A Peaceful and Amicable Request to the President About Religion and the Citizenry

Hey op instead of the President wasting his time making contact with every nation of every faith in America so these people will have a place to go wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier for you to pack your bags and move to a country that is ruled by the religion you follow? The founders have stated many times that this nation was not founded on any belief system because they knew that religion and government was a bad thing.

originally posted by: grandmakdw
Fascinating ideas, not practical, won't happen, but interesting.

Did you know that there is s small movement to create a new nation like Israel, except for Christians. One where Christians can live in peace and live under a Christian theocracy if they so choose.

I'm sure many of you will have a total fit about the possibility. Interestingly it is most likely to be Christian "haters" who will squawk the loudest. I don't know how I feel about it, but one thing I am certain of. If it happens, the nation will be hated on and persecuted as a nation like Israel is. Why? because many atheists so hate Christians that the thought of a Christian theocracy is too much for them to even conceive of allowing to exist in the world.

The reason it is being discussed is because of the horrific persecution of Christians in the Middle East and in many Indonesian and African countries. Our president has openly said the US is not a Christian nation and so persecuted Christians around the world can't expect sanctuary or hope of freedom from persecution from the US.
So where can these Christians go for sanctuary unless a fully Christian theocratic nation is created for them?

Christian "haters", do not deny the deeply dangerous situation for Christians in the Middle East and other predominately Muslim countries, along with the dogmatic communist and faux communist dictatorships around the world.

One would think that a nation created specifically for Christians would make the "haters" happy and be glad to be rid of the Christians in their midst. But that is most likely not going to be the reaction when this tiny movement goes public.

So the OP is interesting in that the exact opposite is being quietly proposed "behind the scenes".

I can see why they would want to do that in Africa, Indonesia and the Middle East. In other countries, it is a death sentence to be a Christian, even until a few years ago, it was dangerous to be a Christian in China.

Maybe the ones against religion in the safe countries can appreciate allowing freedom of religion and stop complaining, because they sure aren't defending the rights of people in other countries.

Richard Dawkins has called for the total abolishment of religions. He isn't, at the same time, defending what the UN has classified a basic human right. People want to end religion because they don't know what a life without religion is actually all about. They believe in some type of utopia, that will never happen. If anything, countries that abolished religion actually denied civil rights to any one and became dystopian.

Total abolition of religion has never been a utopia, once you take away the right of people to express religion, then you take away their right to speak and then you take away their right to breathe freely, because all your allegiance becomes that of the state.

The same way with total state theocracies, when any group is forced to be one thing, they can't exercise their freedom of thought.

There is no utopia in total abolition of religion. Regardless of how people want to paint that picture.

a reply to: WarminIndy

"But people are complaining so much about religion, I just thought they might be happier where there is no religion, so I made a proposal to address their complaints."

This is the age of the internet. We see all religious leaders get on the public media and proclaim how they are all peaceful. We see religious leaders, even preachers getting involved in politics and causing discord. What is the truth or evidence that any religion is one of love and peace? So, yes I have a complaint.

originally posted by: buster2010
Hey op instead of the President wasting his time making contact with every nation of every faith in America so these people will have a place to go wouldn't it just be a whole lot easier for you to pack your bags and move to a country that is ruled by the religion you follow? The founders have stated many times that this nation was not founded on any belief system because they knew that religion and government was a bad thing.

Are you not defending the right to freedom of religious expression?

Sorry that it bothers you so much, but darn it, if you live in the US you have to accept it. You live elsewhere, then meh, follow your own laws.

Shall I post again the Declaration?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Who holds the truth to be self-evident that you are endowed by your Creator with unalienable right? Oh yes, the writers of the Declaration.

Which non-belief system were you referring to?

Hmm, were you saying again they didn't want religion? No, they didn't want a single, particular religion. That's the difference.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

So they didn't invoke a creator nor did they invoke any deity? Yes, they most certainly did. The thing is, they didn't say Christian, Jew or whatever. The point is, they believed that whoever you believe your Creator is, then your Creator endowed you with those rights and whoever your Creator is also is your Providence.

But to say that they did not have religion or did not intend for religion and wanted separation of church and state, they vowed their lives for that purpose.

originally posted by: MOMof3
a reply to: WarminIndy

"But people are complaining so much about religion, I just thought they might be happier where there is no religion, so I made a proposal to address their complaints."

This is the age of the internet. We see all religious leaders get on the public media and proclaim how they are all peaceful. We see religious leaders, even preachers getting involved in politics and causing discord. What is the truth or evidence that any religion is one of love and peace? So, yes I have a complaint.

OK, you have a complaint. Join the millions who also do.

You have to defend their right to do it, if you believe in the Constitution. You might not like it, but as an American you should defend it, because right now a whole lot of soldiers that are all religions and no religions are putting their lives on the line to defend your right to complain.

I gave the option, that is more than just complaining, I offered a solution. But I see you are content with your rights, so be content with ours.

a reply to: WarminIndy

You make some good points.

A totally atheistic nation would have no moral compass and would be guided by:
the trendy, current cultural ideas of what is moral and what is immoral
the best interest of society as a whole
as cultural ideas of morality shift, the laws will shift
individuality will be subsumed by the societal whole
who will dictate values/morals/behavioral standards
which will shift regularly with the cultural winds
(just look at the huge cultural shift in the US in the past
100 years,it happens,
as is the current trend of the pedo culture aiming for
respectability and acceptance)
I find this idea quite frightening

At least with a total theocracy,
as long as immigration in/out is freely allowed
(no adult is forced to stay regardless of gender etc)
the citizens know the moral base
and can choose whether or not to live under
the moral/legal codes which would be clearly defined in the theocracy's revered writings
Some people would also find this frightening,
I don't because the laws,
behavioral standards won't shift with the whims of cultural popularity,
but would be clear and concise.
Which would make the decision to go in or out clear and easy.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Hang in there Warminindy, just a few more years, and you'll have your Utopia, when you're in Heaven. In the meantime, buck up 'lil Christian soldier, you're just going to have to accept the fact that there are non-believers in America, and they have just as many rights as you do.

You're all lost without Bob. How many have been turned into mediocretins just from following TPTB's plan to destroy all religion and replace it with a state-centered system? Religion bashing is part of the plan. Create chaos then introduce the sticky sweet solution. Now imagine if the MSM didn't force feed stories of religious atrocities and hatred down our throats? I'm sure 90% of us would be getting along even if we disagreed.

Is it religion's problem? No, they're herding us towards chaos from division derived from religion. They're essentially using religion as a wedge to divide everyone so when the planet turns sour no one will unite. Religion's not the only tool, there's media, culture, age gaps, class, gender, etc.

Divide and conquer. And Praise Bob.

To windword

And did I say they didn't?

I was wondering why it was taking you so long to get on this thread. Believe it or not, I was just thinking about you and lo and behold, here you are

OK, so what's your problem with the idea? Logistics? Financial? Diplomatic problems?

Good for your two cents, now, tell me what problem you have with the solution offered. You don't like the idea of your non-believing friends given the opportunity to move about freely around the world to a country they would love?

See, you have no utopia promised so here I am offering you one right here on earth and you aren't happy about that either. Is there anything in this world that ultimately makes you happy? You always seem so grumpy when you come to these threads, it's like your purpose in life is to be grumpy toward anyone who says anything about faith.

And here I was defending your rights as a non-believer, geesh, one would think you would be the first to defend the civil rights of someone else. I suppose that you get the luxury of picking and choosing, but believers in America somehow have to defend your unrequited defense. Interesting.

But please, tell me where I said you didn't have rights? I just thought that you would be more happy where there is no religion, but alas, you don't seem happy about that either. Is there nothing in this life that makes you just a little bit happy to be here?

a reply to: WarminIndy

What's the matter? Can't you just wait a few more years, keep that halo polished just a little longer, and all is yours for eternity, right?

Are you really doing God's work, being "Christian" when you call for all non-believers to exit the country? How many converts do you expect to get from this thread? Or, are you looking to start a fight?

a reply to: WarminIndy

In the United States people have the freedom to believe or not believe what they want; they already have freedom of choice.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Without the Declaration, there would be no Constitution.

No, without the intent behind the Declaration, there likely wouldn't have been a Constitution. The Declaration could literally have consisted of "We out!", followed by signatures. The Constitution is the supreme law of the United States, end of statement.

Exactly what I said, no preference to what religion. But there are many who feel cheated in this country because there are religious people, sorry, but if they don't like religion, then they can go where there is no religion.

That's all I am saying.

Maybe you should have worded your OP more carefully. In your OP, you seem to be suggesting that anyone who chooses to not believe in a deity should leave the United States. Now you're saying that it's anti-theists who want to somehow take religion away from everyone should be the people to leave.

Which is it?

Secular rule of law in the United States makes it possible for those who have no religion, and those who do have religion, to be able to live side by side in cooperation peacefully. There is no need for either the non-religious or religious people to leave this country unless they break the law, or unless they are so miserable here that they should leave for their own peace of mind and the peace of mind of those around them.

This is a model that the 'religiously ruled' countries should model themselves after. All the nations ruled with Muslim or Catholic laws should take notice ... Secular rule of law is the ONLY fair law for ALL citizens.

Side note - to those wanting religious rule of law in America ... either conservative Christian law or Sharia type Muslim law ... knock it off. Don't try to screw up our secular rule of law. It works well and it protects the rights of everyone. If you want that kind of thing ... go live in a country that enforces it. Leave this country alone.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Uuuurgh that was one of the slimiest, creepiest and most passive-agressive posts I've ever come across.

The US is the land of the free, not the land of the Christian Taliban........

originally posted by: MOMof3
Why can't you worship whom you wish, in your home or your church and leave the rest of us alone? That is freedom.

Because those of the Abrahamic faiths must be allowed to push their religion on others. It's one of the tenets of their faith. To not be allowed to do so is a violation of their rights. It doesn't matter that you don't want to hear it. Like it, or leave the country. Those are your options. I suppose it's better than another inquisition.

a reply to: Klassified

LOL! Surely, as soon as an atheist country/religious free zone is set up, the Christians will send in the missionaries!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Klassified

LOL! Surely, as soon as an atheist country/religious free zone is set up, the Christians will send in the missionaries!

You're right! I hadn't thought of that.

"Don't like religion? Leave! And we'll follow soon after."

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: WarminIndy

What's the matter? Can't you just wait a few more years, keep that halo polished just a little longer, and all is yours for eternity, right?

Are you really doing God's work, being "Christian" when you call for all non-believers to exit the country? How many converts do you expect to get from this thread? Or, are you looking to start a fight?

Yes, it is the "Christian" thing, you want to not live peacefully or amicably with us, I am offering you an alternative. I did not call for violence or force, and I did offer that you come back without repercussion.

Do you not want to end religion and live in a place with no religion, or do you want to agree that religious people have the rights that you do, including freedom of speech and religion?

I exercised my freedom of speech, the least you can do is agree that I had the freedom to do it. But alas, sometimes things are too difficult, so we must absolve our political bands and what holds us together should be removed, hence, you want to live in a place of no religion, then so be it, go where there is no religion.

But as you prefer we would stand up for your freedom to not believe, then accord us the same rights. All you did was assert the reason why you should be permitted to go where there is no religion. So, go.

If you choose to want to stay, then accept the fact that we have religion in this country, that we will say and do things you don't like and that we have the right not to listen to your complaints. Simple as that.

originally posted by: caladonea
a reply to: WarminIndy

In the United States people have the freedom to believe or not believe what they want; they already have freedom of choice.

Did I say you didn't?

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Klassified

LOL! Surely, as soon as an atheist country/religious free zone is set up, the Christians will send in the missionaries!

You're right! I hadn't thought of that.

"Don't like religion? Leave! And we'll follow soon after."

But then you would have the power to kick us out.

Or you would have the power to force us not to believe.

That's your privilege in a place where there is no religion.