Is marijuana really as dangerous as heroin and LSD? Finally, a welcome legal review

a reply to: pl3bscheese

Are you trying to say that heroine addicts can't get heroine nearly as easy as alcoholics can get alcohol? I bet it's pretty even, considering most cities have hours in which you can't purchase it. Yet another fail.

Yeah, the next time I go to Speedway to get a King Cobra for $1.99, I'll be sure to pick up a balloon of heroin for the same price...

Alcohol is easy to get, just go to your local convenience store.

Oh, and alcoholics know which days they can't buy alcohol, so they buy enough to get through those days. Heroin users would do the same.

Alcohol is cheap because it's legal. Heroin is not cheap because it's illegal. Alcohol can be bought and stocked-up because it's legal and we have large supplies of it. Heroin addicts can spend days trying to find heroin out of the 25 dealers they know.

I'm sorry, but there is no parallel.

No they haven't. I challenge you to back this up with the data.

In some Scandinavian countries, a heroin addict can go to a hospital and get a free shot of heroin. Those countries don't have issues with addicts robbing people to get heroin, and their addiction rates have gone down.

a reply to: pl3bscheese

The crime rates associated with heroin happen exactly because it IS illegal and thus has an inflated, arbitrary price set by the black market monopoly... thus it's expensive and thus addicts who have to get some twice a day are locked out of much employment, due to time... no convenient corner store, or equivalent, where they can get it anytime... unlike alcohol.

The countries that have legalized (or at least decriminalized) it have cheaper, steady access to the opiates and the petty crimes long associated with heroin addiction have plummeted... see Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal... if my memory is serving me today.

I don't advocate someone even trying opiates due to the horrible addictive properties, but as far as harm to the body from ingesting it, it's one of the less harmful drugs out there... the harm comes from people having to inject it as they can only afford to buy tiny amounts and the impurities due to poor manufacturing and adulterating.

With prescription opiates saturating the U.S. (and world), this scourge will only get worse... and as opiates seem to change one's dna once addicted, it's a life long condition. Education, healthcare and mercy are the proper responses, because once addiction happens, no law will deter the addict from seeking it... not even a death penalty.

ETA and if provided with a cheap, steady source of their addiction, opiate addicts act just like normal people.

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originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: pl3bscheese

The crime rates associated with heroin happen exactly because it IS illegal and thus has an inflated, arbitrary price set by the black market monopoly... thus it's expensive and thus addicts who have to get some twice a day are locked out of much employment, due to time... no convenient corner store, or equivalent, where they can get it anytime... unlike alcohol.

I get that this seems true. Did you catch my earlier post where I mentioned the price for marijuana where it has been legalized compared to before? It seems to be a bit cheaper, but not by much. If I recall correctly, about a 20% drop from the street price. I may be off here.

The second bit of your reasoning, I don't buy in the least. Someone can purchase enough to last them a day. Time spent scoring is not the source of unemployment with addicts.

The countries that have legalized (or at least decriminalized) it have cheaper, steady access to the opiates and the petty crimes long associated with heroin addiction have plummeted... see Denmark, Switzerland, Portugal... if my memory is serving me today.

You know, I've done a bit of research over the years. I'd suggest people take in multiple sources and not weigh in favor the ones which support their beliefs. I don't think the truth is as easily worded. It seems to be a bit more complex. There is steady access to opiates in this country by legal means. No, it's not called, "heroine" but it's definitely opiates. Unless you have insurance, and depending on which country we're talking about, the prices are still overall a bit pricey. If you could show me some legitimate sources which back your claims, I'll take an honest look. I'm always open to learning. Thanks!

I don't advocate someone even trying opiates due to the horrible addictive properties, but as far as harm to the body from ingesting it, it's one of the less harmful drugs out there... the harm comes from people having to inject it as they can only afford to buy tiny amounts and the impurities due to poor manufacturing and adulterating.

Well I'd have to disagree with you on this one as well. If we are to put much weight in the notion that telomere length is a fair indication of health relative to one's aged controls, opiates actually fair the worst. Their length is considerably shorter than controls. Marijuana users actually are one of the least shortened compared to controls. Total win there! I'll try to dig up the source for you. It lists both legal and illegal opiates used.

I found this one quickly. It's not the one I was referencing, but does show diazepam and heroine users fair worse than the rest of drug users.
Link

With prescription opiates saturating the U.S., this scourge will only get worse... and as opiates seem to change one's dna , it's a life long condition. Education and mercy are the proper responses, because once addition happens, no law will deter the addict from seeking it... not even a death penalty.

Okay, so I'm going to agree with all of this here. The mind of an addict has been warped considerably, regardless of where they started. It's very sad an unfortunate. That doesn't mean someone doesn't have a right to feel wronged by addicts, but a bit of education can help them to have some empathy for the afflicted, and learn to forgive for their own sake, if nothing more. I do think education is best. I'm trying to do my part, and I see you are as well. Good on you! Another thing which is quite unfortunate, is a trend I read about a few years ago now, where individuals who may start off with a genuine need for prescription opiates, get addicted, then either their insurance runs out, else the price prohibits them from seeking legal sources. People can go from things like oxycontin to mainlining heroine. That's just so tragic.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

You do realize there are legal alternatives to heroine with somewhat comparable effects. These legal alternatives don't have this vastly reduced price you speak of. I can't bother to pick apart your poor reasoning anymore. Sorry guy, it's just not worth it.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese
a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

You do realize there are legal alternatives to heroine with somewhat comparable effects. These legal alternatives don't have this vastly reduced price you speak of. I can't bother to pick apart your poor reasoning anymore. Sorry guy, it's just not worth it.

The legal alternatives are expensive because of the process required to make them.

It's pretty easy to make heroin from opium, it would be just as cheap as alcohol.

You're comparing apples and oranges and then telling me that I can't reason. Irony.

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon

The legal alternatives are expensive because of the process required to make them.

It's pretty easy to make heroin from opium, it would be just as cheap as alcohol.

You're comparing apples and oranges and then telling me that I can't reason. Irony.

Since you are so certain of this, I will ask you a second time to provide data proving this claim. This is my second challenge to you. Let's see if you can actually have an intellectual debate. If not, end of discussion with you.

originally posted by: pl3bscheese

Since you are so certain of this, I will ask you a second time to provide data proving this claim. This is my second challenge to you. Let's see if you can actually have an intellectual debate. If not, end of discussion with you.

Producing Heroin: So easy, an undergraduate can do it.

In his book, Opium A History, Martin Booth describes the process: "First, equal quantities of morphine and acetic anhydride are heated in a glass or enamel-lined container for six hours at 85ÉC. The morphine and the acid combine to form impure diacetylmorphine. Second, water and chloroform are added to the solution to precipitate impurities. The solution is drained and sodium carbonate added to make the heroin solidify and sink. Third, the heroin is filtered out of the sodium carbonate solution with activated charcoal and purified with alcohol. [Fourth,] this solution is gently heated to evaporate the alcohol and leave heroin, which may be purified further ..."


Heroin No. 4
Purification in the fourth stage, involving ether and hydrochloric acid, is notoriously risky. "In the hands of a careless chemist the volatile ether gas may ignite and produce a violent explosion that can level a clandestine laboratory," writes McCoy. The final product is a fluffy, white powder known in the trade as number four heroin.

The info is from PBS and they're being dramatic. Anyone with an associates degree in organic chemistry can produce cheap heroin without blowing themselves up from improper ether handling.

The cost of methadone

Methadone treatment is also highly cost-effective. According to the New York Academy of Medicine, the lifetime Medicaid cost for each injecting drug user with AIDS is about $109,000. In contrast, one year of methadone treatment costs about $5,000 per patient.

It would be easy for private industry to produce cheap heroin that would only cost the user $2,500/year (that would be half the cost of a year of methadone).

I could make it myself and charge $10.00 an ounce. That would be super cheap.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Thanks for the links. I didn't dispute making the heroine as being relatively simple, rather the actual cost declining significantly by simply legalizing it. This seems to indicate otherwise. I stand corrected, and starred your post.

Now, we've gotten far off track from the point of this thread. I don't know why I was even brought into debate on this issue. I've made it clear in this thread and the other pro-drug threads on this site that I'm for decriminalization and legalization. I usually jump in to say my bits about the problems with addiction. My main concern is getting people a more balanced point of view. This site is a bit skewed. My guess is the demographics has shifted a bit in recent years. No worries. To be clear (for about the dozenth time now on this site), I think there's more good than harm that would come from decriminalization, and legalization of all drugs; however, this won't solve addiction, and will in large part simply transfer control of who is pushing these substances. There's reasoning on both sides as to why this should and shouldn't be done. I'm of the opinion that it's an overall win.

I decided to look elsewhere. You must take into consideration that the quote compared the cost of medicare for heroine users with aids to methadone users. There's a few things to note here.

1. not all heroine users acquire aids.
2. there's no good reason to think methadone users have significantly less prevalence of aids.
3. the difference in prevalence between the two groups, and the resulting health care increases, may not make up for the cost increase in methadone vs heroine.

Here is a link I found:

Heroine Cheaper and more Effecive for Heroine Users

The new analysis showed that even though heroin treatment can be as much as ten times more expensive than methadone, lifetime social costs related to chronic addiction were cut by an average of $40,000 Canadian for each of these previously untreatable heroin patients. The research also suggested that addicted people given heroin under medical supervision would live a year longer on average than those in methadone treatment.

The differences are mainly due to the fact that heroin therapy tends to keep patients in treatment for much longer periods of time. This leads to larger drops in drug use and crime, and improved health. The new analysis extrapolated lifetime costs for both types of treatment based on the clinical trial results and earlier research on the costs of repeat treatment sessions when patients relapsed.

So the thought is that heroine is clearly less expensive than methadone, more effective in keeping addicts in "treatment", and leads to social benefits overall. More for the legalization, best I can tell. Cool.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I think America should be exactly what it stood for....a free country where an individual has complete free reign over his body and as long as he doesn't hurt or impede anyone else NO ONE has the right to tell him what he can do to his own body. It's freaking amazing that these bureaucrats can deny MJ as a medicine when the freaking US government patented it as one. God I swear we are a country ruled by the dumbest, most shallow, greedy, scheming bastards denying the people their rights. Give the USA to be ran by anyone on ATS for one day and we will have a utopia!

a reply to: Diisenchanted

How does that not make sense? Really?

Heres how. You said…

You are misrepresenting addiction. Not all addictions deal with substances! What about gambling and sex addictions?

The substance isn't what one is addicted to, its the feeling, the high one gets from "it". Thats the draw. Whether its the high from weed, gambling, sex or whatever, its the feeling that cause us to become addicted to it. And why not? Everyone wants to feel good, right?

Abuse comes in when that high is the only thing that satisfies anymore. When all other things become secondary, like job, family, friends, then thats abusive. Thats addiction to the "feeling" and abuse that leads to failure, eventually. Its a cycle, a process where more and more satisfies less and less until we hit bottom. For some that happens right away, others it takes a life time. For still others theres no problem, they are in control of their substance "use" and do it only on occasion.

a reply to: intrptr

The substance isn't what one is addicted to, its the feeling, the high one gets from "it". Thats the draw.

This is completely false. All opiate-based drugs directly affect the user's body. After the prolonged use of heroin, or morphine, or oxycotnin, or percosets--the user's body stops producing opiate chemicals that it naturally creates.

It's the body stopping the production of it's own opiates that causes heroin withdrawal. This form of addiction is called physical addiction. The body becomes dependent on the heroin to supply it with the opiates it needs to function.

Detoxing is the process of keeping heroin out of the user, this causes the body to begin opiate production again, but it takes time, and the process can kill the person.

The form of addiction that you are describing is called psychological addiction. That's when a drug does not cause physical dependency and the user just likes the sensation of getting high.

Psychological addiction will not kill you and does not hurt.

a reply to: LewsTherinThelamon

Psychological addiction will not kill you and does not hurt.

Tell that to an addict, lol.

My comments were directed at "becoming addicted", not trying to quit. I don't disagree with the physical withdrawal symptoms of Heroin addiction you described, I wasn't talking about that. Quitting drugs is easy, anyone can "quit". Staying quit is the problem. Most addicts relapse and that battle is all psychological. The real battle, imo.

a reply to: intrptr

The statistics are pretty clear. It's about a 5% recovery rate defined as longer than a year, regardless of the system one has chosen to put faith into.

People are genuinely fearful of the physical withdrawal symptoms, and with good reason. You can go into an epiliptic fit and die. The thing is that the sheer duration of the psychological symptoms is what ends recovery for most people. Not only this, the pangs come in waves. Sometimes you're aware of the trigger, often times many people are not. I spent a lot of time last year in online support groups for addicts. Overall I'd have to agree, while the acute symptoms of physical addiction are more intense, the accumulative stress from PAWS over time is a larger issue for people in recovery.

Psychological addiction most certainly hurts. One of the things addicts have to address is their tendency to suppress emotional issues with mind-altering substances. This only builds a reserve of issues that must eventually be faced once the recovery process starts. Something that may compound this is the overlap between psychological disorders and drug addiction. This is a bit chicken and egg, and the statistics are not all too clear on the actual numbers here. Point being, people who might otherwise have moderate bipolar or borderline had they never touched drugs, and have to intensely deal with stressors one at a time, now has this bunch of issues to process pretty much all at once. Yea, that's quite difficult for some of the people in recovery. Still, that little release people get after they cry, or in some other way release an emotional issue... well it seems the release can be greater as well. Overall, the experience is one of increased intensity alternating with bouts of apathy... If I had one word to describe it most accurately: crazy.

God I wish this thread would die

Every time i skim the recent posts it's here

To think that ANYONE would compare l.s.d. and herb to heroin is disturbing to no end

It just makes me think the brainwashing of unthinking Americans is complete.

Hell I'm to afraid to read this thread as i just have a feeling the amount of bs being pushed is off the charts

L.s.d. and herb are NOTHING LIKE HEROIN

Nothing

Just ask anyone who has o.ded on l.s.d or pot

Then go ask the corpse of a heroin user

Ugg just let this nonsense die

Pro pot propagandists will say anything to downplay the harmful effects of weed. It doesn't fit their agenda for legalization. I smoked the stuff for years my entire family smokes the stuff. I have an aunt that smoked it since the 60's. I've seen plenty of damage caused from the stuff. Marijuana is a mind altering psychoactive substance. Just because no ones ever overdosed does not make it harmless. The only people pushing for legalization are the addicts and people that want to profit from it or those naive enough to believe the addicts. I know 2 types of addicts those that can't function without being stoned from the time they wake up until the time they go to sleep. The other is stoned from the time they get off work until they go to bed. Of all the people I've ever known that smoke weed very few are casual users.

a reply to: wantsome

This post prove my point. And it took less than three min to be posted

Study th indocannibinoid system

You are brainwashed

The end

originally posted by: tothetenthpower

originally posted by: and14263
a reply to: tothetenthpower

I think hemp and MJ are different. Hemp rope, oil, material etc could indeed be our saviour. MJ is the one that gets you whacked out (as my old man would say).

True but they are both the same plant. Advocating for MJ legalization is also advocating Hemp legalization.

That's why it's an important thing to keep in mind. The argument for the removal of MJ as a Schedule A drug is not only a moral argument, or a common sense one, but a huge economic one as well.

~Tenth

It's reasonably easy in England to get a license to grow hemp, a variety of Cannabis with virtually no THC. It's close to impossible to get a license to grow MJ, a variety of cannabis with high levels of THC.

Here's where you get your hemp lic.

Whereas with MJ our government is not down with that.

Even though, in 1998, the Home Office granted GW Pharmaceuticals a license to grow cannabis in order to develop cannabinoid-based medicines, Britain is not following suit. This week, Norman Baker, Lib Dem minister of state for crime prevention, called for more liberalised drug laws, and specifically the legalisation of cannabis grown for medicinal use. A coalition spokesman rejected his suggestion outright: "This government has no plans to legalise cannabis or to soften our approach to its use as a medicine. There is clear scientific and medical evidence that cannabis is a harmful drug which can damage people's mental and physical health."

Source

EDIT: Oh and this:

originally posted by: LewsTherinThelamon
a reply to: intrptr
Psychological addiction will not kill you and does not hurt.

Oh my word!

Is marijuana really as dangerous as heroin and Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?

Just the title of this text shows that the writer has not done his homework.

Apart from the obvious dangers of doing dangerous things such as driving a car or jumping into the bear pit at the zoo while under the influence of any psychoactive substance, lysergic acid or Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds has no scientifically proven health or mental risks.

None whatsoever. If you disagree, please post any peer reviewed scientific study that claims so, and we'll talk it through together.

Cannabis is a very mild psychoactive substance and produces less health risks than coffee.

So is Cannabis as dangerous as Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? I would turn it around and say as harmless as...