The Loss of Femininity in The USA

a reply to: misskat1

Me too exactly! This happened to me. I got stuck with taking care of everything and being taken for granted, got hurt and angry and the rest I won't tell.

Its just the nature of the beast. Both male and female beast. I dont think its anything more then that, and if it is. Well the only thing being that were likely being more conditioned to be dispensable interchangeable cogs in society. So no! Like the other thread I dont think there is anything going on but that which is obvious. Besides everybody has all these ideas on how the other gender is, and most of it is wrong. Its all just looking at it from vantage points and pretending that that is all there is to it. So in the end whatever works for you, works...Whatever doesn't? Well then it doesn't. End of story.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Granted, I think you are right, that developing and manifesting our feminine side makes interdependence necessary.
(note- I refer to the feminine side in either gender).

I consider it a cultural phenomenon specific to the USA because I am familiar with another country which values inter-dependence over independence, and femininity in general is valued much more highly...

I don't think it is so much the time we are living in, as the place. The US was founded upon the values of independence, freedom, individualism- and has always devalued inter-dependence, collectivism, and solidarity.

I see lots of mention of women being dependent upon men, but not much of men being dependent upon women.
It is only a problem when the dependence is one way.

Men in touch with their own vulnerable side are just as dependent as a woman who is- just not in the same areas maybe.

a reply to: Realtruth

www.huffingtonpost.com...

check below the story for old misogynist ads. Yes let's get back to those days....

I'm not quite sure I understand your comparison, or even the need to bring the word misogynist into this thread.

The OP was in regards to the loss of femininity, not the hate of women. Femininity isn't time stamped, it's something that is timeless, just like masculinity.

If you took the time to read all the posts after the OP, then perhaps a negative response wouldn't be necessary.

originally posted by: QueenofWeird
a reply to: Realtruth

www.huffingtonpost.com...

check below the story for old misogynist ads. Yes let's get back to those days....

a reply to: WilsonWilson

Clean and tidy is taking care of yourself, faffing around with make up is something extra.

Agreed! I don't want a woman that has to take two hours to be presentable.

But in all honesty how many threads do you see on here by women moaning that men don't want to work and support them, and be caring and chivalrous etc.

I could care less about threads on ATS. What I'm talking about is the real world.

a reply to: Realtruth

Oh I read the list of supposed qualities a woman should have. I should have no such qualities because I am woman. I have the qualities that I have, as a person. I have not been "bred" to be the warm/intuitive/nurtering companion for a man!
That is why in an earlier post I talked about seeing people as persons instead as some list of supposed qualities.

The OP picture shows happy and confident women. And if that is not sexually appealing to the OP, WHO CARES? As if I would want to be with a man who sees me as a collection of feminine attributes. I am a person, not a character from a book.

So yes, that's for critisism.

originally posted by: QueenofWeird
a reply to: Realtruth

Oh I read the list of supposed qualities a woman should have. I should have no such qualities because I am woman. I have the qualities that I have, as a person. I have not been "bred" to be the warm/intuitive/nurtering companion for a man!

That is why in an earlier post I talked about seeing people as persons instead as some list of supposed qualities.

"Seeing people as persons" So you are implying that anyone that views those characteristics in the OP, those individuals are not people?

Humans don't stop at just "People" we identify by traits, physical characteristics, mannerisms, and judging from the minute we are born to the day we pass on.

"Person" is a human being male/female individual, but it doesn't stop there unfortunately because we as "People" need to further categorize. It's done for many reasons work, clothes, hygiene products, school, bathrooms, physical abilities, or limitations.

Can a man walk into a woman's bathroom and be seen as a person? Hell no! His ass would wind up in jail at best.

In an idealistic world it would be wonderful if everyone stopped at just a "Person", but we don't. Our society feels the need to put people into sub categories no matter what part of this planet we live in.

I have not been "bred" to be the warm/intuitive/nurtering companion for a man!

People should accept you for who you are, just because you don't fall under the qualities listed for feminine doesn't make you any less of a person.

There are many males that have many of those qualities listed in the OP, it doesn't make them any less of a man or person, but it sure does put more emphasis on them having feminine qualities.

Again the list is not something I invented it was from definitions of femininity, because you disagree, and/or because you may fit under another category does not make you less of a person.

originally posted by: QueenofWeird
a reply to: Realtruth

Oh I read the list of supposed qualities a woman should have. I should have no such qualities because I am woman. I have the qualities that I have, as a person. I have not been "bred" to be the warm/intuitive/nurtering companion for a man!
That is why in an earlier post I talked about seeing people as persons instead as some list of supposed qualities.

The OP picture shows happy and confident women. And if that is not sexually appealing to the OP, WHO CARES? As if I would want to be with a man who sees me as a collection of feminine attributes. I am a person, not a character from a book.

So yes, that's for critisism.

Nobody says you should have any qualities. The topic is about successful intimate relationships, and the role that masculine and feminine polarity plays in a successful relationship.

The key word here is intimate relationships. Without the intimate part, it's the same as any other relationship/friendship.

We are all people. Some characteristics of men and women will naturally attract the opposite polarity.

Don't criticize the OP, criticize life if you don't like it. That's how it works.

a reply to: Realtruth

Right on! I wear make up, am good looking AND I am independant, scientific minded. Somebody has to take me as a whole. I really look at people as persons, far beyond social constructs. Sure some things are biological. I don't have children, so what? Just because I am an XX do I need to be a mother? Once you see somebody as a whole panorama of traits you transcend stereotypes and allow somebody to be. Just be.

originally posted by: QueenofWeird
a reply to: Realtruth

Right on! I wear make up, am good looking AND I am independant, scientific minded. Somebody has to take me as a whole.

You just describe the woman of my dreams. How about coffee sometime?

Personally I don't gravitate toward needy women, but that is just a personal choice. I also appreciate women that can be a pain in my ass, feisty, not agree with everything I say.

Imo a woman that can stand on her own two feet is very attractive from many standpoints. The first is no matter what happens I know she would be able to take care of herself, and number two if we ever had a family together I know that if I walked out, in front of a bus and died, she would be able to take care of things.

When most people look for mates we typically don't look for someone that is weak, but unfortunate things happen so it's good to choose wisely. If people settle for someone that lacks than the only person they have to blame is themselves. lol

I have appreciated your input, and just because we don't agree on everything, doesn't mean I don't respect the things you say.

Warmest regards,

RT

So is this thing wrapped up yet. Now that we got to the bottom of this femininity thing, something about wearing suits and suiting needs tailored to whims, or whatever, the OP's pic speaks for you all I suppose. Or not! Who cares, its all stupid stuff.

I think you all may want to start with the more simpler things before tackling any such higher ideals as femininity or definitely masculinity. Something along the lines of "helllo my name is ...... yada yada yada, so what you want to do?'' Or some such. Ya know. Before trying to box it all into an unfitting ideal, or ideals. But then again what else is there to it but preconceived notions, for preconceived people.

Ideally nonchalant, speaks for the imagination of many, stick any and all thought in the empty box, its all about seeing what you want to see anyways. Who are you people, and if you have so much time to make up such meaningless jabber. Then I would say you have to much time on your hands. I have come to the conclusion that there is no such a thing as loss of femininity, its just to much of a paintjob over the old paintjob. Which has lead to a discoloring of anything real.

I mean after millennia of relying on the constructs of social outputs to achieve those ends. It has gone the way of the dodo, outside of it humans do not know how to function. The things you see around you are not there because they point the way or to help you, they are there because we have lost all touch with any real sense of things, so much so that it has become one long drawn out crappy play, etc etc, forever and ever. Ever creating and manufacturing ever more minute insecurities into ever more minute discrepancies, leading towards, who know what. Same old, same old, I suppose.

The OP referred to these qualities:


Thoughtfulness, natural beauty, vulnerability, empathy, intuition, patience, acceptance, sensuality.

Now, he didn’t say anything about women wearing anything in particular, didn’t say women should have children, wear high heels, make up, not work outside the home, or anything like that. He didn’t actually say women SHOULD do anything.

He expresses an idea-

The rejection of feminine qualities might very well be the undoing of our society.

These qualities exist in both men and women. The societies values apply to both sexes.
When aggressivity, strength, single-mindedness, self promotion, ambition, materialism are valued to the point of rejecting these qualities, that effects all the members of that collective, no matter what their gender.

I find myself wondering if it wouldn’t be easier to discuss this subject if we changed the terminology, from “feminine” to “Yin” ?

Would that help anyone move away from the superficial symbols of femininity -like the images from the fifties? It seems whenever I have seen this subject come up for discussion, there is always some that assume “a return to the fifties” type of ideal is being promoted. Instead of a re-valuation of the Yin , as a balancing factor to the Yang qualities, both on the scale of individual and collective.

But as this thread keeps on going on, the core truth remains.

There is NO loss of femininity in the USA. Once we all can agree on that, then we can move on.

originally posted by: amazing
But as this thread keeps on going on, the core truth remains.

There is NO loss of femininity in the USA. Once we all can agree on that, then we can move on.

I disagree.

Luckily, we don't all agree on everything, and we don't all have the same opinions, views and thoughts,
because then we'd have nothing to say to each other!

We could just get on moving on and ignore each other completely.

a reply to: Bluesma

Just curious, eyes too tired to go through entire thread, but has everyone agreed on a definition for "femininity" yet?

OXFORD is non-specific:

The quality of being female; womanliness

???

I don't think everyone has to agree upon what femininity is, though in trying to communicate to each other what we each see that as, we can have interesting exchange and perhaps perceive what different sorts of concepts are out there!

I like the way Wiki defined it-

Femininity (also called feminity, girlishness, womanliness or womanhood) is a set of attributes, behaviors, and roles generally associated with girls and women. Femininity is socially constructed, but made up of both socially-defined and biologically-created factors. This makes it distinct from the definition of the biological female sex, as both men and women can exhibit feminine traits. People who exhibit combination of both masculine and feminine characteristics in equal measure are considered to be androgynous.
Traits traditionally cited as feminine include muliebrity, gentleness, empathy, and sensitivity, though traits associated with femininity vary depending on location and context, and are influenced by a variety of social and cultural factors. In some non-English speaking cultures, certain concepts or inanimate objects are considered feminine. The counterpart to femininity is masculinity.

In talking about the cultural values in a specific society

This dimension focuses on how extent to which a society stress achievement or nurture. Masculinity is seen to be the trait which emphasizes ambition, acquisition of wealth, and differentiated gender roles. Femininity is seen to be the trait which stress caring and nurturing behaviors, sexuality equality, environmental awareness, and more fluid gender roles.

Hoftstede’s definitions:

“Masculinity stands for a society in which social gender roles are clearly distinct: Men are supposed to be assertive, tough, and focused on material success; women are supposed to be more modest, tender, and concerned with the quality of life.”
“Femininity stands for a society in which social gender roles overlap: Both men and women are supposed to be modest, tender, and concerned with the quality of life.”

From Hofstede (2001), Culture’s Consequences, 2nd ed. p 297.
Source- chart

There is this I found which does perhaps a better job of wording my conception:

Our gender-personalities are sets of personal responses
which were originally created in each of us by our upbringing.
If we were born female, we might have been enculturated
with the following admirable 'feminine' personality traits:
friendly, gracious, tactful, sensitive, caring, helpful, supporting.
If we were born male, we might have been enculturated
with the following admirable 'masculine' personality traits:
strong, independent, active, disciplined, objective, logical, practical.

When we name these specific personality characteristics,
we easily agree that such character-traits are learned rather than innate.

And if we dislike some of the personality-traits
that were socialized into us by our upbringing,
we can unlearn them when we become self-aware enough
to make decisions that could change our personalities.

www.tc.umn.edu...


In this online course in Communications, a lesson in effective business communication explains this:

A speaker needs to understand every facet of a culture before presenting his message in order to be properly prepared. In this lesson, you will learn how different cultures lean towards different acceptable behaviors in how they act. The difference between masculine and feminine cultures and how communication styles need to be adapted for each behavior will be discussed.

A masculine society has traits that are categorized as male, such as strength, dominance, assertiveness, and egotism. Feminine society is traditionally thought of as having conventional traits, such as being supportive, caring, and relationship oriented. Each type of society will respond differently, as an audience in the business world. A communicator needs to comprehend the different cultures and tailor his/her message in either a masculine or feminine way depending upon the audience.

Source

The link that repeatedly comes up, between things like clothing, or make up, is a subject that I find interesting.
From the viewpoint of an observer, these become symbols of feminine or masculine traits.

This article, written by a woman describing her own experience, explains a bit the connection between getting in touch with internal parts of yourself , and using things like clothes as an aid in that
www.dailymail.co.uk...

If you read it carefully, it focuses on the way people use such external aids not only to have an impact upon others, but to impact ones experience of self; ones awareness of their own internal qualities.

a reply to: Bluesma

These qualities exist in both men and women. The societies values apply to both sexes. When aggressivity, strength, single-mindedness, self promotion, ambition, materialism are valued to the point of rejecting these qualities, that effects all the members of that collective, no matter what their gender.

I think for the most part what you wrote above is the actual definition of women and femininity, I would say it describes a great majority of all women and those are the characteristics which most would apply to them. The other stuff is merely a hit or miss, it may or may not have to do anything with any particular gender. So its not a loss of femininity its just a revaluation on that which is obvious.

I find myself wondering if it wouldn’t be easier to discuss this subject if we changed the terminology, from “feminine” to “Yin” ?

That is for kids. In our day to day life's it has little to no meaning. And I suspect that in the future it will have even less of a meaning. Its a brave new world out there. Sooner or latter even women will have to come to terms with it, because the majority was created for and by them as well as men.

Would that help anyone move away from the superficial symbols of femininity -like the images from the fifties? It seems whenever I have seen this subject come up for discussion, there is always some that assume “a return to the fifties” type of ideal is being promoted. Instead of a re-valuation of the Yin , as a balancing factor to the Yang qualities, both on the scale of individual and collective.

I think people give to much thought to this. You either do or you dont. Anything else is merely a roundabout way of getting entrapped in nonsense. Look at it this way. If you have to create all these roundabout way to do something which you feel you must or to get people to do them. That just means you just dont care, and never did. Its all just a complicated way of playing ring around the rosie.

What I am saying is that the things which you are talking about have long passed on. And your just beating a dead horse. I see no actual prove of anything else.

a reply to: soficrow
Well there you go. I suppose the OXFORD dictionary cant wrong. Seems by definition that is all there is to it.

Definition of femininity in English:
noun
The quality of being female; womanliness: she celebrates her femininity by wearing makeup and high heels.

originally posted by: galadofwarthethird

I would say it describes a great majority of all women and those are the characteristics which most would apply to them. The other stuff is merely a hit or miss, it may or may not have to do anything with any particular gender.

Those terms I used (aggressivity, strength, single-mindedness, self promotion, ambition, materialism ) would be found in both genders, in a masculine oriented society.



I find myself wondering if it wouldn’t be easier to discuss this subject if we changed the terminology, from “feminine” to “Yin” ?

That is for kids. In our day to day life's it has little to no meaning. And I suspect that in the future it will have even less of a meaning. Its a brave new world out there. Sooner or latter even women will have to come to terms with it, because the majority was created for and by them as well as men.

Eastern philosophy has a long history, carried by adults. In latin languages, even non-animate objects are referred to as masculine or feminine- having nothing at all to do with gender.

If you have to create all these roundabout way to do something which you feel you must or to get people to do them. That just means you just don't care, and never did.

I disagree. When someone finds they feel unhappy, they can sometimes find that their cultural upbringing has conditioned them to feel they must be a certain way, but that way of being is oppressing parts of their self that they need or want to live and experience. It is not because they became aware of this that it wasn't true before that moment of awareness.