Full video of Tamir Rice shooting released

a reply to: FraggleRock

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this situation because everything about it is wrong. Nobody asks law enforcement to be infallible. We simply ask them to use sound judgement, logical assessment, and appropriate force when needed. We also ask that those who do not do those things are to be held accountable for their actions.

Very well said.

originally posted by: thesmokingman
a reply to: Jamie1

Makes me want to join the militia.

Aaaaand......you are on a list.

Um... I mean a militia to protect and defend the rights of the police..... yeah, that's the ticket. That's what I meant. Really. I mean a militia is ok in the Constitution, right? We have a right to form a militia.... um.... to protect the State. Yeah, that's what I meant.

originally posted by: FraggleRock

originally posted by: Edumakated

This was just a tragic accident all around

I don't know that anyone is really at fault. With that said, I do think the cop that shot him was a bit too quick on the trigger, but it is easy to Monday morning quarterback when it isn't your life on the line. Cops are not infallible. This isn't the first case of a child being killed with a toy gun and unfortunately, it also won't be the last.

Accidents can bring criminal charges, at least from the civilian side of the fence they can.

Both officers are at fault in this case. The driver chose to approach a scene where the report is a person with a gun by pulling up alongside said person with gun. The passenger, failing to suggest an approach from a further (safer) distance, shot his firearm the moment his door opened, allowing no chance for compliance to any verbal commands from the person with gun.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this situation because everything about it is wrong. Nobody asks law enforcement to be infallible. We simply ask them to use sound judgement, logical assessment, and appropriate force when needed. We also ask that those who do not do those things are to be held accountable for their actions.

Like I said, it is easy to Monday morning quarterback when you aren't the one being called to respond to a scene.

a reply to: Edumakated
Its remarkably easy, this guy shouldn't of been a cop..his old dept said so..and what kind of pos shoots a kid and then lets him lay there for ..what 4 mins??..thats the part I will never understand.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: FraggleRock

originally posted by: Edumakated

This was just a tragic accident all around

I don't know that anyone is really at fault. With that said, I do think the cop that shot him was a bit too quick on the trigger, but it is easy to Monday morning quarterback when it isn't your life on the line. Cops are not infallible. This isn't the first case of a child being killed with a toy gun and unfortunately, it also won't be the last.

Accidents can bring criminal charges, at least from the civilian side of the fence they can.

Both officers are at fault in this case. The driver chose to approach a scene where the report is a person with a gun by pulling up alongside said person with gun. The passenger, failing to suggest an approach from a further (safer) distance, shot his firearm the moment his door opened, allowing no chance for compliance to any verbal commands from the person with gun.

It's easy to Monday morning quarterback this situation because everything about it is wrong. Nobody asks law enforcement to be infallible. We simply ask them to use sound judgement, logical assessment, and appropriate force when needed. We also ask that those who do not do those things are to be held accountable for their actions.

Like I said, it is easy to Monday morning quarterback when you aren't the one being called to respond to a scene.

I get your point, but the cops were called about a potential perp with a gun scaring people. It's not illegal to own a gun. If people were scared, that's not a crime.

For all the cops knew when they rolled in the person with the gun could have been a citizen responding to the initial perp. Maybe he was deaf, or mentally disabled.

No reason to roll in and shoot him dead in 2 seconds. No reason to roll in and open up the door right in front of a guy with a gun. Proper procedure would be to stop at a distance, and have both cops get out of the car, behind their doors, and order the perp to drop the gun.

Just my opinion, but I think you can Monday morning quarterback on cops shooting a suspect dead in 2 seconds. What crime was he committing? There was nobody he was threatening. Nobody being held hostage. Nothing was at risk by not shooting him.

# their lists. This officer should hang from the nearest tree, shot in the stomach, and left to bleed out. Hows that for a goddamn list huh?? They can take them lists and shove it up their arses. a list, bitch please. Like thats scary or something.

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: Domo1

This was just a tragic accident all around

I don't know that anyone is really at fault. With that said, I do think the cop that shot him was a bit too quick on the trigger, but it is easy to Monday morning quarterback when it isn't your life on the line. Cops are not infallible. This isn't the first case of a child being killed with a toy gun and unfortunately, it also won't be the last.

This was more like a coldblooded execution.. Was his life on the line? really?? I really hope your not a cop...

a reply to: DYepes

# their lists. This officer should hang from the nearest tree, shot in the stomach, and left to bleed out. Hows that for a goddamn list huh?? They can take them lists and shove it up their arses. a list, bitch please. Like thats scary or something.

This.....this 100 times!

Looks like another suicide by cop to me and thats probably what they figured too!! When was this one last year??

Since when did we employ a mobile firing squad, to protect and serve.This is MURDER by the police. No way can any police officer justify the actions taken against this person. The cop literally jumped out of the car and began shooting. When did the cop have anytime to issue a warning. Problem these days is more and more police believe they are above the law, and that it doesnt apply to them, they just make up the law as it happens. This is ridiculous

a reply to: Domo1

The only blunder I see is the immediacy with which the officer opened fire, but even then, it's hard to tell what Tamir Rice was doing with that weapon (that, remember, had the orange tip altered or removed, causing the weapon to look very realistic). If he was pointing it toward the officer as he pulled up or started to exit, I can't lie--the shooting is appropriate, as anyone who doesn't live in Hollywood "reality" knows that the side of a car or a car door will NOT stop bullets from killing you.

As for his sister--her age has nothing to do with how she was handeled. For all the officers know, she could have been running into the scenario with a weapon as well. Detaining her and stopping her from entering the scene is absolutely an appropriate thing to do.

Like you seem to be, I am also a bit torn on this one. I don't know why the officers got so close, but as one poster noted, the wet soggy grass may have gotten them closer than they intended to be. But regardless, without having clear view of how Tamir Rice was holding the weapon (yes, even Airsoft guns are weapons) and what he was doing with it when officers entered view, it's impossible for me to have a solid conclusion because I just too ignorant to pertinent facts.

It's very, VERY easy to judge officers' actions with 20/20 hindsight that has incomplete evidence and data, and it's even easier to let emotion enter the situation and cloud one's judgment. The most responsible thing to do, of course, is to wait and see what evidence is presented to the grand jury (anyone know for when that is scheduled?).

ETA: After reading some of the responses and criticisms of some of the responses, it's readily apparent that there is a large population on ATS that has:

(a) Never been trained in self defense with a firearm, especially in an official capacity like an LEO or Service Member, and
(b) Too many of you on here only seem to understand how to think with emotion.

It's really a sad narrative on some of the people on this site. You don't have all the details of what the young Mr. Rice was doing right before shots were fired--it's impossible to tell from the video. If you choose to be delusional and think that you have all the answers and that there's no way that the officer acted appropriately, so be it, but those of us who are capable of setting aside childish emotions and, instead, use patience and logic before coming to an inflammatory conclusion have a much better chance at "denying ignorance" in the long run.

I would suggest more of you try using patience in situations like this...I know it's really hard in a society so accustomed to immediate gratification, but it really would speak much better about humanity as a whole that we can be willing to be sad, upset and angry that a 12-year-old has died, but do so in an appropriate way without calling for the torturous deaths of LEOs when there are still gaping holes in the details of what happened.

I sincerely hope that this case receives an indictment--personally, I think all LEO-involved cases like this that lack overwhelming evidence of justification for deadly force should be automatic indictments--but it is impossible at this point in time, with the evidence that the general public has, to condemn this officer as a murderous, some would say racist, tyrant of a human being.

Why did they leave him lying there without rendering aid?..all the "I wasn't there or ignorant of the facts" does not change that fact. Subhuman behavior..I challenge anyone to count to 240 one second at a time..its along time while a child is bleeding/shot.
Please rationaly explain it for me as my judgement is obviously clouded

If you look closely with the video enlarged, you can see the kid writhing around just past the hood of the car. You can make out the white in his jacket as it changes direction several times indicating he didn't die immediately. Even as his sister comes running, he's rolling around beside the car.

originally posted by: vonclod
Why did they leave him lying there without rendering aid?..all the "I wasn't there or ignorant of the facts" does not change that fact. Subhuman behavior..I challenge anyone to count to 240 one second at a time..its along time while a child is bleeding/shot.

Please rationaly explain it for me as my judgement is obviously clouded

I can't, because I don't have all the facts. But as the comment after yours points out, it appears that he was still moving around on the ground for an unknown amount of time. IF...and all of these are conjectures...but, IF he had the pistol in his grip, still, that would stop an LEO from approaching the individual.

Like I said, I'm eagerly awaiting more evidence, but at this time, unless you have an inside track to the evidence of the case, all of these types of questions just can't have a concrete answer yet.

But, if it turns out the weapon was nowhere near Rice, and the officers just let him bleed to death, then I completely agree with your outrage about it. But, again, at this time, that's just a what-if scenario.

a reply to: Jamie1

It is not a crime to own a firearm, or even to open carry in the state of Ohio.

It is, however, a crime to take said firearm, brandish the weapon in publib, instill fear in others with it (that is legally a threat in the court system), and waive it around for the general public to see.

The fact of whether or not the weapon was a real firearm is irrelevant to the facts, because it is impossible to tell from more than a few feet away. We wouldn't expect a similar response not to happen if, say, a person was standing in a park holding a pipe bomb, would we? Even if there were no explosive within the pipe bomb, it's impossible to tell, and if said hypothetical person were walking around and holding it out for all to see, I'm sorry, but I wouldn't fault an LEO for responding with deadly force.

On the other hand, and a point you made with which I agree--I would expect at least some sort of attempt to reason with the individual prior to just jumping out of their cruiser and shooting him. Of course, and pipe bomb, with a limited radius of potential damage, and a firearm possibly pointed at you when you arrive that can kill you from hundreds of yards away is a different scenario altogether, which require a tailored response per the potential weapon's capabilities to harm you and others in the area.

a reply to: Domo1

It looks like if they would have stopped far enough away to talk to him they could have prevented what looks like suicide by cop. You see the boy does raise his hands in what looks like shooting stance in the first seconds. There was no hostage, no one in danger of being shot, there certainly should have been dialog not just pull up and kill shots!

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Edumakated
Its remarkably easy, this guy shouldn't of been a cop..his old dept said so..and what kind of pos shoots a kid and then lets him lay there for ..what 4 mins??..thats the part I will never understand.

This is what makes me really angry, we have been seeing this alot, you shoot and then just let the person lay there and slowly die. No ambulance calls the police often just stand around like this talking instead and prevent anyone else from helping the person either. I can't imagine that this would be policy, most of these people are "accused" or "suspected" not even know to be guilty of the supposed crime.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Since this case had already been discussed some of us are going off of information previously presented.

Previous thread

And that information includes the department's official statement that Tamir was not pointing the gun at officers at any time during the encounter. The officer who shot Tamir claims to have told Tamir to drop his gun 3 times, which according to this officer was in his waistband. He proceed to fire 2 shots when Tamir pulled the gun from his waistband. Though some procedural experts suggest no commands were given at all as their approach afforded no time between their arrival and the shooting.

Police said at a press conference that Loehmann called out for Tamir three times to drop his gun before he opened fire. However, the video shows Loehmann firing his gun within seconds of coming into contact with Tamir, and Williams said it looks like no verbal commands were given.

Source

a reply to: Domo1


For some reason I can't bring myself to watch this video. Little kids getting SMOKED for no real reason is just tragic.

a reply to: FraggleRock

Official statement states that verbal commands were given, but it appears that this isn't the case.

Official statement states that gun wasn't pointed at officers...but if one part of statement is inaccurate, is it not safe to assume that we shouldn't trust the entirety of the statement as of yet and wait until further evidence, if any, concerning the location of the weapon at the time of the officers speeding up to Rice comes to light?

Sadly, the video doesn't show the weapon clearly. Maybe that can be sharpened up a bit, maybe not. I hope it can, because in cases like this, seeing is believing--at least for me. Blindly trusting "official statements" doesn't work for me.

Thanks for the response, though.