A Peaceful and Amicable Request to the President About Religion and the Citizenry

originally posted by: WarminIndy
It means this....

Suppose that you have a glass of water, ok a certain percentage of that water is Christians, atheists...etc. etc.

When you pour out the part that is Christian, you are left with less water in the glass, so if you want that glass filled to the same level, you have to do what? Refill it. So what do you put in to fill it back to the level?

And if you say you want to fill it with atheisism or secularism, then if you keep pouring out the portions that are Christian or religious, then fill it up with your world views, then you have gotten rid of religion, and hence you have denied freedom of religious expression.

But the same thing happens with every world view. If the glass is ok how it is, then don't worry about it. But notice here, on this thread, even though I disclaimered with "if you are offended, ask yourself why".

Can you really tell me within yourself that you really are offended? And if you are offended, why were you so offended by a post that I said was sarcastic? Is sarcasm reserved for your side?

That there would be less people for a time goes without saying, however your claim that there would be a 'religious vacuum' is still just your opinion.

If a segment of the religious community were to leave the US (as you have seemed to imply) then I couldn't care less who would eventually take their place, be it muslims, hindus, more christians, aborigines, butchers, bakers or even candlestick makers. You seem to be the only person in this thread that has any problem with anyone else living in your country.

Ask Prezbo if that sentiment hasn't been passed around, but I hear that over on Conspiracies in Religion thread, they say all kinds of things over there.

Those Christians who take the moral high ground, they aren't all right. I admit that. But you have to understand, not all Christians think the same way. I think the problem is that for some people, they hear "Christian" and the immediate knee jerk reaction is "Christians are going to burn me at the stake".

But go ahead, ask Prezbo, I simply don't have time to link you to all the threads. Even one, those comments are buried in almost every religious thread.

Don't you dare mention me in such a dishonest manner, par for the course I guess....

Are you able to hold a discussion without throwing around baseless accusations in order to play the victim.....again?

The 'sentiment' you claim is widespread is not one I have come across, nor do I think it even exists (not here on ATS at least).

That is unless you can show a single thread or post from someone that would 'vow their lives to get rid of religion'?

The only person I've ever come across with a sentiment even close to that, is yourself and the OP in this very thread. It's nothing but pure projection.....

originally posted by: Prezbo369

Don't you dare mention me in such a dishonest manner, par for the course I guess....

Are you able to hold a discussion without throwing around baseless accusations in order to play the victim.....again?

The 'sentiment' you claim is widespread is not one I have come across, nor do I think it even exists (not here on ATS at least).

That is unless you can show a single thread or post from someone that would 'vow their lives to get rid of religion'?

The only person I've ever come across with a sentiment even close to that, is yourself and the OP in this very thread. It's nothing but pure projection.....

My thoughts exactly. To claim there are too many of those comments to cite and to not have time to link a single one was super sketchy and then to try to toss me at another poster and relieve themselves of the responsibility of supporting their claim is dishonest, disingenuous and antithetical to the self professed Christianity that warmindy is so afraid is trying to be done away with in this country. And that doesnt even touch on the irational fear mongering and bigotry that are so far from Christ's teachings that the ones working hardest at getting rid of Christianity in this country are the self proclaimed christians who dont actually follow the teachings of their namesake.

Prezbo knows and is being dishonest.

Would you care, once again Peter Vlar, to be reminded of your contributions to my thread about the discussion on Creation and Evolution?

Weren't you one of the same people acting like I had to no right to discuss Creation on the thread forum entitled and designed for the discussion of Creation? But didn't you go to that thread, not to discuss Creation, but to tell us about your own scientific beliefs?

Well, now do I need to post links from that thread just to remind you of all what was said on there? Not one single time on that thread did you ever say "the person who believes in Creation should be allowed to speak what they think". Nope, and you call me dishonest. Please, everyone, go to my thread there and then come back and tell me just how much Peter Vlar defended my right to discuss on that subject.

originally posted by: peter vlar

originally posted by: Prezbo369

Don't you dare mention me in such a dishonest manner, par for the course I guess....

Are you able to hold a discussion without throwing around baseless accusations in order to play the victim.....again?

The 'sentiment' you claim is widespread is not one I have come across, nor do I think it even exists (not here on ATS at least).

That is unless you can show a single thread or post from someone that would 'vow their lives to get rid of religion'?

The only person I've ever come across with a sentiment even close to that, is yourself and the OP in this very thread. It's nothing but pure projection.....

My thoughts exactly. To claim there are too many of those comments to cite and to not have time to link a single one was super sketchy and then to try to toss me at another poster and relieve themselves of the responsibility of supporting their claim is dishonest, disingenuous and antithetical to the self professed Christianity that warmindy is so afraid is trying to be done away with in this country. And that doesnt even touch on the irational fear mongering and bigotry that are so far from Christ's teachings that the ones working hardest at getting rid of Christianity in this country are the self proclaimed christians who dont actually follow the teachings of their namesake.

And you don't believe in that Christ, so how are you going to tell me how to follow the moral example of a being that you don't even believe in?

You forgot all your contributions to my threads. Do you need to take something for your memory problems? Some Gingko Biloba or something?

We've discussed this a lot, thank you for once again for ultimately not defending the rights of religious people. You say you do, but you don't really. You just showed us on this thread once again that my rights are not important, because my rights somehow offend your life.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
And you don't believe in that Christ, so how are you going to tell me how to follow the moral example of a being that you don't even believe in?

I dont have to believe in a diving magic jew as a rational adult to know what the message is if I grew up in the church. Im sorry if the truth about your actual lack of christian morality leaking through into how you present yourself is bothersome but its up to you to follow the path you claim when youre pushing it into other peoples faces with such an arrogant air about you. It would be hillarious if it wasnt horrible watching the trainwreck in slow motion when the conductor doesnt even know the train has left the tracks.

You forgot all your contributions to my threads. Do you need to take something for your memory problems? Some Gingko Biloba or something?

There you go proving my point. So much for love thy neighbor and turn the other cheek huh?

We've discussed this a lot, thank you for once again for ultimately not defending the rights of religious people. You say you do, but you don't really. You just showed us on this thread once again that my rights are not important, because my rights somehow offend your life.

If I disagree with what youre saying, its not my job to stand up for your first amendment rights of free speech.
I certainly have never authored a thread asking those who disagree with me to leave the country if they dont like my position. Tge fact that Im willing to engage you i a debate is a testament to the fact that I support your right to speak your mind. Go start a blog and amrket towards likeminded people if you cant handle replies from people who dont see the world through your narrow lense on a public forum.

Well, now do I need to post links from that thread just to remind you of all what was said on there? Not one single time on that thread did you ever say "the person who believes in Creation should be allowed to speak what they think". Nope, and you call me dishonest. Please, everyone, go to my thread there and then come back and tell me just how much Peter Vlar defended my right to discuss on the subject.

Are you a child or somthing? Youre freely posting and writing threads on whatever you like on a public forum. People are allowed to disagree with you and if they think its bunk and can support their position, they're allowed to call you out on it. You cant get angry when you make a claim and then get called out to back it up. And "go ask Prezbo" isn't supporting your claim, its ducking and covering. As usual though, you change the goal posts halfway down the field. Youre new whine fest is that I didnt overtly announce that the resident bible thumper is allowed to spew their gew when the original claim you were asked to support was one that people were calling for the complete dissolution and destruction of Christianity in tge United States. Go read your own posts after taking ginko biloba and refresh your own limited memory span before you call others out.

Peter Vlar

As the title says "Peaceful and Amicable", this has become neither. And since you find my arguments worthy enough to rebut, then I must be intelligent enough for you to spend so much time arguing with. So let's try to find something peaceful and amicable in this thread.

I have a problem with the mustard gassing of Khurds.
I have a problem when 275 little girls are burned to death for not wearing burkhas.
I have a problem with Jewish and Palestenian children living with constant threats of rockets.
I have a problem with Syrian children being beheaded.
I have a problem with worldwide poverty in which children are forced to starve because of war lords.
I have a problem with children in Cote de Ivoire being forced into slavery for French chocolate.
I have a problem with the international sex trafficking of children.
I have a problem with the lack of punishment of pedophiles and rapists.
I have a problem with gay children being attacked.
I have a problem with violence enacted toward children, no matter where or who they are.

But in all of this thread, you have equated me with a Fundamentalist Christian who cares only about the preservation of Christianity and not about anything else. You have not listened or read any of my other threads, posts, comments or suggestions that I do not have a problem with people exercising their faith or lack of faith. My best friend is Jewish, she was Jewish when I met her and I was at her son's barmitzvah and maid of honor at her Conservative Jewish wedding. So much for the religious intolerance. Then I mention my brother that is Celtic Pagan, you assume that I would be intolerant to other Pagans, Wiccans and other non-Christian people.

You have forced a stereotype onto me and then tried to rebut the stereotype that you presented, not me.

But let's be peaceful and amicable about this, you know that what I said is indeed true, it is a problem on ATS, youtube, Yahoo and every other forum out there.

But let me tell you, Jewish people find little voice on ATS because the first thing that is said to them is "evil Zionist Jews" and then the commenters go off about Jewish conspiracies and their hatred of Jews, so Jews don't outrightly post that they are Jewish. And it isn't Christians doing this to them.

As far as Islam, when they remove the political ideology and allow their own people to live without fear, then I wouldn't be so demanding on them. It's not their religion, it is their political ideology that I have decried over and over.

I have not demanded your head or you burned at the stake, if you feel that way, it is probably projected guilt on your part.

What I did say was that if people felt they wanted to live where there is no religion, I kindly suggested go live where there is no religion. But you demanded and demanded, in order to force me into a corner so you could point out to others "look, the Christian thinks this way, told you so". Which never happened because you had to dance around the bush to avoid acknowledgement of the worldwide internet problem of exactly what I said is happening.

I have the right to say that this is a problem, expressed by many other people on ATS. And I won't back down, and will continue to make it known that I do intend to speak out against those above listed problems. Your problem, so far, has been me. And if it me that you are most indignant over that you have to continually find argument with, then perhaps it isn't really me, maybe it's because you are as frustrated as I am about the current climate of pop culture hate of anything religious.

I am sure you are as tolerant toward your Catholic family, because they aren't strangers.

But here's the thing, arguing with me over a satire thread that would be hilarious on Saturday Night Live, you find offensive because the suggestion was made that people should be able to come and go as they please. We don't live in Communist Russia or East Germany and we do not want it to be like that here. But we cannot allow the voices to keep saying that they want to destroy religion, because we have seen what happens in countries that did that exact thing. And we have seen the problems in countries where only one religious view is permitted.

But peaceful and amicable, what do you suggest we should do when the demand is given to get rid of religion? Should that be permitted? You said no, so then if you disagree with that prospect, then you have a responsibility toward that instead of arguing with me.

You found the thread intriguing enough to comment on, that says something about you. We are in agreement about the rights of people, so now what's the problem?

a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which town in Ohio had their religious freedom taken away by the ACLU.

originally posted by: iterationzero
a reply to: WarminIndy

I'm still waiting for you to tell me which town in Ohio had their religious freedom taken away by the ACLU.

Sorry, didn't see your question.

Celina, Ohio.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Can you provide any other information? I just tried to Google "Celina, OH" and "ACLU". The first ten pages only show action by the ACLU in Celina in 2012, when they urged the administration of the High School to reverse their ban on pro-gay t-shirts.

originally posted by: iterationzero
a reply to: WarminIndy

Can you provide any other information? I just tried to Google "Celina, OH" and "ACLU". The first ten pages only show action by the ACLU in Celina in 2012, when they urged the administration of the High School to reverse their ban on pro-gay t-shirts.

This happened in the early 1980s.

I graduated in 1985, from a different town, but it became a topic of discussion in my college Sociology class.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Are you referrimg to tge case where a child died vecause their Christian Scientist parents refused treatment? If so, whos rights were more i fringed? The childs right to live or the parents right to force their faith on a dying child? Please correct me if Im reading the wrong case and you are referring to another one.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: WarminIndy

Are you referrimg to tge case where a child died vecause their Christian Scientist parents refused treatment? If so, whos rights were more i fringed? The childs right to live or the parents right to force their faith on a dying child? Please correct me if Im reading the wrong case and you are referring to another one.

No, not that case. I am not familiar with Christian Scientists making news in Celina, there is one reading house for them but they don't make too much news very often.

And you can't say that is a Christian problem when there is an increasing number of very liberal non-Christian parents who don't have their children vaccinated.

Let's not argue that one because it is a problem on your side of the fence.

There you go again, telling other people what they know......and what they want.

And you have the audacity to acuse anyone else of dishonesty?

Here is your opportunity to show us where and when either of us stated that we would spend our lives getting rid of religion........it's just another unsubstantiated and entirely made up claim of yours.....

If people didn't like living in a country filled with religious people enough that they'd leave because of it, then they'd leave. They don't need a creepy letter from a passive aggressive person to the president (lol) to know this.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
I have a problem with the mustard gassing of Khurds.
I have a problem when 275 little girls are burned to death for not wearing burkhas.
I have a problem with Jewish and Palestenian children living with constant threats of rockets.
I have a problem with Syrian children being beheaded.
I have a problem with worldwide poverty in which children are forced to starve because of war lords.
I have a problem with children in Cote de Ivoire being forced into slavery for French chocolate.
I have a problem with the international sex trafficking of children.
I have a problem with the lack of punishment of pedophiles and rapists.
I have a problem with gay children being attacked.
I have a problem with violence enacted toward children, no matter where or who they are.

Why would you feel the need to point these things out? yes bad things are bad.....

Are you attempting to convince us you're a good person?...........or convince yourself?

Do you also have a problem with the bombing of abortion clinics? or did you just list those horrific actions that don't conflict with your superstitions?

a reply to: WarminIndy
Maybe I'm missing something...
Which side if the fence is that exactly?
And what do morons who are too stupid to vaccinate their kids have to do with the question,
The one in which you again neglect to actually address the question directly because you're too bust moving goal posts.

Either directly cite a case supporting your easier claims or admit you
Can't. Please.

a reply to: Prezbo369

Whatevz....

You seem to like finding fault, what you failed to realize is that was a direct response to peter vlar's accusation that I care about nothing except the preservation of Christianity and I don't care for children other than Christian children.

originally posted by: peter vlar
a reply to: WarminIndy
Maybe I'm missing something...
Which side if the fence is that exactly?
And what do morons who are too stupid to vaccinate their kids have to do with the question,
The one in which you again neglect to actually address the question directly because you're too bust moving goal posts.

Either directly cite a case supporting your easier claims or admit you
Can't. Please.

Oh please.

YOU made the whole political argument in your comment about whose rights are more important. Please, if you don't like the argument don't present the argument but don't wiggle out of the comment.

You want evidence of anything the ACLU is doing in Ohio, that particular case is from the early 1980s but just for fun...

Ohio ACLU

So, are you comfortable with the ACLU determining that your kids have the same rights as you, meaning that if they feel that you punish or force an idea onto them, that you are actually going against their Constitutional rights?

Let's see here, if you raise your children with agnosticism or atheism, actually you are kind of forcing onto them your own word view that is against their Constitutional rights.

When the Constitution was first drafted, children were considered property of their parents and afforded few rights. However, in the years since, the U.S. Supreme Court has recognized youth should be granted many of the same rights as adults.

You can't teach them your world view and if they tell you to shut up, then you have to shut up, even if they are kids. It's either all or none when it comes to interpreting and applying Constitutional rights.

a reply to: WarminIndy

And as is par for this course, you simply won't directly cite the case because you are making random crap up for your 'everybody hates jesus so woe is me' party. I can look up the ohio ACLU page just fine, what i want is for YOU to once, just omce, support your,own dammed argument imstead of expecting other people to do your due diligence. Its either sheer laziness or desperately misleadijg. It dowsnt matter which one tgough because this thread is so well dome my dog woukdnt eat it.

As for your last statement, youre the only one interpreting the Comstitution to suit your argument. I made no commemtsry on political ideologies, i made a comment about people who refuse to vaccinate their kids being morons. YOU are the one who,attempted to politicize it. When's your birthday? Ill be glad to send you some hooked on phonics videos to help you with your reading comprehension skills. Because i refuse to believe thst someone is so purposely oblique in their reading as to reinterpret what other write to come up witg some of the crap i see in your replies. You flat out ignore specific wuestions and adjust the entire conversation to suit some new whim of yours thst doesnt even pertain to the OP or replies to such. Your a melodramatic provocateur at best, a drama queen at worst. Enjoy your day, I'm done entertaining your trolling.