HHO Truth

I have been researching the energy found within hho and thought it would be fun to share with you what i believe i have found. I do not post much in this forum for many reasons but i do value the input i may get here on this subject.

My goal is to simple bring understanding to the amount of power found in hho. It could easily be that my figures are a bit off. I am not much learned in formal sciences but do see the need for clairity on this subjects.

Here is what i think i have found.

42.3btu min/1hp

1 liter of water = 1234 liters of h2 and 604liters of oxygen=1840 liters of hho

9.54btu min =1liter hh0 at atmospheric pressure

4.43liters hho per min=1hp/min.

My goal is to end the conspiracy of hho or browns gas. I think if we can get a exact figure of how much hho is = to 1hp/min. To the best of my knowledge i have done that. The next step would be to know how much electric energy is required to produce hho.

In my personal expierence i have made 12lpm at 1000watts/min

3.658kwh to seperate 1liter of water
219.48 kwm
219480 wpm
119.282 wpliter hho

5hp 3500watt generator could produce 29.34 lpm and use 22.15 lpm hho to run 1 min.
Figures are based on pure water without koh

OVERUNITY

This is a prime example of big oils cover up.

That is unless anyone cares to debunk the figures if possible.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
I am not much learned in formal sciences but do see the need for clairity on this subjects.

Believe it or not some formal training can actually help.

4.43liters hho per min=1hp/min.

In my personal expierence i have made 12lpm at 1000watts/min

originally posted by: deadeyedick
That is unless anyone cares to debunk the figures if possible.

Your efforts are admirable, but your units of hp/min and watts/min show that you don't really understand the units, something which is essential to do what you're trying to do. Both hp and watts already include the time element, since a watt for example is one joule per second. so 1000 watts/min would be 1000 joules per second per minute, so why do you have two units of time in the denominator? This is where a little formal training might help as it would help prevent this kind of error.

Also even if you get a lot of training, calorimetry has a famous reputation for being challenging after a couple of highly trained PhD scientists apparently didn't get their calorimetry quite right either. Ever hear of "Pons and Fleischman" and their "cold fusion" experiment? That was based on calorimetry, albeit a more complicated experiment but still there are lots of ways to get calorimetry wrong, so don't feel bad if it's challenging for you, if it was challenging for some PhD scientists.

Regarding your claim of "In my personal expierence i have made 12lpm", made 12lpm of what exactly? a combination of H2 and O2 gas at atmospheric pressure? If you really made 12 liters of that in one minute with 1000 watts then your electrolysis efficiency would be over 100%, but given the difficulty of the topic and that your units aren't even right it's more likely that you made other errors in addition to your units, than it is that you exceeded 100% efficiency in your electrolysis. If you wanted to describe the specifics of exactly how you measured that 12 liters per minute and how you measured the 1000 watts, we might be able to determine some possible ways to improve the accuracy of your measurements.

Here is an HHO website talking about the difficulty of making accurate HHO measurements, and while I wouldn't concede accurate measurements are impossible, I would agree they can be difficult and you can note these errors tend to overestimate the amount of HHO:

www.hho4free.com...

there is no precise way to measure the HHO realistically. There are just too many types of measuring devices being used, and each one of them provides different measurements. People are using oxygen meters, hydrogen meters, air meters, natural gas meters, welding gas meters, and even some hydroxy meters which are manufactured by reputable companies.

If you are using an Air meter to measure the HHO, then the amount of gas you are measuring is way more than what is actually being produced. So 1/2 LPM per Liter of engine displacement may be a good rule of thumb for you to use to.

If you are using an Oxygen meter to measure HHO, then the amount of gas you are measuring is still more than what is actually being produced. So 1/4 LPM per Liter of engine displacement may be a good rule of thumb.

That site does agree with some of your other numbers but I think it points to a possible source of problems with your 12 liters per minute number.

is that the best debunking ats has to offer

the 12lpm figures were in no way part of any of the calculations i made that was noted in the op as being from my own expierence


i see that many people want to agree with you but can not give examples of where i am wrong


the best of all is that the site you gave is where i got many of the figures and from there i used online conversion apps.

like i said in the op the goal is to dumb down the math to a level that is common to more people

wanting the so called expert debunkers here to offer a best estimation of how many btu's is in a liter of hho at normal pressure is not that big of a deal

how about we take it one step at a time?

true or false? according to physics it takes 119.282 watts to produce one liter of hho atm

Arbitrageur

"Regarding your claim of "In my personal expierence i have made 12lpm", made 12lpm of what exactly? a combination of H2 and O2 gas at atmospheric pressure? If you really made 12 liters of that in one minute with 1000 watts then your electrolysis efficiency would be over 100%, but given the difficulty of the topic and that your units aren't even right it's more likely that you made other errors in addition to your units, than it is that you exceeded 100% efficiency in your electrolysis."

I guess i have to play the bs games to get any truth from anyone.
You made the claim that 12lpm of hho being produced in 1 min with a 1000watt input would be over 100% efficiency

Now show me how you determined that. Do you have some base level of efficiency that you used to do the math?

Also the claim you made that what i stated was over 100% could never have been accurately determined by you because i never stated the parameters i was using when i done that.

Was i using pure water? Was i using an agent to help aid in the process of seperating the bonds?

How could you being formally educated coming in here and taking shots at my percieved ignorrance come to any conclusions about what 100% effieient is if that level has not been established?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
is that the best debunking ats has to offer

Um, given that your calculations are the product of someone who doesn't understand basic algebra then yep, I'd say it was totally sufficient.

If you don't understand basic units, you can hang up calorimetry.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
like i said in the op the goal is to dumb down the math to a level that is common to more people

You don't gain much if you dumb it down until it's totally bogus.

Dimensional analysis is your friend.

bedlam
I expected better from you givin your post history.

Be specific in pointing out my failures so that everyone can see exactly what you are claiming is wrong.

The question i set out to answer is how much energy is required to produce 1l of browns gas atm from water.
answer 119.282 watts per liter hho at atmospheric pressure

How much energy is contained in 1l of browns gas atm
answer 9.54btu= 2 405.64838 calories=1liter hh0 at atmospheric pressure

a reply to: deadeyedick

5hp 3500watt generator could produce 29.34 lpm and use 22.15 lpm hho to run 1 min.
Figures are based on pure water without koh

OVERUNITY

Sweet. Where's the video? You have at least tried to run the generator using the HHO produced and ran into the pesky issue of what to do with all the excess gas, right?

check youtube there are many vids that show that my math is correct and a genny can run on browns gas.

the question is not if it is possible to run a genny on browns gas but the question is how much gas would it take to run a generator on browns gas. My point here is that science should be able to accurately answer that question regardless of the answer. Even if the answer is that it takes one billion liters of browns gas that should not stop all of the so called experts from giving their answer.

originally posted by: deadeyedick
bedlam
I expected better from you givin your post history.

Be specific in pointing out my failures so that everyone can see exactly what you are claiming is wrong.

The question i set out to answer is how much energy is required to produce 1l of browns gas atm from water.
answer 119.282 watts per liter hho at atmospheric pressure

Ok, let's look at that right there. Watts are a unit of power. You need units of energy. You can't say 119.282 Watts per liter, because it's a power unit. Watts for what, a nanosecond? A picosecond? Power x time is energy. You need an energy figure.

So there's an exactly. You're confusing power and energy here. Before, you were using nonsense units by dividing by time. Units are real things. You deal with them in equations just like they were numbers. That's why dimensional analysis is your friend. If the units don't come out right, you get a clue you screwed up.

Sometime after we untangle power and energy, we'll get back to significant figures, which you're also having a problem with.

How much energy is contained in 1l of browns gas atm
answer 9.54btu= 2 405.64838 calories=1liter hh0 at atmospheric pressure

Question - how do you know? Where did you get that from? Why are you calling it "hho"? Are you implying the oxygen and hydrogen are monatomic, or that you're burning monatomic hydrogen in hydroxyl radicals, or what? I'm aware that the "My electrolysis end-products are better than normal" group calls it HHO, but I've never figured out why. Other than the obvious wanting to claim their electrolysis product is somehow NOT H2 and O2, which isn't true and they have never proven.

a reply to: deadeyedick

check youtube there are many vids that show that my math is correct

Well then what's the issue here? Make the vid and flaunt your overunity. Maybe get a new suit to wear when you pick up that Nobel prize.

You rock!

originally posted by: deadeyedick
Even if the answer is that it takes one billion liters of browns gas that should not stop all of the so called experts from giving their answer.

If you're looking for an exact answer of H2 and O2 mixed being burned in an internal combustion engine fed to an alternator through some unspecified mechanical coupling, you're not going to get an exact answer, because you've got a number of unpredictably inefficient chunks in the power chain.

If you're looking for the calorimetry numbers, you get 141.9 kJ/g of hydrogen.

bedlam

that is watts per minute

I agree that is not a standard way of going about this.

3.658kwh to seperate 1liter of water

no this does not have to be exact and we can call it browns gas

currently there is not even any close guesses.

i like the idea of converting to hp or ftlbs

like i said my goal is to put it in more general terms

originally posted by: deadeyedick
You made the claim that 12lpm of hho being produced in 1 min with a 1000watt input would be over 100% efficiency

Now show me how you determined that. Do you have some base level of efficiency that you used to do the math?

100% efficiency of hydrogen production is give here:

Electrolysis of water

Efficiency of modern hydrogen generators is measured by power consumed per standard volume of hydrogen (MJ/m^3), assuming standard temperature and pressure of the H2. A 100%-efficient electrolyser would consume 11.7 MJ/m^3; the lower the actual power used, the higher efficiency.

If I compare your numbers to this reference, I have to account for the fact that you are including the volume of oxygen, and for every unit of hydrogen gas, there are 0.5 units of oxygen gas. So, 12 liters of HHO gas would be composed of 8 liters of hydrogen gas and 4 liters of oxygen gas.

To figure out how much energy is required to make 8 liters of hydrogen using a 100%-efficient electrolyser, multiply 0.008m^3 (8 liters) by 11.7 MJ = 93.6 kJ

You claimed to do this with only 60kJ (which is 1000 watts for one minute).

As the source says:

the lower the actual power used, the higher efficiency.

Since your 60kJ is lower than 93.6 kJ (100% efficiency), then your process would need to be more than 100% efficient to produce 12 liters of HHO (about 156% efficient).

Was i using pure water? Was i using an agent to help aid in the process of seperating the bonds?

Notice I didn't need to know any of that for my calculations.

a reply to: deadeyedick


Joules per second per minute doesn't make any physical sense. When you divide time like that in dimensional analysis you get Joules per second squared. And then you need to multiply time back in to get Work back as a meaningful quantity.

Again, joules per second per minute doesn't make any physical sense. How do I lift 10 apples* up one meter a second a minute? What would I actually be doing?

*an apple weighs about a Newton, so raising one up a meter is about 1 Watt.

Arbitrageur

The purity of water and additives effects the bond structure of the molecule.

you seem to be stating that 8lpm atm @1000w is near 100% efficient?

originally posted by: deadeyedick
you seem to be stating that 8lpm atm @1000w is near 100% efficient?

That's not even remotely close to what I said.

framedragged

I get what you are saying but i don't see what mistake i made that it relates too. I seen nothing in the post you replied to that was in error

Arbitrageur



"Since your 60kJ is lower than 93.6 kJ (100% efficiency), then your process would need to be more than 100% efficient to produce 12 liters of HHO (about 156% efficient)."

if 12l is about 156% efficient then 8l would b about 100% efficient.

by your figures i deduced that that was what you said.