Poverty Mentality

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: learnatic


Hhhhmmmmm, you mean you had to be poor to think of these things? Sorry mate that sounds every bit like a sales pitch. I reckon I could spend as much time as you have reflecting on these things if I was rich and did'nt have to work.

I promise I have nothing to sell! But perhaps I had been fed some ideas by those who wanted me to buy?
It's not rare for people to have the idea that great sacrifices must be made in order to be financially successful- that one must work long hours and neglect their spouse, their children, and extended family, in order to "get ahead".

I work. I work six days a week, have burn scars all over my arms and hands, as well as joint inflammation in my shoulders and elbows because of my work. I still get up at 4:30 AM to write before I start work at 6, because I like to think. Call it a fault- whatever. I need time to think, and I make time for it.

Before this job, I had my own business, which I liked, but was working 12 hours a day, six days a week, and became unhappy because I didn't get enough time with my family. So I found something else which meant more time with my loved ones, and strangely enough, more money! I LOVE my work. It is fun, creative, fulfilling in many ways, and all the fatigue and burns mean nothing to me. I'm moving up fast because I love it. It's that simple. The jealous people complain that I don't need the money, so why am I there? My husband makes 7 times what my boss makes.

I am not doing it for the money. I am doing it out of love.Maybe that is why I can still find the energy to wake up at 4:30 and think? I dunno.

Do the rich ever think how much dedication, mental stamina and energy it takes to work 5 days a week for 40 years, particularly when we only ever have negative motivation to drive ourselves with.

Yes, quite often, from what I have seen. And they wonder why choose to work with negative motivation? Why do that if it doesn't arouse your passion and joy?

I am not insensitive to the realities of poverty and struggle, I mean only to point out that sometimes we get used to poverty and struggle and keep ourselves there when we don't have to. Sometimes we stick with suffering because it is familiar, we have grasped the value in it, and not in other types of experiences.

But my reflections are not new- Pride and Prejudice was written long ago, and still has some relevance today.

Wonderful, some good points there thank you. I guess some of us a so racked and incapacitated by self doubt, indicision and a lack of ideas that we remain condemed to modeocrity.

When I was a child I used to lay on my bed and count my money (pennies) and my mum said that I would be rish one day. Because I grew up in a poor household money has been very important to me all my life and I am very much a person who puts money away for a rainy day. Unfortnalely I have never been able to turn one doaller into two. I have only been able to save one dollar, then another, then another and then another.

But not to worry, perhaps I have been welathy in a previous life or perhaps I will be wealthy in a future life. Thank you for your perspective.

So many posters here with input that is so fantastic, I am enjoying them all, and want to comment on them all, but I have to get to work now! And honestly? I don't always want to do the whole thing about managing a thread as the OP-
I may have stimulated others to share their thoughts, but they don't need my input to shine. Sometimes I just want to sit back down in the bleachers and listen to you all.

Though I understand the desire for some acknowledgement- that's human too. Please, keep on sharing if you feel stirred to do so! I so enjoy admiring the view.

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: Jamie1

Where did I say the cure for poverty was more poverty?

We have X amount of resources... the more successful in society gather more of those resources... fewer have access.

That is the model we have followed since one human learned to beat others and take their stuff.

I simply posit that mutually sharing those resources would result in that small % of successful humans having less luxuries and a vast % having more... at the least clothing, shelter and enough to eat. Not really communism, per se, but certainly an artificial enforced-informed sharing.

I think, and models have shown, that if more had more to start, then society as a whole benefits... general IQ is increased with better nutrition/stability ...with an even greater benefit for the previous hoarders of commodities getting to keep their respective heads upon their shoulders.

Your belief is that resources is a zero sum game. It's not. Technology makes all the difference. 100 years ago 10x the workforce was required to produce food. Now we have more people and less people required to produce food.

Enforced sharing?

If it's enforced, it's not sharing. It's tyranny. I've never seen examples where that's worked. I have seen examples of tyranny vs. economic freedom. I choose freedom.

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: Baddogma
a reply to: Jamie1

Where did I say the cure for poverty was more poverty?

We have X amount of resources... the more successful in society gather more of those resources... fewer have access.

That is the model we have followed since one human learned to beat others and take their stuff.

I simply posit that mutually sharing those resources would result in that small % of successful humans having less luxuries and a vast % having more... at the least clothing, shelter and enough to eat. Not really communism, per se, but certainly an artificial enforced-informed sharing.

I think, and models have shown, that if more had more to start, then society as a whole benefits... general IQ is increased with better nutrition/stability ...with an even greater benefit for the previous hoarders of commodities getting to keep their respective heads upon their shoulders.

The fallacy in your thinking is that resources/wealthy is finite. It isn't. The entire pie grows, not just once person's slice. Bill Gates having $50 billion dollars does not mean he took $50 billion from everyone else.

Awesome point.

Yes, the goal is to grow the whole pie, one piece at a time.

More wealth benefits everybody.

nm

originally posted by: learnatic

originally posted by: Bluesma

Being poor allowed me to focus on the importance of love, relationship, fraternity with my fellow humans, and not distracted by the complexities and bondage of material ownership.

Hhhhmmmmm, you mean you had to be poor to think of these things? Sorry mate that sounds every bit like a sales pitch. I reckon I could spend as much time as you have reflecting on these things if I was rich and did'nt have to work.

Lets say it was an oversight,no worries.

Just because one is broke does not automatically mean as many try to infer, that one has not worked hard, made sacrifices and taken risks in an attempt to make some money so one can be free of govt hand outs for life.

A few years ago I invested $150k in a real estate deal and lost the lot. It took me about 30 years to save this amount of money out of my disposable income over the years. I'm talking about net income after tax either.

I am too old to ever replace this money from my disposable income. Greed or naieve and serves you right I hear the multiutdes exclaiming.

For me, It was a case of life is littered with chances not taken and I'm heading into retirement with out enough money and so I took a chance when a chance come along, not so much for me but so that at least my wife would not have to sell the house within a few months if something happend to me.

I'm not whinging, just stating facts and relating a story about taking risks is risky and not taking risks can be even risker in todays world.

There is more to lfe than what meets the eye and life is a complicated busienss. There is more to making money than what the rich would have us beleive.

These days I'm struggling to find the mental energy to get out of bed and go the Just Over Broke (JOB) I wonder if I can last unitl I turn 65?

Do the rich ever think how much dedication, mental stamina and energy it takes to work 5 days a week for 40 years, particularly when we only ever have negative motivation to drive ourselves with.

This is funny...

No the rich never think how much dedication, mental stamina and energy it takes to work 5 days a week for 40 years...

No one rich would ever attempt to use such a method to acquire wealth. What you engaged in was some weird version of Helsinki syndrome by which you (despite the very, very basic math) assuring you from day one of your job you'd never accumulate more than x, sided with your captors and did it anyway

So you saved 150k in a lifetime, then invested it all in one place in an area you didn't work in or likely (obviously) didn't study or understand?

It's your fault... look back in time, what did you do everyday after work? Have a 2nd job to rack it up? continue your education? I doubt it...

The rich however, know what it is to work 80-90 hrs a week for several years in order to leap ahead and not do the 40 years....

a reply to: Edumakated

True... and a new, logical and equatable economic model won't come from a blurb on the internet... but at the core we have haves and have nots... and people have self interest... adding to that self interest an awareness of mutual benefit is a tough nut to crack.

I'm passionately for individual freedom ...with the caveat that that freedom cannot come at others' expense... economically, anyway. We are only as free as our fellow humans.

Spreading the spoils of human industry to all might require some planning and enforcement... unfortunately. I have never heard of a successful captain of industry reaping spoils through their own efforts, exclusively. It entails a certain amount of exploitation.

If one is okay with that exploitation... then my notions hold no merit. I simply think feudalism can be improved upon.

Life is just different for all of us...and its certainly not fair at all. I have also been in a similar situatio nas yourself...seeing people not as smart or hardworking making more money and having what appears to be a better life..I would sometimes wonder what makes them so special or why am I never considered for a promotion when I have done A,B,C and they haven't.......They say the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, but it isn't always.....

Owning a home isn't everything its cracked up to be....neither is a having family...of course like I said its different for everyone so...an important lesson in life is worry about whazt you're doin and how to make your life how you want it...It is 100% pointless to worry about anyone else from a financial/employment standpoint....and this is a fact...It just stresses you out and doesn't get you anywhere closer to your goals....but i truly sympathize with your stance...

While I cerainly do NOT want to try and persuade you from not creating your AI program..I always viewed AI as another way the rich will eventually increase profits and get rid of people....the self checkout lanes in supermarkets are a good example....If you make it, please esure humans are always needed in the loop...automation CAN = less jobs for people and I think thats what TPTB ultimately want from it....Something they can control without question...Just my end of work rant...happy 2015 everyone !!a reply to: johndeere2020

originally posted by: wyrmboy12
Life is just different for all of us...and its certainly not fair at all.

We all have different opportunities for education, work, friends, and family. Some people are born into wealth. Others poverty. Some people are given financial opportunities that others don't have. Some people are healthy. Some are sick.

But we all have the same opportunity to be happy.

Great thoughts, Bluesma.

I was just having a discussion with my Stepfather this Christmas about how I think that a sudden huge windfall like winning the lottery would really mess my world up.

After I turned forty a few years back (okay maybe five years ago...), I realized that I needed to accomplish something with my life, a sort of "what are you made of" type thought process. I have been told I should be an artist since I can remember, but I lacked enough confidence in my abilities to make that happen. So at forty, I decided I would be an artist. I have never worked so hard in my life, and that includes going to school while working and taking care of a family. But I LOVE what I do. I hurt after a ten hour day of leaning over painting and sculpting, but I have never been so happy. I am finally profitable and selling a considerable amount of art, and I can't tell you how satisfying it is to achieve at something I have worked so hard at. I just can't put a price on my experiences for the past few years.

So, what would all of that money in the form of a large windfall accomplish for me? I am at an age that I truly understand that it absolutely does not buy happiness or growth experiences. Granted, it does make your life easier. My husband has a great job, and we do not worry about bills. The security is very nice. I feel like money changes everything and nothing all at the same time. I mean really, how many pairs of shoes do I really need?

originally posted by: artnut
Great thoughts, Bluesma.

I was just having a discussion with my Stepfather this Christmas about how I think that a sudden huge windfall like winning the lottery would really mess my world up.

After I turned forty a few years back (okay maybe five years ago...), I realized that I needed to accomplish something with my life, a sort of "what are you made of" type thought process. I have been told I should be an artist since I can remember, but I lacked enough confidence in my abilities to make that happen. So at forty, I decided I would be an artist. I have never worked so hard in my life, and that includes going to school while working and taking care of a family. But I LOVE what I do. I hurt after a ten hour day of leaning over painting and sculpting, but I have never been so happy. I am finally profitable and selling a considerable amount of art, and I can't tell you how satisfying it is to achieve at something I have worked so hard at. I just can't put a price on my experiences for the past few years.

So, what would all of that money in the form of a large windfall accomplish for me? I am at an age that I truly understand that it absolutely does not buy happiness or growth experiences. Granted, it does make your life easier. My husband has a great job, and we do not worry about bills. The security is very nice. I feel like money changes everything and nothing all at the same time. I mean really, how many pairs of shoes do I really need?

How many shoes do others need?

a reply to: Jamie1

Not sure what you mean. Are you coming from a charity angle?

originally posted by: artnut
a reply to: Jamie1

Not sure what you mean. Are you coming from a charity angle?

Just posing the question. Questions control focus, and provide answers that we might not have considered before.

My belief is that money is a tool, an amplifier. If you want to do good, money will give you leverage to do even more good.

Just posing the question. Questions control focus, and provide answers that we might not have considered before.

My belief is that money is a tool, an amplifier. If you want to do good, money will give you leverage to do even more good.

Jamie1. thank you for visiting this website and contribting to this forum. You are very unique. I think your real vocacation is to be life coach.

cheers

a reply to: Jamie1

Oh, I agree that money can be a great tool for doing good. As a matter of fact, donating both time and money is not just good for the soul, but I almost think there is a sort of moral obligation that comes with having wealth. It can help keep society's wheels greased, so to speak.

I have not volunteered in a while, but a few years ago I spent a lot of my time working with a local women and children's charity, in addition to giving back financially on a regular basis. I enjoyed this, but it did not nourish my soul the way art does. Only working on building my art business these past few years has shown me how to have peace in my life. I was caught up in the whole materialism thing for a while, especially since most of my family is fairly well off. But there is no peace to be found in chasing materialism, at least for me.

Unlike Bluesma, having a little money is what actually helped me see the important things in life. I spent too much time worrying about what I did not have to see the good in what I did have. My Mother was a single parent for many years, and we certainly did not have much. My Mother grew up in poverty and vowed to change that. She was not a happy person, and still isn't in a lot of ways, but she is still very motivated when it comes to making money. I don't know if I could have learned how to be any different in that environment.

Emm, this thread is extremely American centric, as is the website I suppose. The poster working in the Middle East was summarily ignored and lots of folks dont seem to
Understand that resources ARE limited _and that money is mainly a reflection of how limited resources are allocated.
In many if not most countries most wealth is controlled by privileged families in power, the rest of it you'll just have to duke it out with the other non privileged and non connected.
Life is not fair, and it's a lot 'not fairer' in countries where you are born the wrong color or religion or in the wrong village. The AI idea is kind of intriguing to me, although it does show a misunderstanding of what AI is. You cannot necessarily control AI nor can you control
It's use.

All this said, there's a lot to be said for thinking about your own attitudes to things, and yes, to rethinking attitudes. It doesn't mean you rethink attitudes just because your circumstance change and you want to deal with the cognitive dissonance in a convenient way though! (Although that is generally how humans operate)

The idea of poverty mentality is very shallow. If you follow how many super rich got that much money it's usually because they gambled big and won and had a whole heap of luck somewhere along the way. One bad move or bad luck, they could be set back for life. It's better to think about risk takers or not. Read about Richard Branson, or the original owner and founder of Ryanair. were they successful because they were risk takers , yes! Could they have lost everything because of this, yes! Could Richard Branson have died 20 years ago
Doing one of his stunts, very possibly.


Now for me, I don't have luxury of a partner whose earning big sums of money So I can indulge by dreams of writing freelance. I'm making good money now to give my kids a good education and gone. That's just going to have to be good enough for the moment.

originally posted by: ManInAsia

Now for me, I don't have luxury of a partner whose earning big sums of money So I can indulge by dreams of writing freelance. I'm making good money now to give my kids a good education and gone. That's just going to have to be good enough for the moment.

This thread was written quite a while ago, I don't know how much of my thinking has evolved from where I was at that point (feeling like I was discovering new perspectives).

My thoughts in response to this is- the point about risk taking is valid. What I thought I was "discovering" is that the motivation to take risks is rarely money. At least it wasn't for us, and many of the people we know. I do know some who took risks for money, and they failed. Money itself doesn't seem to be a big enough motivator to get you over the obstacles that can come up.

Second thought, a defensive reflection upon the comment of leaning on a spouse that makes lots of money-
He says he never would have taken the risks he did to get there if it wasn't for me. He was leaning on me at that time.
He was trusting my promise that if he fails or trips, I will take care of the kids. I will make sure they get food and education and all their needs for survival, without blaming him. I was taking responsibility for my encouragement to quit his job he was unhappy with, despite having nothing lined up behind it.

What if you had a spouse that was willing to be supportive in that way? That you could trust to hold up her end of the deal, be accountable, take on her role as co-creator of the family life in case of failure?

During the time he was in school, I proved I was capable of that. We had no income, I could not speak the language, I had to be creative in finding ways to feed the family, to teach the kids a second language at home, and keep them disciplined and focused on learning, even when I couldn't help them with homework myself.

I stayed supportive of him no matter what difficulties came of our decision (years in medical school while you have a family with three children and a foreign wife do come with lots of challenges for all).... so he learned he could trust me and focus entirely on doing something that made him happy.

I think now, what has evolved in my thinking is the importance of relationship- of mutual trust and respect, as a solid base from which to take off from each day, and that helps you feel secure enough to take risks out there.
I refuse the characterization of being a lazy pampered spouse riding off the success of another- we did it together.

I still work, even though I don't have to. I now have a job I love even more than when I wrote this- I work in a nursing home, and it feels like my true calling, that has deep meaning for me. The kids are all off living their own lives now, but this job pays more than any I have ever had, though that was not my motivation. (I actually never asked what the salary was when I accepted it, and have been pleasantly surprised).

Yes, I acknowledge, resources are limited. What I was examining though, is the motivations of those that end up having more of it- and from what I can see, it is rarely a result of simply wanting more of it. That is more often a side effect of wanting to follow your bliss in ways other than financial.
The concept that suffering and denying your drives towards happiness is the path to security might be a false idea.

originally posted by: artnut

Unlike Bluesma, having a little money is what actually helped me see the important things in life. I spent too much time worrying about what I did not have to see the good in what I did have. My Mother was a single parent for many years, and we certainly did not have much. My Mother grew up in poverty and vowed to change that. She was not a happy person, and still isn't in a lot of ways, but she is still very motivated when it comes to making money. I don't know if I could have learned how to be any different in that environment.

This is an important point- We all tend to assume others will have the same motivation we have. -And that is most often formed around what it was we were lacking early in life (as well as what our care takers felt they lacked).

For people who are born into rich families will often claim that money is not important, and we always scoff (correctly) "that is easy to say... when you have it!!"

Though I was born and raised in poverty, I didn't focus on money as the big thing lacked. Because when my parents abandoned us, I found I could always either make it (by going door to door, doing various jobs for people) or I could get the essentials for survival another way (I got real good at shoplifting food). So as far as I could see, with it or without it, there was always ways to survive and find shelter, and food.

What was lacking, in our case, was love. Emotional security, sense of belonging, and affection. So that is what I focused on as the big thing in life that is finite and difficult,( if not impossible for some) to get.

That might be the difference between people who had a loving caretaker, but lived in financial poverty, so have trouble taking their focus off of money as the most valuable thing to attain.

I still have trouble acknowledging when I have love- like I can't seem to totally believe it. I am terrible about keeping contact with people, because the belief that they probably don't want to see or speak with me is still deeply instilled in my psyche. Emotional poverty is a mind set/belief system that is difficult to change too!

originally posted by: rockintitz
a reply to: skunkape23

I agree. But there's always a point when you punch back.

I'm sure you have your line.

And what if I refused to punch back.
What if I have no conditions to my ethics and Love, no such line in the sand?
At what point would you stop punching me?
Would you punch me until your bones break?
Would you kill me?
Until sanity returns?

Love conquers all! *__-

originally posted by: BluesmaI still have trouble acknowledging when I have love-

True, unconditional Love is ALWAYS recognized by It's unconditional Virtues; Compassion, Empathy, Sympathy, Gratitude, Humility, Charity (charity is never taking more than your share of anything, ever!), Honesty, Happiness, Faith...
ALWAYS!

'Others' see it Shining in you, you see it Shining (reflected) in 'others'.

One, Humbly and Honestly, never considers himself to be Humble!