Obama to propose 2 free years of community college

a reply to: Khaleesi

Have you been to college? All students HAVE is free time. They don't need any more time during the day freed up. As far as the cost goes, why does it matter? They are spending their money to pay for the course. Right now that money is a loan that has a high chance of not being paid back. If we got government uninvolved with the student loan game then maybe students would be a bit more discerning with which courses they spend their money on. Though that's advocating personal responsibility. Can we handle that?

originally posted by: buster2010
Besides free higher education would go against the Republican agenda of keeping everyone stupid.

Well, that was about as useful and accurate a comment as me saying "Expecting students to pay for their schooling themselves would go against the Democrat agenda of keeping everyone dependent on handouts from the taxpayers." :rolleyes:

a reply to: burdman30ott6

And Free Community College automagically means a smart public.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Khaleesi

Have you been to college? All students HAVE is free time. They don't need any more time during the day freed up. As far as the cost goes, why does it matter? They are spending their money to pay for the course. Right now that money is a loan that has a high chance of not being paid back. If we got government uninvolved with the student loan game then maybe students would be a bit more discerning with which courses they spend their money on. Though that's advocating personal responsibility. Can we handle that?

Yes I have been to college. Would you like to see my degree? Geez you need to back up. They are spending money they don't have. Spending money that they are borrowing and having to pay interest on. College SHOULD be about learning, not taking useless classes that do nothing more than add to the cost. Students today (some, not all) have no clue about debt because they are into instant gratification. No one, and I mean NO ONE is teaching responsibility. Maybe if these courses, for fun were only offered for money upfront, no including the cost of electives into a loan, they would get it. So they aren't repaying the loans and adding to that cost by taking useless classes? Maybe if their debt was not so high they might try to pay it back.

a reply to: Khaleesi

Well since you've been to college you should know that each college requires you to take a certain number of major credits and a certain number of gen ed credits. The college usually breaks these gen ed classes into categories (like history, social issues, etc). Of the gen ed classes there are certain classes that you HAVE to take (ex: an English class). Of the remaining credits you have to pick and choose with in the different categories getting a usually a class per category or something similar. However, there does remain a small batch of credits that you have to get but no stipulations on what to take. You NEED these credits to graduate, so you have to take something. Therefore it reasons that the students taking classes like Star Trek Philosophy are racking up similar debt levels as someone (with the same major) taking Intro to Logic 101 instead.

originally posted by: macman
a reply to: burdman30ott6

And Free Community College automagically means a smart public.

"You can lead a horse to water... but you can't make him drink."

Of course for some reason we now have people who are failing to grasp an important point made throughout this thread: Don't let your horse get dehydrated in the first place. It amazes me to see posts where people will admit that the existing system is badly broken and in the same breath advocate tacking on additional years to the same broken system. Why not spend this $34 Billion FIRST on patching the Swiss cheese which is K-12 education in America and see what fruits those repairs yield?

Oh wait, that's right... folks younger than 18 don't vote. Silly me.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

If you're willing to work for it, you can go just about anywhere, even private schools, without incurring debt, simply by working...a lot. But I'm pretty sure you can go to most state schools on full ride scholarships simply by acing the SAT. Who would want two free years of community college when they can get four free years at a university?

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

I've got to say, Star Trek Philosophy actually *could* be really good, if administered properly

a reply to: StalkerSolent

Funnily enough, I'm not making it up. It was in neo's link.

5. “Philosophy And Star Trek” (Georgetown) – Star Trek is very philosophical. What better way, then, to learn philosophy, than to watch Star Trek, read philosophy, and hash it all out in class? That’s the plan. This course is basically an introduction to certain topics in metaphysics and epistemology philosophy, centered around major philosophical questions that come up again and again in Star Trek. In conjunction with watching Star Trek, we will read excerpts from the writings of great philosophers, extract key concepts and arguments and then analyze those arguments.

Edit: That's actually a pretty legit class for a Philosophy class now that I actually read its description. I'd take it to fulfill my gen ed requirements.

a reply to: Krazysh0t
Did you even read my first post? I said reduce the number of credits needed to get a degree. Don't lecture me about how college works. I know exactly how it works and that is part of the reason it is expensive. Requiring credits that are too generalized. Keep the core requirements and reduce the number of electives. Shorter time in college with fewer courses equals cheaper education. Simple math. I use to respect you but apparently you have a need to demean intelligent people simply because they disagree with you.

a reply to: Khaleesi

That only works in the short term to reduce cost. I've thought like that before and at first it makes sense. Yes, it reduces cost now since less classes are being purchased, but it doesn't fix the overarching problem. That government intervention continually raises the supply and demand equilibrium point (which raises price).

As long as the government is federally backing student loans, then the price on tuition will continue to skyrocket. Eventually the drop in price that we achieved by scaling back on classes will be restored and then surpassed. We will be right back where we are now except now we've stripped our higher education to the bone. What then? How do we reduce costs then?

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Oh, no, I know you weren't! I think I saw that link a while back while browsing around. Thought it would be a terrible class until I started watching Star Trek. Not trying to argue in favor of useless classes or anything, just defending Star Trek's strong point. I guess I must be a Trekkie.

More on topic, I tend to agree with your earlier post. I'm not as familiar with the college loan game, but I don't see any real obstacles to people working their way through college or taking private loans as it is. I don't really see the point of involving the federal government in the student loan situation.

Personally, I wish a college degree wasn't viewed as a must-have to be successful in this country.

a reply to: StalkerSolent

I'm pretty sure that link has shown up here on ATS a few times actually. I'm pretty sure I've read it before too.

You bring up a good point. Because of the idea that a college degree is a must have, jobs that never required degrees require degrees now. Jobs like simple data entry and such. It's jobs like these that add to that national statistic of people unable to pay back their student loans.

a reply to: macman

Free technical courses like welding, cable/phone installation, EMT, ect. make a society that is better trained and overall more productive?

I like the idea of free community college but the approve classes must be either core classes toward a 4 year degree or something technical that will give the students skills they can actually get paid for.

We can afford this, we bankroll a military with clear imperialistic intentions around the world. Only a fool would think otherwise.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I actually agree that government needs to get out of the student loan business but, I also think reducing the number of electives would help. My problem is that first you say these 'fun' classes are just fillers and now you say we will be stripping education to the bone if we get rid of them. Which is it? Not all electives are useless but let's get real. Some of these classes are just garbage. Hey I'm a big trekker. Got TOS on dvd even. Keep the class but make them pay up front for them or the students could do like I said and organize groups that talk about the subject FOR FREE. You know, they could actually be in social groups that TALK instead of texting each other. We actually had social groups where I went to college.

The main financial problem I personally see might lie in the private community college sector. I do not know US community college system well enough to tell, but what I mean is private community colleges should not be involved in this, otherwise this would just mean higher costs. I prefer the system where every college/university is fully-government owned, the employees getting their salaries set and paid by the government. This might lead to underpaid academics sometimes, but in the end, this is better, as the ones truly passionate about teaching will stay whatever the salary.

I do agree with higher education being paid by the taxpayers. In the end, education is an investment into the future of a nation, especially nowadays, where knowledge and science becoming the main drivers of the economy, especially considering the advancements of robotics. This would also lessen the difference between the classes. Top universities should be attended by only the brightest not the ones who are able to pay for it. A billionaire´s son should be left out, whatever he is willing to pay, if the son of a homeless person is brighter.

originally posted by: conspiracy nut
how about spending that 34 billion in trying to bring manufacturing jobs back to the u.s.

Dude, I'll see your "How about spending that 34 billion in trying to bring manufacturing jobs back to the u.s." and raise it with:

"How about spending that 34 billion trying to cure world hunger?"

You know it's estimated that it takes about 30 to 40 billion dollars to cure world hunger right?

borgenproject.org...

Talking about setting priorities straight.

a reply to: Khaleesi

Classes like this existed just fine before government got involved with student loans. Only after it got involved are we trying to cut all the fat.

Look, without government intervention the banks will have to be a bit more selective when they approve loans for students. This means that the loan amounts won't be for as much either. So the student would have to be more discerning about the classes he chose.

Keep in mind, at the end of the day college is a business. Those 100 level gen eds are a great way for the department that the class is attached to to make money to fund department things like research, higher level classes, teacher pay, etc. It also allows for a fun, educational outlet for the students to incorporate things they know and like into their learning. I see no reason to cut these classes. The fat that needs to be cut, is the government.

ps: students still have social groups at college... I think you are buying into generational propaganda bias.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Frankly, I'd rather see more students go to technical/trade schools. Learn how to do a real job that will always be needed, such as plumbing, electrical, welding etc. I actually sat and listened to a girl whine and cry because her parents cut her off because her major was .... wait for it .... FILM CRITIQUE ! Yeah she thought that was a great major because it was FUN! Meanwhile, I'd rather pay a mechanic to fix my car. Someone to critique my film choices? Not so much.

a reply to: burdman30ott6

Heard about this but as a parent I wondered what "working for it" entails? I know that there are limited spots in the workforce at universities and even less at community colleges. CCC Camps on the horizon? Military duty in the new mega city contracts?