The forgotten legacy of reincarnation in early christianity

originally posted by: zazzafrazz
a reply to: Logarock

If you can post in a calmer manner, you are welcome to try answer my previous post.

Just out of curiosity have you ever read some of the things John the Baptist said and did? Lets just say that he was not of a "calmer manner". Very politically incorrect and apparently hadn't read any Dale Carnegie "How to win friends and influence people".

a reply to: Logarock

Yes I have, and I don't care how he spoke, You nor I aint J The B.
we can surely indulge in a conversation like its real life etiquette. Its what I expect on ATS or I leave the convo
I am reading your former post, well, rereading as it doesn't make sense to me in parts, but I will get there and respond shortly.

thanks

ETA I haven't included the other posted as I am replying to your comment.
SIgh~ let me get on with reading your other post! This is all distracting.

a reply to: zazzafrazz


Yea ok man but Buzzy and me have history. I see you don't mind her tone and I have never talked to you like that personally. If she has anything to say be sure she will say it. I am the same way.


As far as the post in parts not making any sense, you may have to go over it a few times and engage some gray matter. But just ask maybe its not worded clearly. One of the worst things anyone ever did was box up scripture in verse and chapter form. It adds to the confusion. Some versions brake it down in paragraph which makes reading and seeing context much easier.

Also the section you posted is an example of a section that should always be read in full context and with some other things coming to bear. When it is seen in the whole conversation and event in regards to the question of reincarnation problems pop up right away. Only when parts are taken out and separated are they useful for supporting many errors.

a reply to: Logarock

Yea ok man but Buzzy and me have history. I see you don't mind her tone and I have never talked to you like that personally.

Oh my, I feel so special!

If she has anything to say be sure she will say it. I am the same way.

I will say right now that I don't appreciate your tone, EVER.

You think you know everything, and you don't. NONE of us do.
Including myself. But there IS indisputable EVIDENCE that people have believed in reincarnation for a loooonnggg time - since WAY BEFORE Jesus was (supposedly) born. Everything Labtech and Kenny are saying is true.

The problem is when people refuse to even LOOK at the volumes and volumes and volumes of material that pokes holes in their narrow understanding.

Like I said - it's there, whether YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. Pretending it isn't there is what I see in your posts. I've probably asked you before, but have you EVER looked into it with courage and an open mind? (No. No you haven't. And that's a shame for you - you're stuck, along with millions of others. BILLIONS of others who refuse to believe anything EXCEPT what their preachers tell them, which is the modern version of being well, um, brainwashed.)

I wonder, though, Logarock, have you EVER felt any curiosity about other religious faith systems at all? If not, WHY NOT? It won't damn you to hell to look at other worldviews with an open mind. It's your abrasive stubbornness that has caused the 'history' between us....and your tone and manner are not exclusive to your dealings with me....but you are not alone in this. There is a subgroup of people just like you who demand that their views be held as Truth OR ELSE. (It's the same abrasive stubbornness that is blowing the Middle East to smithereens right now, by the way.)

I will end the conversation with this: YOUR tone and manner are enough for me to know that you don't actually follow the real teachings of Jesus. Have you (or any of your religious friends and family) EVER looked at the mystery schools and gnosticism? Have you done ANY research of other existing religions? Do you REALLY KNOW what you are talking about?

No? I thought not. Otherwise you could not claim that there is no evidence for reincarnation being taught by early followers of Jesus.



Feel free to check the link in my sig. KNOWLEDGE. Get some.

a reply to: Logarock

Logarock have you ever heard of the small but very ancient religious sect called mandaeism, also regarded by some scholors as being the same group who were once called Sabians, they are a seperate but related religon to Christianity whom claim to have been founded by the Apostles of John the Baptist and reincarnation is part of there faith though they have never accepted christ which may prove they arose after christianity as a gnostic sect.

They are a group whom anthropologists believe derived much of there tradition form other sources but nevertheless this is a very intriguing fact as though they were opposed to christ as the messiah and saw him wrongly as a false prophet as perversly they do Abraham and but then I personaly agree with the third one they do not believe in even though I disagree over the former two, but today they are now just another religious group being persecuted to extinction by ISIS even though the muslim's text the koran call's them people of the book but then when did Isis ever obey there own religion except where it come's to control and having woman as slave's and rape toy's.

www.literaryreview.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...

There is probably much more and I should not be surprised if there was a mandaean community stateside.
www.examiner.com...
www.newworldencyclopedia.org...

Look the arguement is not about Christ I believe HE IS, I would go so far as to say I know he is but I am not so certain I am in good graces etc as I am ill and having a run of terrible bad luck but please consider these fact's and take them on board,
You may well continue to disagree but with whom are you disagreeing and are you right.

Here is a book you might want to read
www.amazon.com...

www.theosophy-nw.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

This is a good short page
www.ocoy.org...
www.near-death.com...

Then again there is this very well researched page that is in line with what you believe.
www.john-uebersax.com...

Now personally the last place I want to find myself is back down here but then we really do not know the mechanic's and when I read some information on reincarnation it sounded very wrong to me.

Some believe they are reincarnated at about six months pregnancy, could this be actual possession which may cause many late miscarriages, I believe the soul of a child is present form the moment the new life come's into being which is the conception and though it may be unformed it is growing so this causes some problem's for me in my rational on the subject.

Some believe they enter the child shortly after birth, again a worrying conception.

But some believe they come at the moment of conception and that I find plausible if reincarnation is real which in some cases I do believe it is but what is it.

Can a child's soul absorb the information of past live's from the soul's that try to take it over.

Now you must bear with me as I am a spiritualist in my belief's and do believe in life AFTER death but I also believe in life BEFORE we are what we are, though I have no more memory's from that incident with John I alway's felt an affinity with the first world war British soldier's.

Remember also when Jesus said that anyone that believes in him will never die, so are you then asleep in a mouldering body buried in damp soil to rot away, NO he said you will have a new celestial body in the resurrection, that is the birth to the eternal life, like the angels'.

Jacob saw the angels ascending and descending the ladder, if they are what we become why were they descending and when they ascended what had they been doing but like I pointed out earlier a Jewish definition of Angels' (messengers/servants/(working for god) of God) can include everything that serve's god's purpose from mundane object's to supernatural phenomena.

There are cases that bear consideration like a child in india who died of a seizure but then came too and had the memory's of another little girl as well as being confused and not knowing where she was, the child was born into a high cast indian family and the family she remembered clearly was a poor lower cast family.
Her parent's investigated and found the story was true with both set's of parent's then regarding the child as there daughter so what happened was it reincarnation or possession, was a soul placed into a still living but now vacant body etc.
Then there is the case of a child from the middle east who remembered being murdered and was able to identify his killer, where the axe used to kill him was buried and were his body was etc.

Let me tell you something personal, back when I was going through all that though my mother had us baptized Catholic she herself is Anglican and we were never confirmed but I had a very strong christian faith all my life so during this horrible episode I went to a small Anglican church called christ the servant in the town of skelmersdale in lancashire, in a part of the town called Digmoor.

Now as you know unlike the other church you kneel at the sacrement rather than stand or at this mass you did anyway, as the wafer touched my tongue I felt a sensation not too unlike static electricity coursing through me and I gave myself to christ, then as the wine touched my lips but before it entered my mouth I felt a cold sensation that felt like a blade passing through my neck, though I took the blood wine for a second I was in three places, I felt my headless other body falling away, I saw through the eye's and felt as My other head lifted out of my body like someone had it by the hair very fast upward and I nearly collapsed, it was not pleasant at all sir to say the least, I was actually in shock afterward and know that who or whatever did this was trying to stop me taking the sacrement.

Now you can go laugh, call it crazy or whatever you want to do I really don't care but wish you knew this was the truth.

But from my perspective including my own encounter with being outside my body and with seeing a ladder in a dark place reaching up to a feint light in the cloud's which I climbed, an act of utter desperation as the ladder looked infinite I know there are more than one type of body and we may have multiple body's, if that is the case maybe we have more than one soul that is not someone else but is still us the individual I that we know as ourself.

Preface:
I don't personally mind whether there was Reincarnation in early christianity, as I don't follow religion, I engage in discussions to add historical value to them where possible. I research from a historical perspective only, not to be convinced of nor to convince someone to become religious. I am well read on biblical literature from a scholarly aspect.

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: zazzafrazz

He wasn't talking about Elijah the OT prophet.

That's incorrect.
Which Elijah do you suggest he was talking about, Elijah the bakery owner down on 6th street in Nazareth? If you read Matthew verse 11 Jesus is asking the apostles to stretch their faith, and maybe he is asking believers today to do the same "And if you will believe it, he is the Elijah who was to come"
He knew that reincarnation wasn't part of Jewish scripture by the sounds of it.

Thats why He said "born of woman" to differentiate. Not that the first wasn't born of a woman but the first had never died and was seen on the Mt of Transfiguration. Its a matter of type with John the Baptist.

I disagree. Why would he use that crucial term "born of woman" ? To discount mediumship (or equivalent of ) He WAS talking about Elijah the OT prophet being born of woman and incarnating as JtheB. That is reincarnation.
Malachi did not say that Elijah will appear by proxy, through medium, as someone accessing his powers etc but that Elijah himself will return.
The Jesus story needed the Elijah part to validate the mesiahinc element of it. This was CRITICAL.

If you read the entire context

I have, you are in the wrong verse and context to what I quoted. The Mathew verses I was discussing for context

9"Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.
10 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’ "

You have skipped from v11 I quoted to v17. And that is why I found it hard to follow your post.

the three disciples that saw Elijah and Moses on the mount, and James and John were both followers of John the Baptist at one time, didn't recognize Elijah as John, thus the question. Peter didn't recognize the man as John the Baptist and he to knew what John looked like as well. In addition there is every reason to believe that they had to be told who these men were and again none of them recognized Elijah as John.

Jesus clearly corrects them in that verse you are referring to and clearly states that Elijah is JthB.

Matthew 17:10-13
10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”

11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognise him ….. 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."

The apostles didn't recognise John as Elijah, Jesus instructed them that it was. Are you saying jesus was wrong?

The real Elijah is going to come before the 2nd coming of Christ being as he was seen on the Mt in a state of transfiguration which is a temporary condition, suspension of death. John couldn't have been in this state because he had already died. Elijah is not dead but in transfiguration. Jesus transfigured momentarily as part of "fulfilling all thing" but then went on to His death and resurrection.

He specifically says in that verse you have skipped to
But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognise him,
Jesus addresses it as Elijah had been and gone in JtheB

The argument against reincarnation of Elijah is that he never died as we know it because he went up in a chariot of fire and it was not rebirth because Elijah had never died. For this premise to discount reincarnation it would have required J the B to have returned in the same fiery chariot. However, he was clearly placed in the womb of a human mother.. Jesus said he was "born of woman". Thus cementing Elijah returned via reincarnating into the womb of a woman and being born as JtB

Another problem with John the Baptist being the original Elijah reborn is that He really doesn't come close to fitting the profile of Elijah. The Elijah that comes before the second coming of Christ does however fit the original profile.

So you are disagreeing with Jesus then?
It is up to you to take the word of Jesus or not. Elijah was John the Baptist according to Jesus. He didn't say John as a medium of Elijah, not as John accessing Eihjahs powers, (mediumship is against old testament scripture also) but as born through the womb and incarnating as John. Jesus said in no uncertain terms that John is Elijah and not simply an medium for Elijah

*shrugs * argue with him not me:
"This is Elijah... He who has ears to hear let him hear" (Matthew 11:14-15)

The Jesus story needed the Elijah part to validate the messianic element of it. Without it there would have been no acceptance according to Jewish Scripture. Elijah is returned as J the B and he came through the womb of Elizabeth.

The NT includes ways to appropriate the messianic 'rules' of the OT, unfortunately by Jesus saying Elijah was John, incarnated through the womb, he opened a can of worms, unless people just shrug their shoulders and say "ok he said he was reincarnated" believe his new words not the rulings of the OT.

As scripture debate does my head in, don't be surprised if you reply if it takes a while before I address it.
I will get to it eventually though. thanks!

a reply to: LABTECH767


I have referenced a lot of information over the course of this thread relating to Pythagorean Hylozoics and much clarifying information didn’t arise during the discourse that took place. This following information explains to me personally the meaning of life, and resonates with me at a very deep level. I believe, even though it is just a few posts on an obscure thread, there are people who will discover this truth by being guided to this information and will be motivated enough to examine Laurency’s work in more detail for themselves.

One thing I really enjoy about the Hylozoic explanation of the reality of existence is, that it is not at all prejudicial or judgemental. There is no sin beyond the deviation from the laws of life and the inevitable consequences born by the perpetrator in perfect justice. Every one of us will achieve divinity through the slow gradual perfection of our souls. There is no anger, no jealously,no recrimination, no casting out, no shame in rebirth, It is a process where other, much older beings than ourselves have gone before. They truly are the masters, meaning they have mastered life itself. Their common goal is to administer and assist us all in a process that enables each of us to achieve spiritual purity, through understanding and guidance of our actions for the benefit and unity of all life.

In my view it is the alchemy of the soul, the base metal into gold through distillation into the ever finer material, The message behind the metaphor of the ancient alchemist.

Hylozoics asks us understand that as humans, we are not the pinnacle of evolution, we are a line of creation that takes a rather difficult, painful path to return to the source. Our path is difficult due the extreme duality we face, it does however provide us with a much quicker journey than many of the other evolutionary paths.

Another passage of evolution, one that originally passed through involution in the physical plane, but has continued its evolution on the much higher spiritual plane of the essential kingdom is the Deva’s, The Deva’s are a very intellectually and spiritually advanced group of entities. They are monads the same as we, but their journey is slower as they bear the burden of a very solemn responsiblity.

When we eventually transmigrated to the human kingdom from the animal kingdom, something incredibly special takes place. A Deva is assigned the task of pairing with the animal that will be born into a human organism and will share it’s lower causal envelope for the entire span of time it takes to ascend spiritually through the human kingdom.

Its ‘causal envelope’(lowest body existing in world 47) enshrouds the human organisms many envelopes, and a bond is formed that will remain for millions of years. For the first time, as the animal transmigrates to become human, now reincarnates as a physical body, an etheric body, an emotional body, a mental body and the causal body he shares with Augoeides. From this point forth, they commence the relationship as dual beings of higher and lower selves.

The “causal envelope’ (body) is immortal, and stays with us during our many lives on earth and is the repository for all our previous lives memories. After each lifetime, our emotional envelopes, (seven in all) our mental envelopes (four in all) dissolve away and our monad either sleeps in the causal envelope(three levels in all) or awaken in it’s causal envelope dependent on the ability of our consciousness to perceive it. Each reincarnation starts afresh with a new organism and our monad forms new etheric, emotional and mental bodies surrounded with our causal body,also referred to as the soul.

Once our consciousness has evolved enough to awaken in our causal body, all our subsequent incarnations bring along with it, complete knowledge of previous lives, and is in constant contact with our Augoeides. Our advancement is rapid and incarnations are few, from that point forward.

Our Augoeides belongs to a group consciousness, as do all beings of the forty six world (The essential kingdom). All higher worlds encompass all lower worlds and so all higher beings in the hierarchy of life know all of us intimately, our relationships our deeds our progress. Every one of the 7 billion or so physical beings alive today stretching over the entire spectrum of human development is attended to and nurtured by the collective whole, and manifests through our personal Augoeides during each of our many lives.

There are some 60 billion of us currently passing through the human kingdom, the majority of which are sleeping in their causal envelopes awaiting an appropriate time to reincarnate. The majority are very spiritually advanced and to be born under the primitive conditions that currently exist would be inappropriate just yet. This is still the time of Barbarians(youngest souls) 80% and the Civilised 20%. Over time we will experience periods of Cultured, Humanity and Idealism which will be the appropriate time for reincarnation of those sleeping. We will all pass through these stages before we individually, or as a group of root race or sub root race of beings move on after the next epoch. (ascension).

Some of us will move ahead of the group quickly to the essential kingdoms, others will lag behind and continue their evolution during the following epoch. The next epoch will be the sixth root race, and will be full of (new to humanity)humans characterised as barbarians, the most advanced beings in that epoch will be the laggers of this epoch who didn’t ascend. It is estimated that it takes 140 thousand to 160 thousand lives to pass through the human kingdom. The vast majority of us have experienced around 100,000 lives spanning over some 6 million years in the physical realm, as well as an equal or longer periods of time in the other solar systemic kingdoms between lives on the seven Emotional(Maya) and the Mental sub-planes.

Science will tell us that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and the Universe is some 14 billion years old. Hylozoics explains that the universe is trillions of years old and that the various epochs (breath of Brahman) exhales and inhales the physical into and out of existence cyclicly. To put that into perspective, each breath would be the ‘Big Bang’ and that our universe is currently expanding with dark matter/energy (monads) in a continual inflow of involutionary material manifesting into the physical universe, slowly evolving into universal divine consciousness as one life form or another.

Every countless species of alien life throughout the universe is in truth of reality, our brothers, and all life is subject to the same laws of life and follow the same system. Most life in our universe has never materialised in the physical world and there are a large number of planets within our own solar system that exist in other dimensions. Most planets in our system support life forms that only exist in a physical etheric form (ghosts) as did life on our own planet before we fully materialised into the physical as Lemurians, many millions of years ago.

Continue next post

a reply to: kennyb72


To help visualise, it must be understood that it is not a point in space that expansion takes place but ‘in and out’ of the solar systemic dimensions. Hylozoics explain that, all in existence is conscious/conscious potential, matter in motion (energy) and that space does not exist, the whole of reality is a solid mass of matter comprised of monads of varying degrees of inter dimensional and physical coagulation occupying the many planes of existence and in various states of consciousness.

Every single monad in and out of physical existence is consciousness potential or consciousness manifest. Once every monad is consciousness manifested, it gradually becomes divine through experiencing everything in the life forms of its evolutionary path and then is re-absorbed back into the source(The night of Brahman) and the process (the breath of Brahman) starts again. An unimaginable period of time to our minds.


Spirituality is not just something that happened thousands of years ago in the past, the Bible and other written texts should be viewed as keys to help unravel the true reality of life. Spirituality is here and now, and is happening to all of us, whether we know or understand it or not. The sooner we ‘get it’ in each of our many lives, the faster our progress will be. The knowledge is within many of us and is latent, its rediscovery can be rapid, karma permitting. Our own karma can and does prolong or shorten our journey.

Our physical form is tailored for each of our incarnations and is specifically designed to present us with unique challenges. It is hard to get our heads around the concept that we, the billions of incarnations of humanity,have individual plans purposely designed for each of us. The process is controlled by many billions of beings, condensed into smaller groups of collective consciousness’s that we will come to know as ‘The Masters’ or ‘The Hierarchy’. It is Augoeides who arranges our physical birth with the help of others. There is no duality in the Deva kingdom so the the terms he or she is redundant but they orchestrate the circumstances surrounding our birth, out parents, our sex, the conditions governing our lives, the environment through which we will express our own free will, all balanced perfectly with our spiritual needs and the balance of our karma.

It is Augoeides who ties the bundle of subtle bodies to the physical/etheric body at the moment of birth, through which energies are transferred via our chakras to breath life through our etheric body into our physical organism exchanging the umbilical chord of the mother to the umbilical chord of universal energy. it is also Augoeides who severs the bond at the moment of death.

Beyond these duties, Augoeides spends much of his existence following his own path and pays little attention to us during our early barbaric lives. Our relationship becomes more integrated as we mature in spirit and ultimately as we advance, we grow into one being. Eventually we dissolve our causal body and absorb all of our experiences into our monad which actually exists in a triad of molecular matter, after which, we take on another higher outer envelope(body) belonging to another spiritually higher Deva.

Augoeides continues its expansion, and we as part of a collective consciousness continue ours. It is through the lower bodies of higher Devas that we can expand our consciousness to ever greater levels of understanding as we approach omniscience and omnipotence ourselves.

Every one of us has Karma to pay or reap, and in all it’s horror and cruelty, is all a necessary but temporary experience, although it can be delivered over an entire lifetime or several lives. When the free will of humanity and the darkness of (the gnostic describe as) the archons or dark forces are factored into the equation, how could it not be traumatic?. Suffering is not our destiny but a temporary, necessary evil presented as duality.

There are those who have chosen the ‘left hand path’, those who we would describe as pure evil, they have however, a heavy price to pay for their choice, and that is the detachment of their causal envelope. This takes a conscious decision by them however and involves a ceremony to be initiated into the black lodge. It is not something we could blindly fall into. Their purpose is for a relatively short term gain(sovereignty on earth) but at the price of an incredibly long term consequence.

After each epoch (breath of Brahman). Those not protected by a causal envelope will be washed away into the sea of evolutionary monads to once again pass through the mineral, vegetable and animal kingdoms, billions of years and tens of thousands of wasted lives only to earn, through experience the right to acquire a new causal envelope to become human again and to be subject to the accumulated karma built up during it’s previous existence.

It is so hard for us to visualise what eternity is,or even aware of what could be possible over such an unimaginable time span. The incredible organisation, the unfathomable intelligence, the true meaning of ‘Ordo ab Chao’ over such an immense period. The mysterious force, the loving, harmonic, primordial source behind it all, the creator of masters, (viewed by early man as gods in their own right), the architect of the laws of nature, the laws of life, the laws of the universe, the body, mind and energy that animates all of creation. It is what we simple, yet un-manifested divine beings refer to as ‘The Universe’, ‘Brahman’,’Vishnu’, ‘Yahweh’,’Elohim’,’Allah’, or the Divine ‘God the father’. Whatever you call it, without it, nothing could exist, and I don’t think I really needed to put into words the fact that Jesus is a master and it is through his Christ consciousness that we all eventually return to God.

The above description in a nutshell is what Henry T Laurency describes as the teachings of Pythagoras and his mental system of hylozoics. Nobody knows who Laurency is, as his work was published through his pseudonym and translated by Lars Adelskogh his Swedish translator, although a teacher and philosopher in his own right.

Laurency’s entire body of work has been published and is free for all to read. Laurency provides the only reference to Pythagorean Hylozoics in the world of esoteric teachings, but is in general accord with the teachings of Helena Petrovna Blavatsky the founder of the Theosophical Society. Theosophy suffered many setbacks after Blavatsky died and suspicion of infiltration by certain organisations is a possibility. Theosophy was slowly and meticulously discredited and demonised by various parties over the years but at its heart is a beautiful explanation of the reality of life presented by a spiritually advanced causal self.

Hyloziocs stands completely by itself, also as a full explanation of the ‘reality of life’ as enumerated by Pythagoras, deeply influencing Plato, Socrates and many other Greek, Roman and European philosophers over thousand of years albeit esoterically. Hylozoics can be understood without any reference to Theosophy. It is, in my view a clear indication that Laurency was a causal self, in possession of a level of consciousness awareness, where information is objectively experienced by the individual and this knowledge has been passed on by him in his book the philosophers stone.

Sorry for the necessarily long post, I felt it was needed to clear up any misunderstand

To the posters in this thread who keep mentioning Elijah, you are aware that he was translated correct? He and Enoch are the only two to my recollection to have been "called up" to heaven as it were without having experienced a physical death. This is for prophetic reasons I assume from my reading. The two witnesses come to mind but that is getting off of the subject (although having never died as we know it they may have witnessed much )

It seems that there has been no real evidence put forth to support the claims that early Christians believed in reincarnation outside of a few sects which died out or were converted to a more orthodox view. This could be because they held previously these views and integrated them with the idea of the messiah or perhaps because they misunderstood or picked and choose what they wanted to believe as is the case of many in this thread.

Jesus contemporaries were mostly jews who hold no such belief traditionally and even some of them believed in no after life at all like the Sadducees. Jesus accepted his jewishness and often spoke of his kingdom not of earth which hints to an afterlife not an endless cycle of rebirth and death. The religions that accept reincarnation seem to hinge their entire belief system upon that one idea yet it conflicts directly with many of Jesus own words when taken in context and not cherry picked for being vague to prove a point.

Since I was a teen and first ventured off of the christian path and into Buddhism and atheism and back to be reborn I have seen people march out the same worn out misunderstood idea that Justinian was to blame for this removal without addressing so many other things going on at the time of Justinian in the church that refute this idea as it is presented. I am short on time at the moment and perhaps will go into that last bit further later on or someone else may in my absence.

One last point and that is that about recollection of past lives. Christianity can reason these as being visions or some such from disembodied spirits. Can anyone in the reincarnation camp refute the christian counter? Another point is how come evidence for reincarnation is accepted from testimony but NDE experiences which contradict that by showing a distinct afterlife and or encounters with Jesus not be given the same credibility? I hold no opinion on NDE as it could just as well be some type of demonic incursion but I suppose the proof would be in the pudding so to speak. Feel free to discuss.

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
To the posters in this thread who keep mentioning Elijah, you are aware that he was translated correct?

I address this in my post above. Pls read it, I believe it counters your statement sufficiently, then consider the following.
Jesus said Elijah, born of woman.
Are you saying he was wrong?

Did Jesus say it was the possession of Jtb by Elijah? No
Did Jesus say it was Jtb acting as a medium to channel Elijah? No
Did Jesus say that Elijah was incarnated via Elizabeth's womb? Yes

Which of those three is reincarnation?
DId Jesus ask his apostles to suspend their old beliefs to consider that the incarnation possible? Yes
"And if you will believe it"

If you don't want to believe him *shrugs* looks like you would have answered him "NO Jesus I will not believe that Elijah was was born of woman" to his direct question/statement.

It seems that there has been no real evidence put forth to support the claims that early Christians believed in reincarnation outside of a few sects which died out or were converted to a more orthodox view

You just proved the point of this thread. Reread what you wrote and how you you contradicted yourself in one statement. It is not a debate on Orthodox cannon and whether christians should believe in reincarnation, rather ''The forgotten legacy of reincarnation in early christianity.'

The gnostics believed in reincarnation, they were around in the beginning, just because the might of Rome wasn't behind them to enforce their take on Christianity, doesn't mean that the concept within christianity didn't exist. Christianity was incredibly varied until a Emperor asked for it to be made universal in a manner that was marketable and accessible. There was just too many versions, and they got cut. That is what Catholicism means "universal" and for near 400 years these beliefs were in existence.
You can't rewrite history.

Gnostic example:

""When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will bear!" (Gospel of Thomas, saying 84)

THAT can be interpreted as less likely to be about reincarnation more than the cannon gospel quote in Mathew 11 and 17.

Another CHRISTIAN GNOSTIC example on how to avoid being reincarnated.

"This soul needs to follow another soul in whom the Spirit of life dwells, because she is saved through the Spirit. Then she will never be thrust into flesh again." (Secret Book of John 14:20)

So this thread is about reincarnation in early Christianity. No one can argue it wasn't there historically.

not cherry picked for being vague to prove a point.

It was quoted, not cherry picked. You have provided no scripture from JC to counter the point. I have.

Since I was a teen and first ventured off of the christian path and into Buddhism and atheism and back to be reborn

And there lieth the USUAL problem. The thread isn't about your personal Christian journey, your personal experience is wholly unrelated to the early history of Christianity.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

Well of course Elijah was born of woman. Who in the bible was not born of a woman outside of the celestial realm? You have countered nothing and again have proven my point by cherry picking to support your position.

As far as the gnostics it is quite clear that the gnostics were the ones corrupting the message hence all of the political and dogmatic commotion at the time of people like Justinian and the council of Nicea. Jesus never identifies as a gnostic. Not once mentions things like a demiurge or that knowledge was what would bring about salvation so just because it is a popular theory among new agers to insert Jesus at sites like Qumran and such does not make it true.

My personal experience was just to give a little background showing that I was not someone raised to believe a certain way but came to my beliefs through a long search, open mind, and metaphysical experience but thank you for the dismissive tone it just shows you are more concerned with being right than the truth. I dont have to quote scripture to support my ideas in this instance there has been 2000+ years of documented and understood ideas regarding Christianity that fit perfectly with the biblical narrative as opposed to your buffet off the cuff wishful thinking that is nothing but cherry picking. If you wish to discuss this rationally you need to come up with some sources either outside the bible or within take your pick, that Jesus himself believed and taught iabout some cycle of death and earthly rebirth that is not symbolic. I read your previous postings and they are as irrelevant now as they were then. You disregard ideas like Karma/Dharma to suit your westernized view of reincarnation. You need to understand those two terms before trying to claim they are not contradictory to Jesus own teachings.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

If you wish to discuss this rationally you need to come up with some sources either outside the bible or within take your pick, that Jesus himself believed and taught iabout some cycle of death and earthly rebirth that is not symbolic.

Matthew 17:12
And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come. 15"He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

It can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body... then it is beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are ever vanishing and ever reappearing. —Origen

Or is it not more in conformity with reason, that every soul, for certain mysterious reasons (I speak now according to the opinion of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Empedocles, whom Celsus frequently names), is introduced into a body, and introduced according to its deserts and former actions? Origen

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

originally posted by: NihilistSanta
a reply to: zazzafrazz

Well of course Elijah was born of woman. Who in the bible was not born of a woman outside of the celestial realm? You have countered nothing and again have proven my point by cherry picking to support your position.

You haven't even read the bible it appears. Jesus said Eljiah was John The Baptist born of a woman.
So simple, yet such stretch for some…

Read Matthew 11 and Matthew 17. They are in my posts.
I won't read the rest of your post as it's a waste of time, returning on kind, as you didn't bother reading mine.

a reply to: windword

Theosophic revisions are not going to support this idea , windword. Even wikipedia makes mention of this.

In Reincarnation in Christianity (1978), theosophist Geddes MacGregor asserts that Origen believed in reincarnation and taught about it, but that his texts written about the subject have been destroyed.[65]

Origen wrote about the Greeks' transmigration of the soul, with which he may or may not have agreed. Many theologians share the notion that Origen's extant works from Latin translations (not from the original Greek) confirm he did not believe in reincarnation.[66] He was cognizant of the concept of transmigration (metensomatosis transformation, and loses what it once was, the human soul will not be what it was)[67] from Greek philosophy, but it is repeatedly stated that this concept is not a part of the Christian teaching or scripture. A translation of his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew, which stems from a 6th-century Latin translation, reads: "In this place [when Jesus said Elijah was come and referred to John the Baptist] it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I fall into the doctrine of transmigration, which is foreign to the Church of God, and not handed down by the apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the scriptures" (ibid., 13:1:46–53).[68] Conversely in Origen's Against Celsus, he argues that the teaching of the resurrection does not come from the doctrine of reincarnation, yet contradictorily claims to know that the soul transmigrates from body to body:

Wikipedia entry on Origen

So we are to take centuries later interpretations of a mans philosophy that has not survived in any form(manuscripts etc) that supports the ideas you have posited? If we are to accept that then you would have to accept the other contradictory claims made by Origen concerning gnosticism and a rejection of reincarnation. So which is it?

a reply to: zazzafrazz

I read your post and replied in kind in so much as to address the topic originally and not you specifically. You can play the ostrich all you want it just shows the lack of support for your position.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: superman2012
I do believe in reincarnation (at least the hope that we keep intermingling with our loved ones) and one of the best stories I have ever read about it is The Egg. It is such a simple/complicated story with a great message about the way we should be treating eachother. If that is what reincarnation is about, I'm in.

You mean this egg?

Love this video, even though I'm not by any means convinced of it.

Love that Video! That's close to my philosophy of life.

a reply to: NihilistSanta


What does this mean:
"Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist"

What does this mean:
"And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.’”

What does this mean:
"But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognise him ….. 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist."

a reply to: zazzafrazz

The three disciples (Peter, John and James), having just come down from the mount of transfiguration, were more convinced than ever that Jesus is Son of the living God, and the promised Messiah. And the sight of Elijah on the mountain probably reminded them of the prophecy that said that the return of Elijah would precede the coming of the Messiah. So, “The disciples asked [Jesus], ‘Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?’” (vs. 10). The prophecy about Elijah comes from Malachi 4:6: “See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.” The teachers of the law foresaw only one coming of the Messiah. The prophecy in Malachi (we now realize) refers to the second coming of Jesus, for it says that Elijah will come “before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes.” The phrase “the great and dreadful day” refers to the end-times of tribulation and judgment which will occur when our Lord returns.
So, Jesus replied to the disciples: “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things” (vs. 11). Note, He says “will restore all things.” Jesus knew that He was to return in the future, and that Elijah would precede Him then. But then also, there was a man who preceded Jesus in His first coming, who came in the “spirit and the power of Elijah” (see Luke 1:17). Jesus told the disciples: “‘But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.’ Then the disciples understood that He was talking to them about John the Baptist” (vs. 13). The children of Israel “did not recognize” John as fulfilling the prophecy about Elijah, nor (by and large) did they accept Jesus as their Messiah. Had Jesus been accepted by His people as the Messiah in His first coming, John the Baptist would have fulfilled the prophecy concerning Elijah, for John came in “the spirit and the power of Elijah”. But Jesus will come again, and another man will precede Him, and, as Jesus taught, “will restore all things.” “There seems no doubt that the prophecy in Malachi, like many other OT passages, has a two-fold interpretation; the secondary and symbolic meaning referred to John at Christ’s first appearing, and then literally before Christ’s second coming. This entire section, suggesting Scripture to be fulfilled in a wider sense than appears on surface, shows how often God’s Word is found to be much deeper and fuller in meaning than its mere words seem to imply; and it is therefore wise to follow disciples’ example and ask Divine guidance in its interpretation” [Griffith Thomas, 259].

Source

Again 2000 + years devoted to study of the of the bible. Others have worded it better than I so I will allow them to defend the verses you have chosen to take out of context while also omitting the other biblical accounts of the same events like Luke, Malachi, etc Logarock already mentioned the above but you might not have noticed it.

a reply to: NihilistSanta

Answer the questions or shooo.

a reply to: zazzafrazz

It has been answered so what is your refutation? Are you merely waiting for me to support you already proven flawed premise. Again you have taken it out of its context the previous post of mine places it back in context. You are hung up on the "womb of woman" part clearly so I am unsure of the point you are trying to make if you refuse to see the actual verses in context in reference to Elijah.