What "American Sniper" Was Really About

Aside from whether this war or any war is valid/invalid from any point, the longer view presented for us was that he was a master of his art. And as any art does, it took its toll on the master. The movie wasn’t about ideology, it was about a single man attempting to be true to his values within the framework of his life. Who has the right to condemn him and on what grounds?

a reply to: Aliensun

Its about a Man that goes to war and becomes a sniper.

Why does there need to be a subcontext?

My Thread About American Sniper

The movie is NOT a propaganda piece for war or recruiting. It's about a man who became a Navy Seal to serve his country in time of war and it's about the emotional and physical toll that comes with serving in the military in those situations.

I've found that the loudest voices whining about the movie are those who haven't actually bothered to see it. Partisan nonsense.

originally posted by: FlyersFan
My Thread About American Sniper

The movie is NOT a propaganda piece for war or recruiting. It's about a man who became a Navy Seal to serve his country in time of war and it's about the emotional and physical toll that comes with serving in the military in those situations.

I've found that the loudest voices whining about the movie are those who haven't actually bothered to see it. Partisan nonsense.

How do you know he didn't join to kill people because he enjoyed killing? Just asking.

originally posted by: Aliensun
Aside from whether this war or any war is valid/invalid from any point, the longer view presented for us was that he was a master of his art. And as any art does, it took its toll on the master. The movie wasn’t about ideology, it was about a single man attempting to be true to his values within the framework of his life. Who has the right to condemn him and on what grounds?

Killing people is not art and to make the comparison is just plain wrong and inhuman. And all this sniper was, was a good puppy obeying his master, the ultimate sucker, glorified for being ignorant.

Remove the pawns from war and there are only kings who cannot and will not get their hands dirty.

a reply to: nerbot

This right here.

originally posted by: Tangerine
How do you know he didn't join to kill people because he enjoyed killing? Just asking.

How do you know he did? Just asking.
Taken at face value, it was a patriotic join up.
Anything else negative is partisan assumption at this point.

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Aliensun
Aside from whether this war or any war is valid/invalid from any point, the longer view presented for us was that he was a master of his art. And as any art does, it took its toll on the master. The movie wasn’t about ideology, it was about a single man attempting to be true to his values within the framework of his life. Who has the right to condemn him and on what grounds?

Killing people is not art and to make the comparison is just plain wrong and inhuman. And all this sniper was, was a good puppy obeying his master, the ultimate sucker, glorified for being ignorant.

Remove the pawns from war and there are only kings who cannot and will not get their hands dirty.

Ahhh yes. The age old "if nobody would fight, there'd be no wars."

Response: if you don't know how to kill, or are unable to kill, you will always be subject to those who can.

Spouting the belief that if only people would just be peaceful and hug it out goes against human nature. You can disarm entire countries and entire militaries. Somebody will come along to take advantage of it.

Personally I don't fully buy into the hero worship with Kyle. But I'm not going to say well the war was wrong so that dismisses every act of heroism that happened.

True to what? Exaggerations and lies? Sure he killed many, but he was a story teller. Who knows what the truth is? Another reason it is a propaganda movie. If ISIS propagated it's snipers would you be as proud of their accomplishments? Illegal false flag wars anyways. He is a criminal and so are those that directed him. You might say Russia is a bad guy for protecting it's citizens and strategic territory that it held for decades and they voted to become part of Russia. What part of America are they protecting there? Money and politics. America wants to be like Rome was. Rule as much as possible. Start with fixing this country with the trillions spent there. Defend our shores and land not theirs. 900+ military bases around the world in over 100 countries. USA is the new NAZI party taking over. Terrorists pillaging nations.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Spouting the belief that if only people would just be peaceful and hug it out goes against human nature. You can disarm entire countries and entire militaries. Somebody will come along to take advantage of it.

You seem to prove my point about being a good puppy So you support your masters while I don't.

Sorry if my idealistic point of view doesn't fit in with prehistoric mentality. Time to realise we are no longer cavemen and should evolve to be more civilized people perhaps?......you know, the ones so many claim to be but don't have the mentality or strength to show it.

I thought it was pretty boring really and the set peices weren't done very well.

And like someone else said, it felt like I was watching the propaganda movies Inglorious Bastards.

The man himself was one of those dinosaurs that clings onto the idea of the wild west and acts asthough it still hads to be won...

a reply to: Aliensun

** to become a master of ones art (anything) is the linguistic meaning of "kung fu", but westerners tend to use that term only for "Wu Shu" (martial art). but my friend, do not put the application to "war" aside. which art is it better for your Karma (next life, if not this one) to concentrate on : the Art of Peacemaking, or the Art of Killing ? now think about WHY the snipers pursuits "took its toll on his thoughts about his own family back home" ? i give you the answer, because killing is a final judgement in earth situations - what if you are wrong, and kill the wrong person, is that not murder ? he was excellent marksman no doubt, but remember Muhammed Ali who protested " i dont hate no vietnam man, i aint goin to other side of world to kill nobody". the government wanted to brand him a coward !!! but mr.Ali was world champion not only of Boxing, but of Morality and Common Sense as well - are you ? so you see, the Snipers conscience was warning him : "do you really want to kill ? is that man an enemy of yours ? he has got wife and kids just like you. he is fighting to defend them with LESS weapons than you. is it not cowardice to pick him off at 2000 yards, with no chance of fair fight ? so the Sniper thought and thought, until one day he will collapse with Guilt - or suicide like 40,000 vets who have returned since Nam. do you want to scream on your eventual death-bed as you see visions of women and children burning to death covered in napalm that YOU dropped on them - because you were told to ? only kill if the victim really deserved it, and you got no choice. otherwise beware my friend, what goes around comes around. re-incarnation will get you .... finally, is it wise to "serve ones country", when the government are Criminal Banker Idiots that foreclosed on half million homes, and you spend all day on ats criticising ? remember mr.Ali goodluck Kaman.

a reply to: Shamrock6

Direct self defense and war are two very separate things. While one might have to directly defend themselves during war, war is not necessary to act in only direct self defense.

War is a widespread social mental illness that does nothing to protect the majority of regular people. Take the case of WW2 as an example. That war had casualties with estimates of around 60 million people. The world population in 1939 was a total of 2-2.5 billion. The widespread mental illness of war is even more apparent when you take into consideration a number like 60 million in relation to a population of 2.5 billion.

To take war related violence and paint it as artistic, heroic, or noble in any way is just evil and quite frankly counterproductive.

Whether your reason for battle is to fight for freedom, the motherland, the fatherland, the gods, the goddess, yahweh, the church, or any other invisible third party...you are still participating in an institution(yes war is one of the oldest "institutions" in history) that has resulted in billions of deaths of regular citizens throughout history.

The biggest joke of all is when people state that to have life and liberty you must participate in something called war. Historically it's been the greatest threat to both life and liberty of regular people. By not realizing this, people are blindly participating in a murder machine that exists to benefit a few asset holders at the expense of their life.

If you realize this and still support war for whatever reason, fine. But don't say that war is human nature.

Human nature is to live, #, breath, have sex, socialize and reproduce. If your body is rotting in a trench somewhere you are doing none of those things. War is completely against reason and human nature.

If someone comes up and attacks you, of course you will defend yourself. But war is just a machine that does nothing but result in the loss of massive lives(aka, collateral) that get lost in the pages of history while the war heroes have statues built and the leaders add even more assets to their growing collection.

You are all wrong....this is what the movie is about.

boxofficemojo.com...

In that context, the movie is a masterpiece.

originally posted by: nerbot

originally posted by: Shamrock6
Spouting the belief that if only people would just be peaceful and hug it out goes against human nature. You can disarm entire countries and entire militaries. Somebody will come along to take advantage of it.

You seem to prove my point about being a good puppy

So you support your masters while I don't.

Sorry if my idealistic point of view doesn't fit in with prehistoric mentality. Time to realise we are no longer cavemen and should evolve to be more civilized people perhaps?......you know, the ones so many claim to be but don't have the mentality or strength to show it.

I'm sorry, I proved what now? That I understand basic human nature better than you do?

Yea, I guess I do.

a reply to: OrphanApology

Yea no, conflict has existed along side everything you mentioned as "human nature" ever since the first dude realized he could mess up the other guy's face by beating it with his fist. To pretend otherwise is willful ignorance.

originally posted by: Hoosierdaddy71
You are all wrong....this is what the movie is about.

boxofficemojo.com...

In that context, the movie is a masterpiece.

I haven't seen the movie yet, so can't and won't comment on the movie....but...am wondering if Jessie Ventura will try to get his grubby hands on that $ too?

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: OrphanApology

Yea no, conflict has existed along side everything you mentioned as "human nature" ever since the first dude realized he could mess up the other guy's face by beating it with his fist. To pretend otherwise is willful ignorance.

I am reminded of the opening scene from Space Odyssey.

As for American Sniper..

I got bored and fell asleep. I don't see it as propaganda though.

If anything the message to take to heart is probably about veterans.

And how they go through some intense stuff (right or wrong).

More importantly how they cope with it when they return.

And how society treats or views them.

E.g. Not understanding what they went through.

PTSD is some really rough stuff.

We know a 'Nam vet who can't be too close to choppers or chopper sounds because of the things they remind him of.

a reply to: Prezbo369

It seems to me that some people missed the scene where he had to hold his nerve with his finger ready on the trigger when a boy of around 10 to 12 picked up a Grenade Launcher and was very close to firing it, only to lose his nerve. Sniper had to release the trigger pressure when he was just about to pull it..

a reply to: Aliensun

While I haven't seen it yet, (waiting for release on DVD/Blu-ray/whatever) based on a few reviews I've read, the opening scene touches on parts of a brilliant essay by LTC (RET) Dave Grossman which influenced Kyle's moral code heavily.


I'll leave some key snippets, but I really can't recommend reading the whole thing highly enough.
On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

"Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age. It does so because honor is, finally, about defending those noble and worthy things that deserve defending, even if it comes at a high cost. In our time, that may mean social disapproval, public scorn, hardship, persecution, or as always, even death itself. The question remains: What is worth defending? What is worth dying for? What is worth living for? - William J. Bennett - in a lecture to the United States Naval Academy November 24, 1997

One Vietnam veteran, an old retired colonel, once said this to me:

"Most of the people in our society are sheep. They are kind, gentle, productive creatures who can only hurt one another by accident." This is true. Remember, the murder rate is six per 100,000 per year, and the aggravated assault rate is four per 1,000 per year. What this means is that the vast majority of Americans are not inclined to hurt one another.
[...]
Thus there is a paradox, and we must grasp both ends of the situation: We may well be in the most violent times in history, but violence is still remarkably rare. This is because most citizens are kind, decent people who are not capable of hurting each other, except by accident or under extreme provocation. They are sheep.

I mean nothing negative by calling them sheep. To me it is like the pretty, blue robin's egg. Inside it is soft and gooey but someday it will grow into something wonderful. But the egg cannot survive without its hard blue shell. Police officers, soldiers, and other warriors are like that shell, and someday the civilization they protect will grow into something wonderful. For now, though, they need warriors to protect them from the predators.

"Then there are the wolves," the old war veteran said, "and the wolves feed on the sheep without mercy." Do you believe there are wolves out there who will feed on the flock without mercy? You better believe it. There are evil men in this world and they are capable of evil deeds. The moment you forget that or pretend it is not so, you become a sheep. There is no safety in denial.

"Then there are sheepdogs," he went on, "and I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf."

If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep. If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf. But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.

The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours.

Still, the sheepdog disturbs the sheep. He is a constant reminder that there are wolves in the land. They would prefer that he didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16. The sheep would much rather have the sheepdog cash in his fangs, spray paint himself white, and go, "Baa."

Until the wolf shows up. Then the entire flock tries desperately to hide behind one lonely sheepdog.
[...]
Their only response to the wolf, though, is denial, and all too often their response to the sheepdog is scorn and disdain. But the sheepdog quietly asks himself, "Do you have and idea how hard it would be to live with yourself if your loved ones attacked and killed, and you had to stand there helplessly because you were unprepared for that day?"

It is denial that turns people into sheep. Sheep are psychologically destroyed by combat because their only defense is denial, which is counterproductive and destructive, resulting in fear, helplessness and horror when the wolf shows up.

Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear helplessness and horror at your moment of truth.

Gavin de Becker puts it like this in Fear Less, his superb post-9/11 book, which should be required reading for anyone trying to come to terms with our current world situation: "...denial can be seductive, but it has an insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when faced with new violence is all the more unsettling."

Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level.