HHO Truth

a reply to: Arbitrageur

To get the figure for Brown's gas, which is 2/3 H2 and 1/3 O2

I have this notion that a liter of water would be ~ 111 g hydrogen and ~ 889 g oxygen. Am I off on that?

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: Arbitrageur

To get the figure for Brown's gas, which is 2/3 H2 and 1/3 O2

I have this notion that a liter of water would be ~ 111 g hydrogen and ~ 889 g oxygen. Am I off on that?

1 liter of water = 1234.44 liters of hydrogen and 604.69 liters of oxygen. As 1 liter of water has 1000g I think your numbers may be slightly off do to the 1/3 and 2/3 requirements...

a reply to: Jenisiz

I'm thinking energy density, if that's even the right way to explain it. I get the 2:1 ratio numerically but by mass shouldn't it be 8:1 O:H ?

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
a reply to: Jenisiz

I'm thinking energy density, if that's even the right way to explain it. I get the 2:1 ratio numerically but by mass shouldn't it be 8:1 O:H ?

Ah, lets say total mass of the water is 36 g and oxygen is 32 g then the mass of H is the difference, 4 g. So in that aspect yes 8:1

a reply to: Jenisiz

What effect does this have on calculations by liter? I'm thinking we can't just say 2/3 of a liter of the H2 O2 is H2 gas.

a reply to: deadeyedick

Look up Darwin Awards. Because you don't know what you are doing, you should be careful lest you fill up your garage with chlorine trying to see if the water bonds change energy with dissolved salt.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

you are correct. Precise conditions have to exist to get pure hho and all the hho claims are based on browns gas that varies from conditions present at time of electrolsis. The addition of substances into water changes the outcome but the vast majority of combonations made are highly flamable.

To get the figures i got i may be cheating. I used the calulation that it takes 3.658kwh to seperate 1liter of water. To find the chemical energy value in one liter of that i just reversed the figure. I think in theory it should be correct. and that is if everything is 100% efficient.

a reply to: deadeyedick

If you're not using something like this chuck-wright.com... , then try it out. If nothing else it should keep your units straight.

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: deadeyedick



Look up Darwin Awards. Because you don't know what you are doing, you should be careful lest you fill up your garage with chlorine trying to see if the water bonds change energy with dissolved salt.

duh
it is a shame that you think i would not know what you are talking about even after i commented about it. I have done stupid stuff before like ignite 5gal. of browns gas at 30 psi just to see if it was true that there is power in what i was doing.

what is more a shame is the fact the claim was made that nothing can loosen the hydrogen bonds and it gets turned around to try to make it seem as though i am stupid and deserve a dumbass award for citing references that prove the claim false.


eta
to ignite the bucket of browns gas i used a hundred ft. water hose hooked up to the bucket that my output from the cells was hooked to. i had a regular water nozzle hooked up. anyhow it was quite beautiful to see water droplets form in the air as the whole thing seemed to implode on itself with about the loudest bang i have heard at that range.

I'll keep an eye on the obituaries for further updates.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: deadeyedick



Look up Darwin Awards. Because you don't know what you are doing, you should be careful lest you fill up your garage with chlorine trying to see if the water bonds change energy with dissolved salt.

duh
it is a shame that you think i would not know what you are talking about even after i commented about it. I have done stupid stuff before like ignite 5gal. of browns gas at 30 psi just to see if it was true that there is power in what i was doing.

what is more a shame is the fact the claim was made that nothing can loosen the hydrogen bonds and it gets turned around to try to make it seem as though i am stupid and deserve a dumbass award for citing references that prove the claim false.

You have to remember though, anything used to lessen the bonds is a null point. Conservation of energy...if you're using a chemical to loosen the bonds there's several issues aside from that too...

Edit: And let me be clear, Upon years of working in Tech fields I've yet to see a device reach 100% efficiency. Especially when in regards to HHO. If you were using chemicals to weaken bonds, that's an entirely different set of units we need to be dealing with.

a reply to: Jenisiz

indeed we start getting into dangerous ground that most should not know exist

however the point remains that i produced 12lpm browns gas at an electrical input rate of 1000watts

the internet is chocked full of claims like mine where back yard producers do one thing and it gets said that it is impossible

everytime the figures that we are discussing here come into play and the term overunity is impossible is stated over and over but i have clearly shown that while it is described as overunity it is not really but it is possible to produce more hho than the figures that are givin to electrolsis of pure water

fact is that hydrogen bonds can be weakened by several different factors

the most safe and inexpensive alternative to offset the current rate of gasoline consumption of i.c.e. is to simple use a vapor bong instead of the current injection methoed.

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
I have this notion that a liter of water would be ~ 111 g hydrogen and ~ 889 g oxygen. Am I off on that?

Good approximation. Rounding to the nearest gram it would be 112 g hydrogen and ~ 888 g oxygen because the ratio isn't exactly 8 to 1, and I would phrase it that is the composition of 1000 grams of water because a liter of water rarely has 1000 grams of mass, as it must be at 4 degrees C for that to happen, but if you're not trying to be too precise you can assume 1.0 density for rough calculations and the 8 to 1 mass ratio is also a decent rough estimate.

The more precise ratio is based on these figures from Wikipedia articles for hydrogen and oxygen:
The atomic weight of Hydrogen is 1.0081
The atomic weight of Oxygen is 15.9994

originally posted by: DenyObfuscation
What effect does this have on calculations by liter? I'm thinking we can't just say 2/3 of a liter of the H2 O2 is H2 gas.

As you pointed out, the ratio by mass is about 8:1.

However for the gas, by volume, I think the 2:1 ratio is a good approximation but as Bedlam pointed out you may have some impurities or what not since we don't commonly perform electrolysis on distilled water in commercial applications, so that wouldn't be exact in the real world.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

3.658 kWh = 13.17 MJ

1 L of water - 112 g hydrogen = 15.91 MJ

If those figures are accurate a self powered 'loop' would require 82.7% efficiency to break even?

Could such a thing even be possible? I would think not.

a reply to: deadeyedick

lol
it is quite simple
1w=1joule per second
1000w=1000joules per second
1000w per min=60,000 joules

No offense, but if you can't do the dimensional analysis to understand that 1000 W/min is not the same as 60,000 J, you're sunk before you even started.

I don't think anyone would argue with this:

1 W = 1 J/s

Effectively, you're multiplying both sides by 1000 in your second step:

1000 W = 1000 J/s

And then in the third step, you're dividing both sides by 60 seconds (which is what per means), which is equivalent to multiplying both sides by 60:

16.7 W/s = 16.7 J/s^2

To get the answer that you're trying to get to in your third step, you would need to MULTIPLY both sides by 60 s, which would give:

60,000 W s = 60,000 J

Or, since you seem to like minutes instead of SI units:

1000 W min = 60,000 J

Saying a "watt per minute" is meaningless in terms of units.

a reply to: DenyObfuscation

now just piss in the water and you get greater efficiency.

originally posted by: iterationzero
a reply to: deadeyedick

lol

it is quite simple

1w=1joule per second

1000w=1000joules per second

1000w per min=60,000 joules

No offense, but if you can't do the dimensional analysis to understand that 1000 W/min is not the same as 60,000 J, you're sunk before you even started.



I don't think anyone would argue with this:



1 W = 1 J/s



Effectively, you're multiplying both sides by 1000 in your second step:



1000 W = 1000 J/s



And then in the third step, you're dividing both sides by 60 seconds (which is what per means), which is equivalent to multiplying both sides by 60:



16.7 W/s = 16.7 J/s^2



To get the answer that you're trying to get to in your third step, you would need to MULTIPLY both sides by 60 s, which would give:



60,000 W s = 60,000 J



Or, since you seem to like minutes instead of SI units:



1000 W min = 60,000 J



Saying a "watt per minute" is meaningless in terms of units.

either way i arrived at the same location without being sunk although i think i did make a few heads steam and spin

a reply to: deadeyedick

You seem to be confusing hydrogen bonds, such as the kind that form between water molecules, with the covalent H-O bonds within the water molecule that you're trying to break via electrolysis. Two totally different concepts. You seem to be indicating that you can change bond energy by adding salt or something to the solution and this has something to do with freezing point depression, which it doesn't.

originally posted by: deadeyedick

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: deadeyedick



Look up Darwin Awards. Because you don't know what you are doing, you should be careful lest you fill up your garage with chlorine trying to see if the water bonds change energy with dissolved salt.

duh
it is a shame that you think i would not know what you are talking about even after i commented about it. I have done stupid stuff before like ignite 5gal. of browns gas at 30 psi just to see if it was true that there is power in what i was doing.

what is more a shame is the fact the claim was made that nothing can loosen the hydrogen bonds and it gets turned around to try to make it seem as though i am stupid and deserve a dumbass award for citing references that prove the claim false.


eta
to ignite the bucket of browns gas i used a hundred ft. water hose hooked up to the bucket that my output from the cells was hooked to. i had a regular water nozzle hooked up. anyhow it was quite beautiful to see water droplets form in the air as the whole thing seemed to implode on itself with about the loudest bang i have heard at that range.

Hydrogen bonding is something different; it is a dipole-dipole interaction and the reason why water has such a high relative boiling point. I didn't say you were stupid; I said that you didn't know what you were doing. The 100' hose full of an oxygen hydrogen mix proves my point.
Electrolyzing salt water because you thought that salt would weaken the hydrogen-oxygen bond would generate chlorine and could ruin your day and maybe your lungs making you eligible for the Darwin Awards. Remember to use flash arrestors when playing with stoichiometric mixtures of oxygen and hydrogen. Have fun playing but be careful.

What do you think you've proven false?