand what you're saying now. Not all "progress" is good.

a reply to: olaru12

When I was growing up, folks would look the other way if a fella was beating his wife and kids. Girls who reported and complained about sexual abuse and harassment were silenced and/or slandered. Pedophilia was rampant but no one cared.

We watched the "Andy Griffith Show" and "Car 54 Where Are You?" while the National Guard was camping out in our yard because Marshal Law was declared on account of the Watts Riots.

In my church we thanked Jesus for the bomb that we dropped on those slanty eyed heathens in Japan, proving our "White Supremacy" in God's eyes.

Now days, people are more sympathetic to people who are strange and different and speak out on their behalf, rather than clamor for their blood. There are more vegetarians and animal rights activists. Generally, people to day have a higher awareness of their responsibility in a global community and work toward common good and moral goals, imho.

a reply to: beezzer

How moral is it to allow "the born" to die of starvation or preventable disease? Or bomb them into oblivion or subject them to slavery after they are able to FEEL THE PAIN. We don't, apparently, as a global population, WANT badly enough to feed the world's extant, breathing people, let alone keep their air and water clean - so, do we want to allow MORE of them to be born, so we can further not want to feed/house/clothe them?

And if they get in our way - to just bomb them, poison them, ruin their homes, and let them starve?

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

Jupm through hoops and justify murder.

It is my opinion that you are denying the rights of the unborn by killing them.

How moral is that?

That is on the woman though. That is her problem. If abortion were illegal, that wouldn't stop a woman from getting one. With them being legal, it provides a safe place to have them.

Plus someone can still make the choice to not have an abortion if she gets pregnant.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

No, the "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with another human being's body?"

That's the real question. Should she have the right to end someone else's life for the convenience of her own?

Not everyone chooses to have an abortion when they get an inconvenient pregnancy.

a reply to: Klassified

I'd be happy if they were even teaching morality. Don't care from what, just teach it, live it, be an example of it!

I see too many people justifying their lack of morality, though.

*meh*

Haters gonna hate, hate, hate



Time I left again,

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I agree with the sentiments of your post. Some things have declined, and some have advanced. Back then racism was blatant and out in the open. Today, great strides have been made, but a real look at it shows we aren't even close to bypassing appearance over character.

this part of your post is an example of what I mean.

Plus I'd say that some of the struggles of people today put the struggles of the people in the 30's to shame. People today work two jobs to barely bring in enough food to feed their families. Their spouse works one or two jobs as well and each has college debt that they will never get out from under because they don't make enough money. They have no mobility within the country and cannot relocate for better opportunities because the cost to do so is too prohibitive.

While families today do have struggles, if you take a serious look into the stories of how people survived during the late 30's it's not even close. It's like me bitching about my "nasty winter" to someone in Boston. In my perspective, it's been kind of sh!tty, but from a Bostonian's perspective, I should not be whining.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

No, but statistics bear out that the vast, overwhelming majority of cases are for that reason. As in not even 5% are for legitimate life of the mother, rape, etc., that are so often used to shield the practice.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: beezzer

Because you break a chain in the link of moral decisions and skip right to committing to the abortion. The law gives the CHOICE to make the decision to have an abortion. The real question you should be asking is, "Is it immoral to give someone the choice to do something with her body?"

Jupm through hoops and justify murder.

It is my opinion that you are denying the rights of the unborn by killing them.

How moral is that?

That is on the woman though. That is her problem. If abortion were illegal, that wouldn't stop a woman from getting one. With them being legal, it provides a safe place to have them.

Plus someone can still make the choice to not have an abortion if she gets pregnant.

Well I guess we should just legalize murder and rape too. After all, they are both illegal but people still do them.

Seriously, that is a flawed argument.

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Abortion is a stop gap, a poor one at that.

The better question is, is someone who can't afford to and isn't physically or mentally equipped to raise a child making an immoral decision by becoming pregnant.

But that's a whole other huge messy topic.

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that, but this is the reason why sex was treated the way it was - if you have it irresponsibly these things happen. With abortion, you can even say that sex leads to murder. Of course, the young person in question doesn't mean for sex to lead to that, it's an unintended consequence, but they don't intend to get STDs or anything else that comes from sex either.

Face it, even with birth control, sex isn't exactly "safe." And that's why it's wrong to teach that sex is acceptable way to enjoy yourself on Friday nights when you're bored. If and when things go wrong, they go wrong spectacularly and often for more people than just the person who chose to have sex.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well I guess we should just legalize murder and rape too. After all, they are both illegal but people still do them.

Oh, but wait!!! We DO legalize murder WHEN IT SUITS OUR "NATIONAL INTERESTS" to do so - We also legalize murder whenever the DEATH PENALTY is enacted.

Hmmmm.....

a reply to: beezzer

You're cherry picking your moral outrage. Why aren't you as upset over the divorce rate? Or how many fornicator and adulterers are unrepentant in the sins? Where's your moral outrage over corporate welfare and corporate rape of nations resources and people, in the name of "Homeland Security".

Why can't you get your head out of women's private parts?

a reply to: beezzer

Time I left again,

Toodles!!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: beezzer

You're cherry picking your moral outrage.

Really?

Why aren't you as upset over the divorce rate? Or how many fornicator and adulterers are unrepentant in the sins? Where's your moral outrage over corporate welfare and corporate rape of nations resources and people, in the name of "Homeland Security".

Why can't you get your head out of women's private parts?

Nasty comment but I'll answer before I depart.

You are proving the point I was making in that morality has decreased, is decaying.

Thank you for other examples.

It seems as though people are replacing religious affiliation with political affiliation. "Left wing, right wing, conservative, liberal, etc." I'm not too sure one is any better than the other really.

a reply to: network dude

The psychological effects of the situation I described there can be just as devastating as the psychological effects of living during the Great Depression. You are trying to analyze the hardship of the entire generation together. Not everyone suffered equally and not everyone experienced the worst. The highest the unemployment rate got during the Great Depression was 25%. That means that not everyone was unemployed and not everyone was experiencing the worst the decade had to offer.

a reply to: ketsuko

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that, but this is the reason why sex was treated the way it was - if you have it irresponsibly these things happen. With abortion, you can even say that sex leads to murder.

You equate sex with immorality and so you see immorality everywhere. That doesn't make people having sex immoral to the rest of us. You think that abortion is murder, but your opinion doesn't make it so, or make women who have had abortions "guilty" of murder. Those people are only guilty and immoral in YOUR eyes. But you don't dictate what morality is and is not.

The only people who think that society is in moral decline are those who are cherry picking their moral outrage.

a reply to: ketsuko

Becoming pregnant isn't where the immorality occurs. It's in the having sex. I'm going to take flames for that

Yep - glad you're ready!

Sexuality is a perfectly NORMAL, unstoppable, biological process based on hormones that no "law" can control.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Krazysh0t

No, but statistics bear out that the vast, overwhelming majority of cases are for that reason. As in not even 5% are for legitimate life of the mother, rape, etc., that are so often used to shield the practice.

That's the mother's decision though. She has to live with the psychological impact of her decision, not you.