Non-Extraterrestrial UFO Hypotheses

a reply to: RedCairo

I see you are starting to face the painful realization now.
Some people commit suicide when they are confronted
by the fact they don't exist, have never existed, but
will always exist whenever that particular set of
properties churns up from the universe again,
as an emergent property of other things interacting.

This is something I rarely if ever talk about.. as people
can't take it. People can't take 90% of what I have to
say.

There is a wonderful series of book about this
truth, but it has a suicide rate associated with
it, so i can't recommend it openly.

I never learned peace, true eternal peace
until i learned this truth.

So it's wonderful. And horrible.

Kev

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine

In the Bluebook cases I've read, if the experiencer 'believes in' UFOs, their reliability is questioned!

Bluebook was a government project. We're talking about UFO groups. You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

Hey! Be nice to the Trickster!

I seriously consider myself a living part of the Trickster.

Aren't I nice?



I'm serious.

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

When i was 14-21 I used the cards.
Nothing negative happened.

But it attracted (in my case) 'Egyptian gods'
to me, at an increasing rate as I used them.

I did eventually get nightmares of being
consumed alive by Sekmet the Crocodile
headed God.

That's a dream about self-transformation,
about the true nature of the self.. but
it's not the easiest dream to have before
you are ready for the truth.

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

Hey, I started out as a fluffy bunny wicca priestess when I was but a teenager still in high school. I still am. There is no better belief set in the expression of individual creativity. I enjoy it.

I've used all the divination techniques common to Wicca. It's my favorite "control system". (Be nice Kev, ) The Tarot, I've always affectionately referred to as my "psychologist in a box", and have utilized it as such since I began using it. I focus on a problem or issue and then do a reading of the cards, to help me see the focus from a different perspective. I have never used the Tarot as an Oracle - as other techniques are more affective for me. However, this is not to say that I haven't seen someone use the Tarot as an oracle quite effectively - as a means of foretelling a likely future. Nephratari has given me a reading before that was amazingly accurate and was a definite fore seeing into my immediate future.

I was quite impressed, but I myself would not choose the Tarot to achieve the same results. I use my energy differently, with a different intention, when using the Tarot. In short - tools are only as effective as the person, and intention they have, in using them. The cards mean nothing, it is the person behind the cards that is the "magic" - even if that is yourself and your own accomplishment with the art of Tarot.

My evolution into the study of Angels, Pagan Gods (I couldn't choose a favorite system of gods if my life depended upon it) and the assimilation into the groupings of 'Angels' - The Apocrypha, to Dee & Kelley's work in the 16th Century, to Chaldaen mythology and ancient books by the likes of Agrippa and Bacon - to the later workings of Crowley, Gardner... and well it's led me down the widening paths of the rabbit hole to where ATS is a ritualistic stop... so it is - well... it's a passion.

I wouldn't make any different choices. I am like Alice and plunge head first after the white rabbit. I'm going to hunt that damn thing down - skin it, cook it and eat it. Tricky little rabbit.

What I've found in my studies is that what we now identify as UFOlogy is but a pretty new wrapping paper of an older story. So it's the same thing, but being where we are in time, and from our perceptions now - it seems as though it's brand new. It's not. Whatever this phenomenon is - it's ancient. The great thing about our times now, is we don't just have centuries of data collected and retained - we have thousands of moments of human perception recorded through-out time up to now. I don't think it's wise to disregard how they looked at this same phenomenon - described it - and rationalized it. Cause the similarities of what they wrote about then, and what 'experiencers' experience now - is marked and apparent.

For example. This is Cassiel. The image was reproduced in Fracis Barrett's The Magus. It was written in 1801 - well before technology had really come down to bare on humanity, and make it's mark - changing our perceptions of the world and the universe and our place in it.



Now if that isn't a close representation of an Reptilian Alien - that hundreds of abductees report witnessing in independent accounts... Well then I don't know my butt from a hole in the ground.

Now to be fair, Cassiel as an angel does has - extraterrestrial influence. I mean, besides being one of the Elohim (Sons of God) who was created not on Earth to begin with.... He is one of the rulers of Saturn. He is the angel of Solitudes and tears. In Tarot he is symbolized in the card Temperance This particular angel still resides in the Heavens. He's one of the good guys! Theoretically, if you see Cassiel, he's one of the ones that shoot out into space, rather than into the earth or water. His job is to "shew forth the unity of the eternal kingdom." He's keeping Heaven safe for when the war over what to do with the 'soul' is decided - so that he can usher forth the deserving souls into the immortal kingdom of Heaven - that exist outside Earth in a corner of the many mansions of heaven...

Or something of that variation. I fear I've a romanticized view of it all. Some day I'll take all this stuff that interests me and I've studied and experienced, weave it together - and write a book. The Aliens that were Immortal.

Anyhow, all silly'ness' aside. This next photo was always something that's stayed with me, whenever I've seen a large UFO light orb in the sky. This is illustration from "The Divine Comedy", by Dante. This was written in the early 1300's but the artist Dore's attempt at illustrating Canto 27 of Dante's Pardiso was in the late 1800's. I believe 1868.



The trouble comes, in my thinking... in going into this vein of investigation - is it still all falls back to outside influence - and this shows it's always been considered separate from us and independent - autonomous of us. So the new wrappings of "Ufology" doesn't bother me so much as it amuses me - because it's a testimony to our continued involvement with a seen reality, and an unseen reality. It also illustrates our propensity of letting our ego - redefine a whole new set of parameters to the system. It's a need, I believe. I mean, I don't believe things unfold in an unnatural way. We will get out into space and explore new boundaries of human experience - and we will experience this phenomenon out there too. Eventually, an ark will be necessary. I don't think we can pull it back to any other conclusion. So perhaps it's all simply a conditioning, or readying - of the next step?

CdT

a reply to: CirqueDeTruth

Most all of us SEEK OUT a control system, as most of us are
uncomfortable living without one. Of course on ATS it's
now becoming more common to complain about being
'victims' of the 'control system(s) - that people work
desperately to be defined by in the first place!

For example if you are a Republican-Hating Democrat,
(fighting the control system in your own way), then you've
worked hard to put yourself in that box, which over time
utterly controls you!

Yawn*

I did enjoy your post, but I don't really have any other
comments than those i made - take that as a compliment!

Kev

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

But doesn't it depend on your definition of "real?"

Being a dream that bubbles up when fractals happen to meet isn't disconcerting to me.. .even being an automaton, or npc for someone more "real" in a simulation, doesn't bother me, if such is the truth... from my perspective, I exist, and that's fine for me. It's sometimes interesting.

What could be different? Me in a more "real" solid universe? The progenitor universe where atoms are irreducible and not blurs that don't exist when not looked at? How is that different if I can't know the difference?

Anyway, I am info... and that info will be around, or it won't...

eta I guess I'm saying we are as "real" as we think we are ...and if it's found that we're not the end all be all of reality, but rather an involved, less tangible dream thingy, then so what? Same with dancing with the Trickster... our universe mirrors expectations... true, mastering your mind is tough (to impossible), but training it so the universe isn't so nasty (or one's own mind, rather) is not so hard... and it is our current reality... so, I'm curious why such a realization would cause suicide? I guess if one thought they were more important or more fixed, it might be shocking... but so what?

eta and one last thing, this discussion DOES impact the non ET hypothesis... because it might be closer to the truth of the situation... that our reality is (might be) a malleable soup of greater and lesser conscious centers vying for their own reality...and thus weird stuff is solidified on occasion when the waves of consciousness eddy and happen to create a temporary stable whirlpool we call "reality."

ZR, I think you make a good point:

That part of the underlying problem with all this is a paradigm, which says, either it's physical, or it's not, and if it's not, then it means there is something wrong with the person.

In my experiences I came to believe that actual technology was involved in a few (doesn't mean it's tech from here) and that I was being "bi-located." I'd never even heard of the concept before I ran into thinking I was having the experience, and repeatedly. That actually suggested that my body was a spectrum of energy and literally "some" of it was going elsewhere having physical-legitimate-experience while "some" of it was actually staying home.

Separately (different kinds of experiences), there seemed to be a sort of "spectrum" of energy I compared to the rainbow, where fully-physical was 'red band' and dreaming was 'yellow band' and orange was 'astral' -- and orange has areas that literally are some-red and some-orange, so it is "partly" physical -- a percentage.

Thinking of my body and 'what is physical' as a percentage, or as both-and-neither, was mind-crunching.

It reminds me of the first time I ran into a sex paper in L.A. featuring male+female TS -- in my whole life, I had never even thought of the idea of a person not being male or female, but maybe being both. Or neither. Or somewhere on a spectrum in between (or outside the edges??). Biochemical individuality for sure! I'm kind of fascinated by that (and slightly taken aback by the idea of how hard life must be for people growing up and coming to terms with that, wow).

Our people don't even know HOW to think about this concept of "gradient physicality." We're all either-or in our culture. Either it's as real as a bolt or it's as unreal as a wingnut and I don't mean the metal kind LOL.

Also there is the concept of 'interdimensional functionality' maybe being perceived in 'our' reality as some kind of magic or technology, which it may or may not be, but maybe it's just the way it IS.

Water reflects; things float on water; water finds its own level; I find water to be so amazing that I don't know if it's magic or technology but I think it's kind of both. Same goes for nine, the number 9, casting out 9's -- it just boggles my brain. These are things we know of, seemingly ordinary things, and yet if you really look into these things, you see that they have qualities and functions that deserve nothing less than delighted awe on our part.

Now if we were to run into something like this and we didn't have any of our own -- if water didn't exist for us, and we just were experiencing something like it in 'anomalous' fashion -- we'd sure have a hard time explaining it, or being believed by others. Some people would call it alien technology. Some people would call it occult magick. Maybe it just IS kind of both and neither.

Maybe our trying to stuff it into that polarized male/female black/white physical/nonphysical model is the larger problem, maybe it just doesn't belong there, for the same reasons that water is never going to obey all the laws of a rock or a gas. By trying to assign it a label before we even have any idea what the hell is going on, we pre-choose the answer by pre-choosing the data (I talked of this in my old case study).

The pervasive dismissal and negation-of-validity assigned any experience that is not claimed to be fully physical is a reflection of a larger cultural issue of course, we are like shallow teens who allot sex only to the body and really have no concept of deep relationships and headspace and intimacy as part of that yet, culturally we are still very young in this regard, with what we know about ourselves and the 'depth' (or lack thereof) of capacity we allow ourselves.

But I think it is a key part of the problem we have discussing these topics.

I was lucid for months once, 24/7. It was a side-effect of a kundalini experience that happened early in my weird days. I had always been profoundly lucid anyway (from earliest childhood) in dreams but this was something else. I simply was always 'aware.' I went to sleep. I dreamed, all kinds of stuff. And I did a ton of other stuff that was the equivalent of going to a couple jobs and going to visit all the inner neighbors and more, except it was all happening 'in there' but to me, it was just as legit as anything that the body might choose to engage in when it was awake.

Many of my experiences as a result were not something where I woke up from a dream and remembered; I was completely aware and alert from before the time I sat down in my chair (where I'd fall asleep often) until the next morning and I engaged fully consciously during the event no different than I would anything else when my body was awake. Events were not something I dreamed, they were something that 'happened to me.'

And if 99.9% of our culture is so un-aware, un-lucid, that they have no idea what goes on the minute their body goes to sleep -- that they think "nothing except some garbage can of subconscious venting" -- that was hardly my fault or my problem. My experience suggests that the life we live here is actually only a small percentage of the life we live.

Some things did happen when my body was awake. Some of the weirdest things happened during then actually! But many happened when my body was asleep, or sometimes awake like sitting in a recliner but I let it pass into sleep during. I don't have an 'invalidation setting' on default for what happens when we sleep or even are just hypnagogic / alpha-theta.

But I know others do. Most people if you weren't wide awake and touching it, it wasn't real, so they want to figure out not 'what happened' but 'what is wrong with you, that you think something did.'

RC

a reply to: Baddogma

You have it right.

You see religion and spirituality were
designed to con us into producing
a specific type of tulpa - 'soul, spirit,
higher self' whatever you want to
call it.

Only --- and you have it right --- we are
not that --- that stuff is part of the
reproductive cycle of 'plasma beings'
and the beings who con the plasma
beings as part of THEIR life cycle.

Now 'we' are a permanent and endlessly
dissolving and reforming part of a creative
process.

Deathless and constantly dying.

Kev

First - I honestly do appreciate your concern about anyone's attempts to "uncork a [paranormal] bottle", and I do not take your cautions lightly...but it isn't so much that I want to 'uncork the bottle', as that I wish it was possible to hold it up to the light and peer thru the glass.

originally posted by: Tangerine

You may be onto something when you suggest (at least I think that's what you're suggesting) that the literalists are somehow part of this web, too. Perhaps they're caught in a tiny corner of the web by design not of their own (at least conscious) making.

Second - I think the above is a good point, because (in discourse of non-ET, the paranormal, & control system feedback loops) it acknowledges that the "literalists" have bought into a 'narrative' which is most likely the result of the government having been 'feeding into' the anomaly 'loop' since at least 1947...

As far as the group you're meeting up with tomorrow - I agree with you and Zeta, it is maddening and counter-productive for a person to have their 'experience' railroaded into a reframing which is both damaging to her 'psyche' and inhibiting of true investigation.

- I would like to offer a suggestion, although it may not be at all feasible (depends on your judgement of whether the "malleable person" would be receptive) -

- If you can get her aside you might point out that most so-called 'abductions' can be traced to military experiments on people (90% of the 'victims' have some sort of 'tie' - whether close family/friends in the military or living near bases. Jacque Vallee actually had confirmation of an 'abduction' carried out by France's Dept. of Defense, so it's not just the US pulling this stuff), and that since her 'experience' seems to be of a different 'kind', perhaps she would like suggestions on resources which outline 'cases' more similar to hers (i.e. inter-dimensional rather than extra-terrestrial - John Keel, etc.)

Of course, if she's too 'indoctrinated' by the MUFON 'crowd', there's no point..

originally posted by: 1ofthe9
How many of you guys have had OOB's or NDE's? This was one aspect I learned about from Nick Redfern's Collins Elite stuff - he's apparently got another book in the works.

I've had at least one out of the body experience. In my experience, I visited the home of several friends and they were sitting in a circle on the floor playing cards. I told one of them about it the next day and he was flabbergasted. That's what they had done the night before. I was able to tell him exactly where each person sat. He said they had never played cards together before.

originally posted by: KellyPrettyBear

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Tangerine

In the Bluebook cases I've read, if the experiencer 'believes in' UFOs, their reliability is questioned!

Bluebook was a government project. We're talking about UFO groups. You're completely missing the point which is that those groups do not record seeming non-UFO anomalous experiences reported by people who also report UFO encounters/sightings nor do they ask about those experiences.

You didn't ask me but I would strongly suggest that you avoid "playing" with tarot cards. I get the impression that you think going down the rabbit hole is fun. It's not. You have a WIccan background and Wicca traditionally paints a twinkly happy bunny face on this sort of stuff. It's nothing of the sort. If you dance with the trickster you'll wish that you hadn't.

Hey! Be nice to the Trickster!

I seriously consider myself a living part of the Trickster.

Aren't I nice?



I'm serious.

Kev

LOL. I take your point.

a reply to: RedCairo

Water reflects; things float on water; water finds its own level; I find water to be so amazing that I don't know if it's magic or technology but I think it's kind of both.

This was first discovered in 1964 by Gretchen Fetchin the Slime Queen.

a reply to: lostgirl

I do believe the government is playing a significant role in reinforcing (and, perhaps, creating) the literalist approach to UFOs to serve whatever needs the government might have.

I managed to get into the experiencers group (yeah!) and it was quite interesting. The malleable person did not attend but if I run into her or she attends next time, I'll try to make her aware of other interpretations. After that, it's up to her, of course. Thanks for the suggestion.

What is the source of the claim that 90% of abductees have some connection to the military either via family/friends or living near bases?

originally posted by: RedCairo
...
Water reflects; things float on water; water finds its own level; I find water to be so amazing that I don't know if it's magic or technology but I think it's kind of both. Same goes for nine, the number 9, casting out 9's -- it just boggles my brain. These are things we know of, seemingly ordinary things, and yet if you really look into these things, you see that they have qualities and functions that deserve nothing less than delighted awe on our part.

...
RC

I've always been attracted to the Norse rune Laguz, the broken reed that signifies water, a vital necessity but a danger, fluid and changeable, deception, intuition, the unconscious depths.

Between bases being everywhere and military service being so common in 'extended' families it's kinda hard not to find that particular connection, but I'm not sure that it would mean anything on its own.

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: lostgirl

I do believe the government is playing a significant role in reinforcing (and, perhaps, creating) the literalist approach to UFOs to serve whatever needs the government might have.

I managed to get into the experiencers group (yeah!) and it was quite interesting. The malleable person did not attend but if I run into her or she attends next time, I'll try to make her aware of other interpretations. After that, it's up to her, of course. Thanks for the suggestion.

What is the source of the claim that 90% of abductees have some connection to the military either via family/friends or living near bases?

I must the last person in this forum to do so, but the book
"Mirage Men" really reinforces the role the Government has
always had in so heavily promoting the ridiculous form
of the ETH that they push (large numbers of 'crashed'
UFOs, anal probes, animal and human mutilation, etc).

Kev

Is it government pushing those things? I never heard of most of them until I dived into ufology on the internet. And then it turned out much of that was from books by individuals (who if anything were claiming the government was harrassing them).

Or from personal experiences claimed by individuals. I grant there's leeway there if we assume "the govt" may be influencing individuals, but still, I won't discount personal testimony under the assumption it's big brother induced.

I know someone who experienced up close a cattle mutilation, a weird experience I totally believe him about, so I wouldn't dismiss that. Doesn't mean it isn't promoted I suppose, but I have not seen much about that outside ooh aah ref.

Where is it that "the government" is promoting these stories? Specific people in the media? I grant I have no experience with that -- I avoid the topic generally, ATS is just the mouth of my cave -- or forums like these??

RC

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
This was first discovered in 1964 by Gretchen Fetchin the Slime Queen.

What is that? Is it some kind of movie, that picture?

RC

a reply to: RedCairo

If you poke around, basically every single famous crashed ufo
story, or saucer cult personality was either directly funded by
the letter agencies or fed disinfo by the letter agencies,
going back to 1947. Apparently even the 1952 UFO flap
over DC was forged, etc. There are many books on the subject
and our friend The GUT did brilliant work. Also Vallee who
I personally trust writes about it. He was censored all
the way back to Hynek and project Blue Book.

Now, that's not saying that there are not ALSO 'real' UFO
sightings, UAP, paranormal occurrences, etc - we all know
that there are from personal experience.

But yes, for whatever reason, (like with everything else)
the Government tries to take control of ANY and EVERY
powerful force in the world - by taking control of the
narrative.

I don't enjoy studying the topic; but one really needs to,
in order to screen out the deception of the government,
so that one can clearly see the deception of the
phenomenon itself! and differentiate that from our own
self-delusion and wishful thinking - Oi!

Kev

originally posted by: RedCairo

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
This was first discovered in 1964 by Gretchen Fetchin the Slime Queen.

What is that? Is it some kind of movie, that picture?

RC

Yes. It from the movie about the movie. I had just watched it before your quote and was really struck by that particular story. She was a "Prankster". Her real name is Paula Sundsten. She went swimming in a lake and was fascinated by the water and communicated with the algae or something. When she emerged, she was the Slime Queen, high priestess of the Pranksters.

My own experience with water was when I decided to run out in the rain. Usually we are hung up about getting wet...it was totally fascinating and very sobering as if it washed away all the nonsense. I didn't get a nick name and nobody filmed it. Even today, I rarely use an umbrella.


also, that was an actual picture as it was taking place.