Caliber Wars: What is the Truth?

originally posted by: Daedalus
a reply to: projectvxn

hmm...something i read once ..

there's, apparently, a school of thought that suggests that .22 is actually the best caliber to use, because you can hold more in a magazine, it has THE most manageable recoil of any round out there(i can actually attest to this. i'd compare the kick to what you'd get in a GBB airsoft gun), and that because of these two factors, you can put more rounds on target, faster....and of course, more holes, means more bleeding, which supposedly means "som' bitch goes down sooner"

i can't personally attest to the accuracy of this theory, as i've never had to gun a man down with a .22 pistol...but, in theory, it sounds more or less legit...

Actually, there's no legitimate school of thought that espouses the .22 as a defensive caliber. There have been satirical posts on firearm forums and a few gun-ignorant fools who've tried to make the claim but nobody who's actually knowledgeable would recommend the .22.

You're incorrect about magazine capacity. Almost all rimfire handguns have a 10-15 round capacity. There are a few exceptions like the Kel-Tec PMR-30 but the difficulty of double-stacking a rimmed cartridge in a magazine has made high-capacity .22 handguns very scarce.

The goal in a gun-fight is to stop the threat immediately... not put a bunch of holes in them and wait for them to bleed out. To stop a threat immediately, you need a central nervous system hit, vital organ damage, or damage to a structure necessary for mobility. The .22 lacks the penetration and wound channel necessary to consistently guarantee a stop. Can a .22 kill? Absolutely. Can it stop a threat consistently enough to be considered a valid self-defense caliber? Absolutely not.

a reply to: SonOfTheLawOfOne


So with the caveat that pistols are a horrible idea for a primary home defense weapon... yes the XD with a light or laser is a great secondary.

I'm always going to insist that pistols are a last ditch weapon only suitable for when you can't or shouldn't carry a rifle or a shotgun!

Plus pistol ammunition is disturbingly good at zipping through multiple layers of sheet rock. Statistically you're almost always going to be asleep at the start of an HD incident. It's also going to be dark and over one way or another in under a minute statistically. To me this is quite literally what 18 inch barreled pistol grip shotguns are designed for. Especially with a sidefolding or collapsible stock, and a tactical light with pulse function... and a laser if you want since cqc may necessitate odd shooting position.

I also agree very heartily with vx about shot placement, quick followup capabilities, good ammunition, and training until your conscious mind calls the plays while your lizard brain and body go for the end zone. Personally I stick to 9x19 9x18 makarov and 7.62x25 tokarev for combat pistols. However to my wife's unending annoyance vx has unwittingly talked me into adding .38 .357 .44 mag .45lc and .410 to my repertoire.

Speaking of which vx, ever wanted to own a semiautomatic 36 round capacity safe act legal revolver?

a reply to: Answer

I had to laugh and say my piece when I read this!

Long ago I read the two best descriptions of .40 cal ever.
1. .40 cal is 9mm with delusions of grandeur.
2. .40 cal is 9mm with a better press agent.

40 cals what you get when the FBI loses a shootout, massively overreacts and develops a round way too powerful for most agents to use effectively, so it steps to a down loaded version while eventually ending up with 40 cal.

a reply to: roguetechie

Speaking of which vx, ever wanted to own a semiautomatic 36 round capacity safe act legal revolver?

lol NO!

Is that one of the older revolver rifles that they were experimenting with in the late 1800s?

originally posted by: roguetechie


Plus pistol ammunition is disturbingly good at zipping through multiple layers of sheet rock. Statistically you're almost always going to be asleep at the start of an HD incident. It's also going to be dark and over one way or another in under a minute statistically. To me this is quite literally what 18 inch barreled pistol grip shotguns are designed for. Especially with a sidefolding or collapsible stock, and a tactical light with pulse function... and a laser if you want since cqc may necessitate odd shooting position.

Yuck... so much incorrect information in this post.

A shotgun with buckshot will penetrate just as many layers of sheet rock as a typical defensive handgun round, if not more. The only way to avoid penetration of interior walls is to use frangible ammunition and, even then, there's no guarantee. Shotguns and defensive handgun rounds will easily penetrate 3-5 interior walls unless wall studs are hit.

Secondly, a shotgun has to be aimed correctly. The spread of 12 gauge buckshot at "across the room" distance is no larger than a baseball so the old "if I get startled awake and I'm groggy, I want a shotgun" argument is a load of crap. This is also why a shotgun should not be fired with a pistol-grip only. Fire from the shoulder, with a stock.

Other than these huge and often repeated misconceptions, the shotgun with buckshot is a well-proven man stopper.

originally posted by: roguetechie
a reply to: Answer

I had to laugh and say my piece when I read this!

Long ago I read the two best descriptions of .40 cal ever.
1. .40 cal is 9mm with delusions of grandeur.
2. .40 cal is 9mm with a better press agent.

40 cals what you get when the FBI loses a shootout, massively overreacts and develops a round way too powerful for most agents to use effectively, so it steps to a down loaded version while eventually ending up with 40 cal.

10mm is a glorious caliber... there's a good reason the FBI's version was known as the "40 short and weak."

a reply to: Answer

Edit to add: I'm aware of what people SHOULD DO..... however my posts are specifically geared towards helping people avoid WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS 90% of the time when someone gets into firearms specifically for defense. Hence why I compare shotgun loads and fmj pistol loads etc ad nauseam.

I actually run a light bird load as the first round in my HD shotgun specifically because of what you stated.... and the HD specific low recoil 00 buck loads don't play wall zippie nearly as well as say a 9 fmj.

Also, for me specifically, I'm a freakishly instinctive shotgunner who started on plow handle Mossberg 20 gauges. Hell, I can fire buckshot out of a 20 or low recoil buck out of a 12 doing the behind the back pool shot stance and still torch off an entire tube center punching multiple targets fanned across a wide front at varying distances!

With all that said and bearing in mind I realistically would likely have to use 115 grain 9 or surplus polish tokarev ammo if I reach for my pistol..... is it any wonder I have the stated preference I do?

Also there's two other mitigating factors I didn't add in that color my choices.

1. I have a small living space: because of this I know against a smart and motivated opposition I'm getting at best 3 shots off before I'm having someone on top of me doing their best to kill me at contact range. (Training only to beat the stupid and unmotivated is folly) I train with my shotgun specifically as a melee weapon, for this exact reason! I'm reasonably confident that even at 3 or more to one odds I can kill the first two people that rush me and if necessary use basic infantry combat tactics to subdue or kill a few more even if it means using my shotgun to beat someone to death.

That might sound ugly and frightful to some but your average home invasion crew is 3 to 5 guys, deal with it or don't. Personally I choose to train for the worst to happen at the worst time with me at my worst. I figure if I can hack it when the deck is stacked against me I should be 5x5 in a less one sided confrontation.

2. Shotguns are cheap!

In an HD scenario and at HD RANGES you're at close to a 2:1 ratio cost wise between a shotgun you could trust your life to and a pistol you can trust your life to. That's important when you realize that assuming you eventually you have an incident where you actually use your HD weapon, that gun and all of it's accessories are gone for anywhere from 3 days to forever! The lesson here is decide your budget cut it in half now deduct anywhere from an additional $100-$300 from eachhalf and you now have your AACTUAL HD gun budget! (The $1-$300 is for an initial stock of ammo spares the exchanging of ONE piece of the furniture your shotgun comes with and MAYBE a mid grade light you got on screaming sale somewhere!)

This being said some department or another has ALWAYS just traded in a batch of 870's or Mossberg 500's! A little love elbow grease and usually a few bucks in new parts will net you a gun you can easily trust your life to at HD ranges! Plus if you buy 2 or even 3 at once they'll usually cut you a big enough discount to buy yourself a 20 pack of good cr123's on prime, and a few extra boxes of shells! ( plus usually if you're buying 2 or more at once you'll get at least one nice one without paying extra for hand select!

a reply to: Answer

Agreed on 10mm .... behold my BOOM STICK!!!!

I'M actually going to be experimenting with .38 casull shortly, I anticipate great fun shall be had and eyebrows may be singed!

VX,

No it's not something old. I'll give you a couple hints though.
1. It's legal for the same reason ksg is (when I said the part about NY I just meant that TECHNICALLY it doesn't violate the greater than 7 round single feed device limit.
2. My inspiration was 2 fold. First the open bolt revolver on improguns.de and then a ruger named Maurice!
3. I finally figured out what to do with my cz-26 kits haha! (I figure I'll do a pistol first and then a truly behemoth .45lc/410 or .44 mag version in carbine format.)

That should look suitably like something a time traveling KGB agent played by Arnold Schwarzenegger would carry when he lands his Gatling gun equipped steam punk Zeppelin in the middle of the Kansas territory to kidnap Wyatt Earp for a nefarious but unnamed mission to the future ........ Right?

Yes I'm aware that this is all totally insane lol.

a reply to: projectvxn

I know this an older thread, but I have a question for you and any others more knowledgeable on the subject.

I live in a small town of about 20,000 population, with only 3 LGS/ammo vendors. (excluding wal-mart, who has the best deals in town on FMJ range ammo... when they have anything in stock. Rem/UMC and Fed Champion @ .33 cents a round. )

Well, long story short, a Big 5 sporting goods store is closing down in late January. I went to go check out ammo, and ran across what i feel may be a pretty good deal. They have no FMJ, but many 50rd boxes of Fiocchi EMB (Expanding Mono-Block) in 9mm Luger at $28 dollars a box. From what I've read, this ammo is fairly hard to find in many areas nowadays.

What turned me off initially was the fact its only a 92 grain projectile, and not +P. After some research when i got home, i found out why:

The Expansion Mono-Block (EMB) bullet is a homogenous piece of a copper and bronze alloy that prevents the jacket and core from separating. During the swaging process, the EMB bullet is shaped in a way so that is can reach a desired level of expansion and penetration upon contact. Upon penetration, the expansion part of the bullet is roughly twice the diameter of the cartridge.

The EMB bullet and primer contain no lead, making this cartridge acceptable for use in indoor and outdoor ranges that prohibit lead projectiles.

Best pic i could find of cross-section, recovered mushroom, etc...


Seems to be a fairly similar design to Hydra-Shok.

So, buy em out or pass? Although not my first choice in a SD round, might be good to stock up on, to as it'd sure beat FMJ in a SHTF/WROL scenario.

I already unburdened them of all their remaining 25rd boxes of Fiocchi Extrema 124gr JHP , which uses the Hornady XTP projectile. And at a liquidation price I never thought I'd see again.

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

The EMB is another example of 9mm bullet technology that is effective against soft tissue targets.

Through obstacles like windshields and brick walls expansion is arrested and the bullet tends to collapse inward instead of expanding outward, retaining its shape. It's an interesting phenomenon when it comes to expanding ammunition. Lead free ammo like this tends to do this more consistently than lead core rounds.

Certainly nothing wrong with this particular projectile.

My favorite is .50BMG. It has plenty of stopping power. Especially when you use APIT.

It might be a bit overkill for apartment use though...

a reply to: Answer


Oh indeed... I do think 10mm itself has it's merits!

Matter of fact I've been investigating it's more powerful and esoteric sibling, the .40 super. It makes 10mm look like like .25 acp lol. I've also been very much looking into .38 casull which is basically a .460 rowland necked down to 9mm.

However I'm also looking at a few options based off of the .30 carbine case like the VBR-B crew built their original round off of.

a reply to: projectvxn

Yes, there are lots of extremely interesting new bullet technologies! Many of them are going to be coming down in price precipitously at some point in the near future, unless of course non economic factors intervene.

Soo I wanted to come back to this thread seeing how it was the jumping off point for my recent multi week cram session into ballistics and calibers. I've now safed the .45 and carry a CZ 9mm. I can shoot way better with the 9mm and I'm a big guy. 6' ish 200+ pounds and I was near surgical with my 1911 but that translates to even better accuracy and control with a 9mm.

The .40 and 10mm are both in the .45 wheel house. You can achieve 95% of the damage of these larger calibers with a 9mm why carry a bigger round? If for whatever reason you are only accurate with a 10mm then by all means carry a 10mm but I'd be willing to bet you shoot a 9mm better.

You can carry a .454 cassul and if your just shooting people in the leg or the butt you're not going to kill most of your targets. Conversely if you carry a .22 and manage to get a shot into the ocular cavity or the brain stem every time, your going to kill most of your targets.

Shot placement is all that matters at the end of the day. Caliber and round type only add to the chances that well placed shots will be fatal.

Take the case of Bella twin for example. World record GRIZZLY BEAR killed by a native woman out picking berries with ONE well place shot WITH A .22!!!! The Bella twin story seals the deal for me.. 9mm all day!

Well I just want to add no thread on ballistic performance is complete without bringing up last years newly introduced (R)adically (I)nvasive (P)rojectile



and



Even through obstructions this round appears to be able to do some devastating things.

But to reiterate, training training, and more training. This round is no good if you place it two feet to the right of your target during a shooting and it finally finds a stopping point two hundred feet away at a park where grandma is enjoying time with her little grand kids.

Eisting thread on that round specifically here

i also wanted to add some videos that shed some light on the topic for me

Get your coffee ready.









Mac from double tap is a PowerPoint cowboy lol! I love it.

He's aslo got a video on the ins and outs of the .40 and its cons if you wanna check that out.

a reply to: 8675309jenny

Ok, So what? we are not talking about a bowling ball and a ping pong ball. The mass is indistinguishable (except to the armchair warrior). ALL handgun rounds are bad. Most gunfights (over 80%) are stopped at 2-3 shots because the person says "oh crap, I've been shot". Not because of bullet weight. If you are going to debate the statistics, at least use classifications. I'll tell you what, no matter the caliber, 80% of those shot with a handgun round survive. 95% of those shot with a 12 gauge OO buck die. That's all anyone needs to know right there.

P.S. Still waiting on that armchair fogey that says "but I put a cross in the tip o my bullets like Charles Bronson and it will kill a thousands rhino's in one shot"!

a reply to: mindseye1609

Good info from someone who actually knows their stuff.

He's making the same points I've been making for years.

The majority of the caliber arguments on the internet are asinine.

a reply to: ArcAngel Arc,
. And that my friend is why if I hear a bump in the night I grab my shotgun! Just a warning to any one who likes to appropriate other peoples stuff... If you show up at my house I won't rack the slide as a warning nor will I give you a warning shot... Joe Biden and every other idiot who say these things are dangerous to everyone but the criminals.

a reply to: projectvxn

I know I'm a bit late but I just noticed this point. The 5.56 was adopted following research that demonstrated that most firefights are sorted out within 100m. It was decided that there was no point issuing every rifleman with a weapon thst is optimised for ranges out to 800m if most of his killing is done at 100m or less. The 5.56mm was shown to be very effective at killing at close to medium ranges and allowed 30% more ammunition for the same weight. It was easier to control on rapid and allowed for faster target aquisition between shots.

Adopting a round that is designed to wound rather than kill goes against the Geneva convention articles regarding weapons designed to create undue pain or suffering.

If anyone suggests to me that the 5.56 is designed to wound I would humbly suggest that they haven't seen too many wounds inflicted by the round. Trust me they kill well enough. If they still dont believe me I would gladly offer them the choice of standing at the 300m point on a range and allow me to demonstrate otherwise!

The idea that 5.56 is designed to wound is nased on Cold War teachings from people who didn't know why it was adopted but didn't want to look like they didn't know. It has since been taken at face value by many and passed on as fact.

[/rant]

Sorry for the derailment.