Roswell for Dummies. :)

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Here is what a downed Project Mogul balloon train looks like on the ground. This balloon train was recovered by Ben Thompson of Haskell, and Fred Hammond. As you can see in the following photo, the crash site of the downed balloon train does not fit the description of the debris field discovered on the Foster Ranch.

Mogul Balloon Train Crash Site

a reply to: skyeagle409

You can go to this link and on December 11, 1946, you will see the name; "Mogul"

^This^? That's from the journal transcripts of the field operations director of Mogul. That's not a newspaper article. Do you really think his journal is something that would be published in the papers and seen by the Russians in 1947?
Besides, many of the people actually working on the project didn't have a clue this was an experimental project to find out if it was possible to listen for Soviet nuclear testing. If the word Mogul was printed in the papers, it would have no meaning to anyone except those directly involved. That's why I specified:
"Can you link newspaper articles before July 1947 that state the Air Force was launching experimental balloons designed to listen for Russian Nuclear weapon testing? I've searched and can't find any."

The Air Force claimed that a Project Mogul balloon train #4 was launched on June 4, 1947, which was a full month before Brazel discovered the debris field on the Foster ranch. Brazel would have been in that field a number of times before the month of July and yet, he discovered the debris field in the first week of July.

Mac Brazel claimed he and his son found the wreckage on June 14. He went back a while later with his son and picked up the debris. He heard about a $3000 reward offered in newspapers for the recovery of a "flying disc" and shortly thereafter took the debris to the sheriff in early July. The sheriff notified the Air Force who gave it to Jesse Marcel.

Project Mogul balloons that were recovered by civilians never left a debris field as described by Brazel on the Foster ranch because rawin devices tend to stay intact as evident in these photos.

As with the BB gun "experiment", you're again comparing a normal landing of a radar target, to a crash landing as result of a bad storm, or even a normal landing with a subsequent storm destroying the target with heavy wind and rain.
The Roswell "object" crashed in an extremely remote area. The target in the photos (which by the way are all the same woman and radar target) is almost completely intact and probably fell within walking distance of the property.

In regard to the rawin debris in Ramey's office, that is not what was recovered from the Foster ranch. That rawin device was taken off the shelve and deliberately destroyed by military personnel and placed on the floor to get the press off the backs of the military. We can take a look at the affidavit of Colonel Thomas Dubose, one of the officers who posed with the debris.

I never commented on the photograph of the debris in the newspaper article. It could be the actual debris, it could be an old target removed from a shelf and destroyed to hide the real Mogul debris, who knows?

I might add that there were two crash sites.

That's a completely different part of this incident that I don't even think is worth mentioning. And with that, I go back to my original ad nauseum question that you are avoiding as everyone else has including Stanton Friedman:
"Other than an astronomical coincidence, I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation of why both balloon targets of the time and an alien spacecraft share the exact same construction methods."

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I know, right. It is possible the word "Mogul" was printed somewhere in 1946. I will defer to Mr. Plasm who is probably the least lazy of us. I am doing well..

Here's a summary: 266 pages that shows how Roswell was actually Mogul. In other words, a link that shoots himself in the foot.

Roger Waters and GE Smith?

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

Roger Waters and GE Smith?

Yep, GE Smith....

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

^This^? That's from the journal transcripts of the field operations director of Mogul. That's not a newspaper article. Do you really think his journal is something that would be published in the papers and seen by the Russians in 1947? [/qquote]

Project Mogul experiments were revealed to the public in newspapers and that its objective was the detection of nuclear explosions. What other country was working on a nuclear bomb at that time? The former Soviet Union.

Besides, many of the people actually working on the project didn't have a clue this was an experimental project to find out if it was possible to listen for Soviet nuclear testing. If the word Mogul was printed in the papers, it would have no meaning to anyone except those directly involved. That's why I specified:

The word; "Mogul", has been found in unclassified documents and letters. In other words, the name: Mogul, was not classified TOP SECRET, as skeptics have claimed.

I might add that Project Mogul balloon scientist have reported that they have tracked flying saucers and one of them was none other than Head of Project Mogul, Charles Moore.

"Other than an astronomical coincidence, I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation of why both balloon targets of the time and an alien spacecraft share the exact same construction methods."

Let's take a look at what has been developed over recent years.


NASA explores inflatable spacecraft technology

phys.org...


How Inflatable Spacecraft Will Work

science.howstuffworks.com...


US Military are using smart metals similar to those found at the Roswell Crash In 1947

www.ufos-aliens.co.uk...

As with the BB gun "experiment", you're again comparing a normal landing of a radar target, to a crash landing as result of a bad storm, or even a normal landing with a subsequent storm destroying the target with heavy wind and rain.

First of all, the experiment proved that no Mogul balloon train was responsible. You will recall the huge amount of tie lines observed at the crash site. In addition, there was a stipulation in place with the CAA that no Project Mogul balloon be launched on cloudy days with a cloud ceiling of 20,000 feet or lower, in other words, there would not have been a Mogul balloon flight at night during a storm or in cloudy conditions.

The Roswell "object" crashed in an extremely remote area.

There were two crash sites and the balloon records show that no Project Mogul balloon was launched on the day the Air Force claimed due to clouds.

The target in the photos (which by the way are all the same woman and radar target) is almost completely intact and probably fell within walking distance of the property

There are other photos as well that depicted recovered rawin devices, none of which were shredded in the manner as found on the Foster ranch..

edit on 27-7-2015 by skyeagle409 because: (no reason given)

It seems most peoples minds are made up(not necessarily a bad thing), but for those interested in Redfern's theories along with a huge back and forth by many Roswell specialist concerning the memory metal, you can check out this blog post.

a reply to: skyeagle409

First of all, the experiment proved that no Mogul balloon train was responsible. You will recall the huge amount of tie lines observed at the crash site. In addition, there was a stipulation in place with the CAA that no Project Mogul balloon be launched on cloudy days with a cloud ceiling of 20,000 feet or lower, in other words, there would not have been a Mogul balloon flight at night during a storm or in cloudy conditions.

This again was a controlled experiment where the balloons came crashing from only 15 feet and landed mostly intact and picked up. That in no way is a real world comparison to balloons and reflectors crashing from hundreds or possibly thousands of feet and being left in the open desert for 10 days- if you believe Brazels claim of June 14th, or worse for 30 days according to others. In that time period, balloon material would have shriveled up with some disintegrating in the sun and the reflector material would have been ripped and blown around in the wind and rain taking into account the violent electrical storms claimed by Brazel.

I finally found a YouTube clip of this "experiment"-
YouTube

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A look at the Mogul balloon records, there was no Project Mogul balloon train #4 launched on June 4, 1947, and the reason given is because the day on June 4, 1946 was cloudy and there was a stipulation that no Mogul balloons be launched if the cloud ceiling was 20,000 or below.

From Crary's diary: Highlighted in yellow and underlined in red is what Charles Moore says was likely Mogul flight #4 on June 4th. The comment: "had good luck on receiver on ground but poor on plane" indicates the testing procedures used on Mogul where receivers were placed on the ground and on a following B-17 flight. That doesn't sound like a small-time release of balloons, it sounds like an experimental test which is what Mogul was at the time.



Mogul flight #3 was the first in Alamogordo, with flights #1 and #2 being unsuccessful on the east coast. As you can see from Crary's diary entry, there wasn't much fanfare for flight #3 either on May 29th and no mention of picking up the sonabuoy equipment. It was one of the flights lost along with #2 and #4:



Mogul flight #4 was mentioned equally as #3 with little fanfare during those first flights. Flight #5 however, did have a more detailed account and used radiosonde transmitters instead of the radar/corner reflectors.

Besides Roswell being an awesome series with the best looking guys to boot back in the day when it started...

I had a dream about being in an underground facility years and years ago,in new mexico where i was the observer, in the white jacket, watching experiments, like... Goats manufactured to walk upright, And holding lights, honeywell, long strip lights which were everywhere. Anyways, interesting to say the least, really...

a reply to: skyeagle409

I might add that Project Mogul balloon scientist have reported that they have tracked flying saucers and one of them was none other than Head of Project Mogul, Charles Moore.

You have already pointed out a couple of times that Charles Moore saw UFOs during this period. How is that relevant? Does this somehow make the Roswell incident more of a fact? If anything, it shows Moore was open minded to UFOs and didn't have a debunkers agenda to quash the case. When he was approached many years later, he simply put together the amazing coincidence of the crash of this alien spacecraft and their balloon launches.

- The Roswell crash was reported in early July.
- One phase of their balloon launches from was from May 29th-July 7th.

- The object crashed outside of Roswell, NM.
- Their balloon launches were from Alamogordo, NM, 80 miles SW of the crash site.

- The debris field was found on the Foster ranch.
- Several of their launches ended up in the surrounding area of Roswell, NM. So many in fact, that they had to receive permission from the CAA to continue because: "balloons have been descending outside of the area [White Sands Proving Ground] in the vicinity of Roswell, New Mexico."
Also, flight #5 crashed 25 miles east of Roswell.

- The Roswell "spacecraft" was made up of small lightweight beams, foil-like material with dimensions no larger than 4 feet.
- The balloon radar/corner target reflectors were made up of small lightweight beams, foil-like material with dimensions no larger than 4 feet.

- The properties of the material were stronger than any weather balloon material they had seen before.
- Moore was directed at NYU to create a balloon train that could sustain high altitudes for long periods. Many types material were experimented with. Foil laminated to heavy duty paper, metalized paper on fabric, small balsa wood beams coated in glue, saran, polyethylene (Mylar), and neoprene were also tested for balloons.

- The size of the debris field was much larger than what had been seen previously.
- Weather balloons launched typically had 1 reflector. Moores team launched balloons with as many as 5 reflectors at times.

Looking at the amazing similarities, how could Moore not come to the conclusion that this was probably debris from one of their balloon launches? In fact, when the story come out in 1947, Moore and his colleagues said at the time this must have been one of their lost balloon trains they launched from Alamogordo.

If you completely remove Mogul #4 as a possible explanation, you still have to explain away the other coincidences of the exact time period with NYU launches, crashes in the same general area, and the construction of reflectors. Marcel and Brazel were said to try to reconstruct the debris as a kite. Radar reflectors were basically open box kites.

So I guess like everyone else, you ignore my question- Do you believe all of those points are just astronomical coincidences? I mean you have to in order to move on to the deathbed confessionals and so forth.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

You have already pointed out a couple of times that Charles Moore saw UFOs during this period. How is that relevant?

Yes! But not just Charles Moore tracked a saucers, but other balloon teams were tracking them as well. In fact, one saucer was seen heading toward the general area of the Foster ranch on a heading from southeast to northwest the night before Brazel discovered the debris field the next day. The layout of the debris field was also distributed southeast to northwest, as was the flight track of the saucer seen the night before.

Does this somehow make the Roswell incident more of a fact? If anything, it shows Moore was open minded to UFOs and didn't have a debunkers agenda to quash the case. When he was approached many years later, he simply put together the amazing coincidence of the crash of this alien spacecraft and their balloon launches.

It was already known that Mogul balloon train #4, the balloon trains that Charles Moore and the Air Force claimed was responsible for the Roswell incident, never occurred. In fact, when Charles Moore was initially asked if the wreckage was from one his balloons, he denied it was.

- The Roswell crash was reported in early July.
- One phase of their balloon launches from was from May 29th-July 7th.

- The object crashed outside of Roswell, NM.
- Their balloon launches were from Alamogordo, NM, 80 miles SW of the crash site.

- The debris field was found on the Foster ranch.
- Several of their launches ended up in the surrounding area of Roswell, NM. So many in fact, that they had to receive permission from the CAA to continue because: "balloons have been descending outside of the area [White Sands Proving Ground] in the vicinity of Roswell, New Mexico."
Also, flight #5 crashed 25 miles east of Roswell.

- The Roswell "spacecraft" was made up of small lightweight beams, foil-like material with dimensions no larger than 4 feet.
- The balloon radar/corner target reflectors were made up of small lightweight beams, foil-like material with dimensions no larger than 4 feet.

- The properties of the material were stronger than any weather balloon material they had seen before.
- Moore was directed at NYU to create a balloon train that could sustain high altitudes for long periods. Many types material were experimented with. Foil laminated to heavy duty paper, metalized paper on fabric, small balsa wood beams coated in glue, saran, polyethylene (Mylar), and neoprene were also tested for balloons.

- The size of the debris field was much larger than what had been seen previously.
- Weather balloons launched typically had 1 reflector. Moores team launched balloons with as many as 5 reflectors at times.

Looking at the amazing similarities, how could Moore not come to the conclusion that this was probably debris from one of their balloon launches? In fact, when the story come out in 1947, Moore and his colleagues said at the time this must have been one of their lost balloon trains they launched from Alamogordo.

No Mogul balloon ever came near the Foster Ranch. In addition, there was no reason to cover-up a downed Mogul balloon since they were sometimes recovered by civilians for rewards. Of the recovered Mogul balloons by civilians, not one was ever confused as a downed flying saucer. Tin foil and balsa wood were familiar materials at the time and downed Mogul balloons do not fragment into small debris as was displayed in Ramey's office and I posted photos in the past of recovered rawin devices as proof.

If you completely remove Mogul #4 as a possible explanation, you still have to explain away the other coincidences of the exact time period with NYU launches, crashes in the same general area, and the construction of reflectors. Marcel and Brazel were said to try to reconstruct the debris as a kite. Radar reflectors were basically open box kites.

Marcel and Dubose, both of whom posed with the debris, have stated that material they posed with was not what was recovered on the Foster ranch. Dubose indicated the debris was taken off the shelf and destroyed by military personnel and placed in Ramey's office in order to get the press off their backs.

[qu9ote]So I guess like everyone else, you ignore my question- Do you believe all of those points are just astronomical coincidences? I mean you have to in order to move on to the deathbed confessionals and so forth.


No. Once again, not one Mogul balloon came near the Foster ranch, and Charles Moore and the Air Force were aware of that fact, and why the Air Force choose Mogul balloon train #4, but records show that balloon was never launched, which effectively leaves the Air Force without any balloons to explain the incident.

I might add that during the time frame of the Roswell incident, the Air Force encountered flying saucers over Muroc AFB and Rogers Dry Lake in California. In other words, flying saucers were seen over the Pacific Southwest , before, during, and after the Roswell incident.

I might add that two crash sites were discovered in regard to the Roswell incident, not one.

a reply to: skyeagle409

Of the recovered Mogul balloons by civilians, not one was ever confused as a downed flying saucer. Tin foil and balsa wood were familiar materials at the time a

This wasn't even a Mogul balloon and was pretty much still intact but left people scratching heads.




Page 2 of the thread. Click here

Sure the materials were familiar but it didn't stop the confusion at the time (3 years after Roswell)

a reply to: mirageman

The military was responsible for convincing people that a weather balloon was responsible for the Roswell incident. However, the Air Force threw out its 47-year weather balloon cover story and substituted a Mogul balloon flight #4 that never was, as Mogul balloon records clearly show, was cancelled due to clouds on June 4, 1947, which was in keeping with the stipulation with the CAA, now the FAA, that no Mogul balloons be launched on cloudy days. Records also show that a Mogul balloon flight was cancelled on June 3, 1947, due to clouds.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

- Many types material were experimented with. Foil laminated to heavy duty paper, metalized paper on fabric, small balsa wood beams coated in glue, saran, polyethylene (Mylar), and neoprene were also tested for balloons.

What was finally used? Do you think it matches up with this description from here

Tadolini, in an affidavit for the Fund for UFO Research described it this way. "What Bill showed us was a piece of what I still think of as fabric. It was something like aluminum foil, something like satin, something like well-tanned leather in its toughness, yet it was not precisely like any one of those materials. While I do not recall this with certainty, I think the fabric measured about four by eight or ten inches. … Bill passed it around and we all felt of it. I did a lot of sewing, so the feel of it made a great impression on me. It felt like no fabric I have ever touched before or since. It was very silky or satiny, with the same texture on both sides. Yet when I crumpled it in my hands, the feel was like that you notice when you crumple a leather glove in your hand. When it was released, it sprang back into its original shape, quickly flattening out with no wrinkles. I did this several times, as did the others."

Seems odd that down through the years, no one has provided a duplicate of this material for one of the Roswell witnesses to confirm as being the same.

Well.
The combination of
1) well documented repeated government lying about the story
2) air base personell admitting to news media that it was a flying saucer
(professional air force employees can't identify a crashed ballon??)
3) lots of witness reports, including death bed confessions
4) threats to local people
5) the paper in Marcels own hand (in the famous photo) saying it was not man made
.. the list goes on and on


It was clearly not something ordinary.

a reply to: tjocksteffe

The combination of
1) well documented repeated government lying about the story
2) air base personell admitting to news media that it was a flying saucer
(professional air force employees can't identify a crashed ballon??)
3) lots of witness reports, including death bed confessions
4) threats to local people
5) the paper in Marcels own hand (in the famous photo) saying it was not man made
.. the list goes on and on

Yes indeed! And, the Air Force would not have concocted a flying saucer story over a weather balloon nor even a Project Mogul balloon train, which I might add, were sometimes recovered by civilians for rewards and yet, the Air Force managed to convince a number of people that Project Mogul was highly classified when in fact, Project Mogul balloons were no more classified than a typical weather balloon.

originally posted by: tjocksteffe
Well.
The combination of
1) well documented repeated government lying about the story
2) air base personell admitting to news media that it was a flying saucer
(professional air force employees can't identify a crashed ballon??)

They primary witness Jesse Marcel apparently contradicted himself. He was asked if the debris he was pictured with was the actual debris. One time he said it was and one time he said it wasn't. No matter which version is true, he's giving us an untrue version of events in half those cases.

In The Roswell Incident, Marcel is quoted as saying,

Just after we got to Carswell, Fort Worth, we were told to bring some of this stuff up to the general’s office - that he wanted to take a look at it. We did this and spread it out on the floor on some brown paper. What we had was only a very small portion of the debris there was a whole lot more. There was half a B-29-ful outside. General Ramey allowed some members of the press in to take a picture of this stuff. They took one picture of me on the floor holding up some of the less-interesting metallic debris. The press was allowed to photograph this, but were not allowed far enough into the room to touch it. The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo. (Berlitz and Moore 75).

Well if you don't believe him when he says "The stuff in that one photo was pieces of the actual stuff we had found. It was not a staged photo." then you're calling him a liar and your key witness story doesn't support your case.

If you do believe him, what he is saying is that he doesn't think what's in the photo is from Earth, so then I would ask why you would find such a claim credible as it looks quite earthly to me, in fact it looks precisely like a radar target. Or you can try to pick and choose which of his statements to believe and which to discard on an arbitrary basis, and say you believe him the other time when he said the debris was switched but you don't believe him this time when he said it wasn't. Then I'd accuse you of applying arbitrary standards to what evidence you will accept.

Even if Marcel couldn't recognize the debris as a radar target, Newton could and he didn't think the pink symbols on the balsa wood were alien writing:

When Newton had confirmed the debris came from a radar reflector, Jesse (assuming no switch had taken place) must have been horrified. Up to this point, he was sure what he had found was actually one of the "crashed discs" he had read about. Newton clearly states in his affidavit:

"While I was examining the debris, MAJOR MARCEL (My emphasis) was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were alien writings. There were figures on the sticks lavender or pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no rhyme or reason. He did not convince me these were alien writings. (HQ USAF Attachment 30)"

It was clearly not something ordinary.

It wasn't something within their experience. They didn't have experience with Mogul balloon trains. When they said it wasn't a weather balloon, they were right. The Mogul balloon trains were far larger than an ordinary weather balloon.

a reply to: Arbitrageur

They primary witness Jesse Marcel apparently contradicted himself. He was asked if the debris he was pictured with was the actual debris. One time he said it was and one time he said it wasn't. No matter which version is true, he's giving us an untrue version of events in half those cases.

Marcel did not claim that he posed with the actual debris in Ramey's office. The claim Marcel posed with the actual debris was made by William Moore and Jaime Shandera,

Johnny Mann, and Jesse Marcel

Reporter Johnny Mann accompanied Marcel to Roswell in 1980 to interview him about the UFO crash. Mann found the picture of Marcel posed by the weather balloon and told him, "Jess, I gotta tell you. This looks like a weather balloon." According to Mann, Marcel said, "That's not the stuff I found on the ranch." In other words, the only ones to report that Marcel was photographed with the "real" debris was Moore and Shandera

webcache.googleusercontent.com...:C8y7jmQhWWgJ:www.roswellfiles.com/storytellers/RandleAndJeffrey.htm+marcel+johnny+mann+roswell&cd =1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

General Thomas Dubose confirmed that the debris that He, and Marcel posed with, was planted in order to get the press off of their backs.

AFFIDAVIT

(1) My name is Thomas Jefferson Dubose

(2) My address is: XXXXXXXXXX

(3) I retired from the U.S. Air force in 1959 with the rank of Brigadier General.

(4) In July 1947, I was stationed at Fort Worth Army Air Field [later Carswell Air Force Base] in Fort Worth, Texas. I served as Chief of Staff to Major General Roger Ramey, Commander, Eight Air Force. I had the rank of Colonel.

(5) In early July, I received a phone call from Maj. Gen. Clements McMullen, Deputy Commander, Strategic Air Command. He asked what we knew about the object which had been recovered outside Roswell, New Mexico, as reported in the press. I called Col. William Blanchard, Commander of the Roswell Army Air Field and directed him to send the material in a sealed container to me at Fort Worth. I so informed Maj. Gen. McMullen.

(6) After the plane from Roswell arrived with the material, I asked the Base Commander, Col. Al Clark, to take possession of the material and to personally transport it in a B-26 to Maj. Gen. McMullen in Washington, D.C. I notified Maj. Gen. McMullen, and he told me he would send the material by personal courier on his plane to Benjamin Chidlaw, Commanding General of the Air Material Command at Wright Field [later Wright Patterson AFB]. The entire operation was conducted under the strictest secrecy.

(7) The material shown in the photographs taken in Maj. Gen. Ramey's office was a weather balloon. The weather balloon explanation for the material was a cover story to divert the attention of the press.

(8) I have not been paid or given anything of value to make this statement, which is the truth to the best of my recollection.

Signed: T. J. Dubose
Date: 9/16/91

Signature witnessed by:
Linda R. Split
Notary Public, State of Florida

roswellproof.homestead.com...

In some photos, you can even see the packaging in the background that covered the rawin device.

It wasn't something within their experience. They didn't have experience with Mogul balloon trains. When they said it wasn't a weather balloon, they were right. The Mogul balloon trains were far larger than an ordinary weather balloon.

On the contrary, Mogul balloons were well known to the military. In fact, it was the military that provided a pubic relations campaign on Project Mogul balloons in newspapers around the world.

Here is a photo of a downed balloon train.

Downed Balloon Train Photo

Here is a balloon train in flight that was revealed to the public

Balloon Train in Flight

Even experiments of Mogul balloons were revealed.

* New York Herald Tribune, July 13

28 Balloons Fail To Send Reports on Cosmic Rays
--Attain 20-Mile Altitude, but Equipment Does Not Give Nuclear Explosion Data

* Newark Evening News, July 14

Sky Experiment Apparatus Found
Flight in Stratosphere Fails to Show Nuclear Explosions Data

Photo of Balloon Train

The military was well aware of balloon rawin devices and had no trouble recognizing metal foil and balsa wood..

Photo of Rawin Device

Project Mogul balloons were sometimes recovered by civilians for rewards.

Mogul Balloon Recovery By Rancher Sid West

June 8.
Sun. Rancher, Sid West, found balloon train 25 mi south of High Rolls in mountains. Contacted him and made arragements to recover equipment Monday. Got all recordings of balloon flights. Took Treland, Mears, Yinton, Olsen to Alamogordo to catch train this pm

June 9 Mon.
Bill Godbee and Do" Reynolds went out to Sid West's ranch south of High Rolls and brought back recovered balloons- clock, 2 radlosondes. sonobuoy and microphone and lowerpart of dribbler. Bill Edmondso" cleaning up hanger and sorting out equipment of NYU. Worked today on balloon records (GR8) f rom north hanger. No definite signals obtained. Took inventory
____________________________________________________________________________

Mogul Balloon Equipment Stolen

Week of 30 June - 5 Julv '47 Alamogordo....worked on Tests 9 and 10, finishing all
Balloon tests? 7, 8, 9, and 10 off this week.

Test 7, slated for 1 July postponed until 2 July as equipment was not ready. 100 tanks Helium obtained from Amarillo Monday evening. Also radiosonde receivers set up by NYU personnel Konday but were not operable.

Test 7
at dawn on July 2 with pibal 1 hr first following with thodlite. Winds were very light and balloons up between A air base and mountains most of time. Included cluster of met balloons. Followed by C-54 for several hours finally landed mountains near road to Cloudcroft. Before gear could be recovered, most of it had been stolen.

_______________________________________________________________________

Policeman Recovers Mogul Balloon
New York Times, Oct 1, 1948 "Balloon Staggers Down to Brooklyn Tavern,

A MOGUL balloon "floated blithely over the rooftops of Flatbush . . .
causing general public excitement . . . before it came to rest
on top of a [Brooklyn] tavern." Recovered by policeman.

contrails.iit.edu...

Even Project Mogul balloon scientist reported tracking flying saucers over New Mexico.

HOW SCIENTISTS TRACKED A FLYING SAUCER
by Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, USN

In its January issue TRUE said that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary.

www.nicap.org...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Continue.

During the time frame of the Roswell incident, flying saucers were seen over Muroc AFB, CA., and Rogers Dry Lake.

MUROC AFB INCIDENT, CALIFORNIA
July 8, 1947

Series of sightings over MUROC AFB and Rogers Dry Lake, secret test base, California:

Morning: Two spherical or disc-like UFOs joined by a third object.
(XII)
Crew of technicians saw white-aluminum UFO with distinct oval outline descending, moving against wind,
(II).

Afternoon: Thin "metallic" UFO climbed, dove, oscillated over field, also seen by test pilot in vicinity.

(XII)
F-51 pilot watched a flat object "of light-reflecting nature" pass above his plane. No
known aircraft were in the area. (XII)


nuforc.org...

a reply to: Arbitrageur

It wasn't something within their experience. They didn't have experience with Mogul balloon trains.

Check again. It was the miiiary the revealed Project Mogul balloons, rawin devices and their experiments in newspapers around the country in July 1947. Check it out.

Photo of Balloon and Rawin Device 1

Photo of Balloon and Rawin Device 2

Photo of Balloon and Rawin Device 3

Photo of Balloon and Rawin Devices 4

The military couldn't have been confused by rawin debris because the military was using rawin devices on a regular basis.

Here is a letter confirming that Project Mogul balloon teams were tracking flying saucers over New Mexico.

Letter Confirms Flying Saucer Tracking


In addition, Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon, former commanding officer of Wright-Patterson AFB, confirms that the Roswell incident involved extraterrestrials. He was also the officer who overflew both Roswell crash sites.

Brig. Gen. Arthur E. Exon

Gen. Exon has been the highest ranking military officer to come out and say directly that Roswell was the crash of a spacecraft and that alien bodies were recovered.

What Roswell Was

(RUCU) (C&S, p. 191, 194)
"...They knew they had something new in their hands. The metal and material was unknown to anyone I talked to. Whatever they found, I never heard what the results were. A couple of guys thought it might be Russian, but the overall consensus was that the pieces were from space.

Everyone from the White House on down knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it. ...Roswell was the recovery of a craft from space."

roswellproof.homestead.com...

originally posted by: skyeagle409
a reply to: Arbitrageur

It wasn't something within their experience. They didn't have experience with Mogul balloon trains.

Check again. It was the miiiary the revealed Project Mogul balloons, rawin devices and their experiments in newspapers around the country in July 1947. Check it out.

Not showing Marcel knew anything about Mogul balloons.

a reply to: Ectoplasm8

"Other than an astronomical coincidence, I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation of why both balloon targets of the time and an alien spacecraft share the exact same construction methods."

We can take a look here.

How Inflatable Spacecraft Will Work

NASA and other space agencies are working on constructing a new breed of inflatable spacecraft made of lightweight materials. The amazing thing about these inflatable spacecraft is that they can be squeezed into small canisters only a fraction of their full size and then inflated once they arrive in space using a sophisticated deployment system that releases an inert gas to push out the walls of the inflatable material.

science.howstuffworks.com...


US Military are using smart metals similar to those found at the Roswell Crash In 1947

"Time is ripe for the insertion of smart structures and materials into space systems."

www.ufos-aliens.co.uk...


"Rubber Metal"

Popular Science, August 2004

"Smart skin" holds promise for morphing wings and wearable computers.

Terrible, horrible things can be done to this millimeters-thick patch of shimmering material crafted by chemists at NanoSonic in Blacksburg, Virginia. Twist it, stretch it double, fry it to 200°C, douse it with jet fuel the stuff survives. After the torment, it snaps like rubber back to its original shape, all the while conducting electricity like solid metal. "Any other material would lose its conductivity," says Jennifer Hoyt Lalli, NanoSonic's director of nanocomposites.

The abused substance is called Metal Rubber... The company's small office has been flooded with calls from Fortune 500 companies and government agencies eager to test Metal Rubber's use in everything from artificial muscles to smart clothes to shape-shifting airplane wings.

... its 12-inch-by-12-inch samples... take custom-built robots up to three days to create. ...Metal Rubber, a product of nanotechnology, must be fabricated molecule by molecule.

The manufacturing process, called electrostatic self-assembly, starts with two buckets of water-based solutions, one filled with positively charged metallic ions, the other with oppositely charged elastic polymers. The robot dips a charged substrate (glass, for example) alternately from one bucket to the next. The dipping slowly builds up tight, organized layers of molecules, bonded firmly by opposing charges. Afterward the substrate is removed, leaving a freestanding sheet of Metal Rubber....

roswellproof....tml...

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DISCOVER Magazine, Vol. 25 No. 04, April 2004

Glassy Metals
Harder, stronger, and better--the material of the future

The wispy metal strip in my hands is 8 inches long, 1 inch wide, and as thin as aluminum foil. "Try to tear it," says William Johnson, a materials science professor at Caltech in Pasadena. I pull first gently, but soon with all my might. No go.

"See if you can cut this," suggests Johnson's postgraduate assistant Jason Kang, handing me a mirror-bright piece of the same metal. It's an inch long, a quarter inch wide, and thinner than a dime. I bear down with a heavy-duty pair of wire cutters. The metal will not cut. I try again, squeezing with both hands until my fingers ache. Nothing.

A steel sphere dropped on a rigid plate of amorphous metal bounces like a rubber Super Ball. Conventional metals would dent as the crystals that compose them dislocate. But the plate--an alloy of zirconium, titanium, nickel, copper, and beryllium--has no crystals. Any atoms in the alloy that are displaced under impact quickly snap all the way back, enabling the sphere to continue bouncing with very little loss of energy.

It's all astounding, yet oddly familiar. In the typical science fiction film circa 1950, there's that scene in which scientists return from the just-landed flying saucer and tell the Army brass that no tool known to humankind can cut, burn, bend, or otherwise scar the hull. But the metal in front of me is decidedly terrestrial in origin

It is called metallic glass, or amorphous metal, and it appears to be nothing less than an entirely new class of material that can be used to build lighter, stronger versions of anything. ... it is two to three times the strength of conventional alloys...

... If upon solidifying the resulting metallic "button" is reflective like a mirror, he knows instantly that he has made a glass. The surface reflects for the same reason the surface of a liquid reflectsthe amorphous atoms form a smooth skin that bounces light uniformly.

.... Analysis of the thin ribbons hinted that a heavy hunk of material, thick enough to be formed into structural shapes, would be like nothing seen on Earth before. Conventional metals dent, tear, and rust because of defects known as grain boundaries and dislocations, in which the crystals are pushed out of alignment and provide entry points for oxidation. Amorphous metals have no crystals that could be affected by such imperfections and hence are springy, extremely strong, and corrosion-proof.

..."Amorphous metal is really more like a plastic than anything else," says... Johnson.... "What we really have here is a metal polymer."

...Strength is not its only virtue. It can also be formed like a plastic... Better yet, it can be readily made into a foam. The fact that amorphous metal is thick and like plastic when molten permits the formation of a foam panel that is 99 percent air but roughly 100 times stronger than polystyrene. A sandwich made of two thin sheets of amorphous metal flanking amorphous foam would be strong, light, insulating, fireproof... Such panels could form buildings, ship hulls, airplanes, and car bodies.

...On the military front, the Army is testing an armor-piercing bullet called a kinetic energy penetrator for use by ground-attack jets and armored vehicles, while the Navy evaluates lightweight amorphous-alloy fragmentation bombs.