The 3rd Anti-Christ THE ULTIMATE LOGIC BENDER

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

You have to understand that His ultimate gift to you is Free Will.

Yes. You are free to do things god's way, or suffer his wrath. That's not free will, that's coercion.

One reaps what one sows. Aren't you bringing it down on yourself? The bible talks repeatedly about God's goodness and mercy and forgiveness, and about the rewards of leading a righteous life.

If you go murder someone and then face a punishment, who's fault is it? The police? God? Society?
Aren't you the one responsible?

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

You have to understand that His ultimate gift to you is Free Will.

Yes. You are free to do things god's way, or suffer his wrath. That's not free will, that's coercion.

I don't believe in the 'Hell' story, and it's distinct lack of discussion in the many assembled stories in the Bible leads me to think there is no 'Hell' and thus no 'wrath'.

I agree. I think there is karma or some form of punishment for one's misdeeds, but I don't believe in a God who would
eternally condemn someone.

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

I don't believe in the 'Hell' story, and it's distinct lack of discussion in the many assembled stories in the Bible leads me to think there is no 'Hell' and thus no 'wrath'.

Although Bible depicts Hell as a place of punishment, the reality is that Hell is a place of purification. Purification by fire. The prize for the saved ones is to keep the knowledge and consciousness of what will happen.

Revelation 20:14 and 15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

originally posted by: ColeYounger

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

There are philosophy scholars who believe Epicurus said this in an attempt to get people to think beyond there dogmatic beliefs. Atheists like to quote it because for some reason they think it disproves God.

It doesn't disprove god, but it shows the contradiction that is the Abrahamic God (yes they are all the same god, deal with it).

a reply to: ViciLaw

How would you establish free will except by allowing choices?

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

Epicurius is abstracting and objectifying evil as a 'thing' in itself.

Evil is an intention to commit antisocial, immoral or harmful actions. It is dependent on an evil doer (or thinker) and is a conscious choice.

In that light, God allows for the existence of evil through the granting of free will and the existence of the a framework in which evil may be done (the world).

This does not equate with God 'creating' evil or doing evil.

originally posted by: ViciLaw

originally posted by: JessicaRabbitTx
a reply to: ViciLaw

The major monotheistic religions can't wait for this beautiful, mysterious, amazing planet to end in fire and bloodshed. They pray for the day to come sooner rather than later. It's sickening.
I'm not afraid of an antichrist. I'm afraid of my beautiful home being destroyed by psychotic religious barbarians for an imaginary murderer who lives in the clouds.

Man sometimes I wish I could destroy all religions and let science take the wheel

Can you imagine how much better the world would be

More cures, possibly personal space crafts,people live longer, no more wars over primitive beliefs

OH YEAH......Because science has gotten so far already...Wait, according to you religion is holding science back from "more cures, personal space crafts, people living longer and no more wars" over religion....Whew, religion is seriously holding back science!! Since science has proven what this all is and how it came to be....Oh wait, no it didn't and can't because your beloved "science" has no answer because the answer is right in front of you and you don't want to believe in it...

/sarcasm/rant/crazy science theories.....You science freaks are worse than religion at times!

originally posted by: JessicaRabbitTx
a reply to: ViciLaw

The major monotheistic religions can't wait for this beautiful, mysterious, amazing planet to end in fire and bloodshed. They pray for the day to come sooner rather than later. It's sickening.
I'm not afraid of an antichrist. I'm afraid of my beautiful home being destroyed by psychotic religious barbarians for an imaginary murderer who lives in the clouds.

You have it totally wrong, most Christians hope for heaven, a perfected existence where evil, sickness, pain and death do not exist and where consciousness and happiness is eternal.

This is not dependent upon the state of this world.

Yes, an end of this flawed world is mentioned, but that is just incidental, you need to read to the end of the book.

It all gets replaced with Universe version 2.0, which fixes some major bugs in version 1.

I wish people would actually read the bible before pronouncing...
In that book" God" tells you directly that he DID create evil......
But its all hypothetical in my book...
If God exists then youll never figure him out.....
The whole is so obfuscated by now id rather believe in comic books.....

For all of you who are blinded by science.

Science can explain how something work, but science cannot specifically identify the creator of something. example, Science can explain how an engine works, but the scientific process cannot identify the engineer of the engine.

originally posted by: ViciLaw
If you believe in religion and God you know that everything has been created by God and planned by God.

So the 3rd Anti-Christ is of Gods plan?

Does that mean he or she is a necessary evil that is meant to be released upon this world?

Does that not mean that the Devil,Satan,Lucifer or whatever we call the so called adversary was a predetermined rebellious angel ?

Does this not mean God allowed evil in the first place and planned the whole thing?

It is rather THE ULTIMATE LOGIC BENDER!

Because if you think of it Angels had no freewill so The Adversary was meant to rebel as it was predetermined by Gods plan.

Religion either contradicts itself or God is one sick and twisted individual who is making us play the game for his,her's or its amusement.

The problem you are having is using flawed human values and perspectives to try and understand God's motives for the way things are happening.

I understand things enough to know that God cannot do any evil thing and he never has. Does that mean I like the way things happen? No. Would things be better if he just waved his hand early on and made all the bad go away forever? Sure, but would it serve his ultimate purpose? Lucifer first became in disagreement with God when God revealed that us crazy humans were going to become something much greater one day. How can that ever happen and sound reasonable? Only by understanding that in order for that to happen, each person who wanted to participate in God's will could do so if they followed his will by choice and commitment and many other things.
The devil didn't want the likes of humankind to even be considered for such a thing, and it does seem like a lofty goal to expect any human to be able to get even halfway there doesn't it?
If Lucifer would have trusted God for whatever he had in mind, things might have turned out a lot different.

I'll bet that some day, many humans will also say "if only I had trusted God for whatever he had in mind, my fate might have been different"

I know already that God is indeed good, kind, and joyful in his attitude, and always loving. I choose to trust him and in doing so, I will strive to make sure my fate does not turn out like someone who does not trust him. It isn't easy. What is easy in this world is to condemn and judge others who also condemn and judge us, and watch ourselves fall right into perdition.

originally posted by: ViciLaw

originally posted by: JessicaRabbitTx
a reply to: ViciLaw

The major monotheistic religions can't wait for this beautiful, mysterious, amazing planet to end in fire and bloodshed. They pray for the day to come sooner rather than later. It's sickening.
I'm not afraid of an antichrist. I'm afraid of my beautiful home being destroyed by psychotic religious barbarians for an imaginary murderer who lives in the clouds.

Man sometimes I wish I could destroy all religions and let science take the wheel

Can you imagine how much better the world would be

More cures, possibly personal space crafts,people live longer, no more wars over primitive beliefs

There would be no Red Cross or other charities (a lot of hospitals would close because of insufficient funding), laws would be absolute and unjust, there would be no legal mercy. Wars would still be fought over resources and power (other than the Crusades, name one specific war that was about religion). Eugenics would be back on the agenda.

Personal space craft are a spiffy idea but useless to you if you have been assessed as a waste of resources and 'recycled'.

Also, do you think that religion is slowing the current rate of technological development?

What happens when all that grant money for public and non commercial projects (think the LHC, Astronomy and other big science), from largely Christian sources, dries up? Will the wheels turn faster then?

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

You have to understand that His ultimate gift to you is Free Will.

Yes. You are free to do things god's way, or suffer his wrath. That's not free will, that's coercion.

Have you been wrathed lately?

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

I don't believe in the 'Hell' story, and it's distinct lack of discussion in the many assembled stories in the Bible leads me to think there is no 'Hell' and thus no 'wrath'.

Although Bible depicts Hell as a place of punishment, the reality is that Hell is a place of purification. Purification by fire. The prize for the saved ones is to keep the knowledge and consciousness of what will happen.

Revelation 20:14 and 15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Nope, fire doesn't cleanse, it burns up. In the Biblical setting, it was understood that it permanently disposes of rubbish.

Also, nothing there says the "lake of fire" is eternal, either.

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

Peace

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

I don't believe in the 'Hell' story, and it's distinct lack of discussion in the many assembled stories in the Bible leads me to think there is no 'Hell' and thus no 'wrath'.

Although Bible depicts Hell as a place of punishment, the reality is that Hell is a place of purification. Purification by fire. The prize for the saved ones is to keep the knowledge and consciousness of what will happen.

Revelation 20:14 and 15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Nope, fire doesn't cleanse, it burns up. In the Biblical setting, it was understood that it permanently disposes of rubbish.

Also, nothing there says the "lake of fire" is eternal, either.

Energy and matter don't get destroy, they transform (change). Ashes can be use as fertilizer for plant growth. Also through fire you can recover metals and other types of minerals and nutrients.
So is a way of purification, turning something bad into something good or useful.

originally posted by: Seed76

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

[pic snipped by Railgun for brevity]

Peace

Do you as a single person have the power to singlehandedly end all these things? I venture to say that no one single person alive today or in the past had this power. It would take a global dictator, or the action of either some Extra-Terrestrial species or divine being to end the strife on this planet. My parents told me I do anything I wanted as well, but when I grew up I realized that I as a single person can do little to help. I volunteer occasionally, and give to charity, but I don't have the power to end all strife. Do you?

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Abednego

originally posted by: noeltrotsky

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: noeltrotsky

I don't believe in the 'Hell' story, and it's distinct lack of discussion in the many assembled stories in the Bible leads me to think there is no 'Hell' and thus no 'wrath'.

Although Bible depicts Hell as a place of punishment, the reality is that Hell is a place of purification. Purification by fire. The prize for the saved ones is to keep the knowledge and consciousness of what will happen.

Revelation 20:14 and 15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.

Nope, fire doesn't cleanse, it burns up. In the Biblical setting, it was understood that it permanently disposes of rubbish.

Also, nothing there says the "lake of fire" is eternal, either.

Energy and matter don't get destroy, they transform (change). Ashes can be use as fertilizer for plant growth. Also through fire you can recover metals and other types of minerals and nutrients.
So is a way of purification, turning something bad into something good or useful.

Fair enough, but it is a modern abstraction away from what would have been understood at the time that text actually says.

Depends on your version of religion. Usually God is displayed as a teacher of sorts, but how this is done depends on your version.
You got the original Torah God, whom got his kicks of teaching of low lifes in hell, where it just the beginning of their eternal suffering and a reward for their sin.

Then you got the Jesus version of God, who teaches people they could do whatever but have to accept responsibility for their actions , or how "Heaven is like a Farmer who works hard to plant healthy seeds."

And in that version, Satan the one who teaches low lifes not to sin...Ever again because life would of been better if they just listened to Jesus.

Then there Mohammed and Allah, who seem very scared of Satan, or Ilbis

originally posted by: ScientificRailgun
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

The best analogy to God, which is used frequently in the Bible, is that we are his children. If you never allowed anything bad to ever happen to your children, did everything for them, never let them make a decision of their own, how good of a parent would you be? You'd be raising robots. If God wanted a population of robots he would have made them. He doesn't even want angels to be robots, as they have free will also.