Caliber Wars: What is the Truth?

I would have to agree with you on most points, although personally I feel there is a difference in a larger caliber round, no matter the type of ammunition. A larger projectile is going to cause more damage than a smaller projectile, if both of those projectiles were to strike in an identical manner. Now would this actually make a huge difference in a firefight? Probably not. Theoretically there could be an instance where a smaller projectile hits a certain location, but causes only minimal damage, whereas a larger caliber striking the same location would have been enough for more damage on the enemy. But again, such a scenario would be relatively rare. Two bullets of different calibers, were they to hit in exactly the same place, are likely to both get the job done, or both fail. So in the vast majority of instances, against a human target at least, shot placement is key, as you mentioned. I mean you can achieve the same goal with a .22 pistol, and that small caliber can do much more damage than a .45 if the shot of the former is accurately placed, and the latter poorly placed. That is essentially what you were saying I believe.

I prefer .45 acp. I live in mass. So the most rounds I can carry is 10 per mag. (most of the time) So My EDC is a M&P 45c. Hornady JHP in the mag. (I believe anything smaller then a 4 inch barrel is silly) If there ever is a chance of the pop and drop its the 45 acp JHP.

I have a Para Warthog and its great...inside 20 feet..

Great thread. Shoot, shoot, train and shoot. Know how you shoot what gun and you'll be plugging spades outta aces with one of those SeaCamp 32s.

originally posted by: projectvxn


The fact is these projectiles aren't designed to stop they are designed to wound.

Awe man... you were doing great up until that statement.

There is no projectile that's designed to wound. They are all designed for certain performance parameters.

Expanding hollow-point projectiles were prohibited in combat by the Hague Convention of 1899 so that affects the type of projectiles used by the military.

The 5.56 was chosen primarily because it allows troops to carry nearly twice as much ammunition as a 7.62 and the lighter recoil is obviously beneficial. The caliber performs very well because of its high velocity; certain projectiles fragment upon impact and others tumble... both actions result in a larger wound channel. The current projectiles used by the military are designed for penetrating light body armor which, understandably, doesn't offer great performance on unarmed, shallow (read: skinny) combatants but the effects have still been acceptable despite the tales you hear from some folks in the military.

The simple fact is: there are certain groups within the military who can use whatever they want and if the 5.56 was failing as badly as the rumors suggest, these groups would have switched calibers years ago. Trust me, there are plenty of manufacturers who have been trying to convince SOCOM that they have a better option and field testing hasn't been convincing enough to force a wide-scale change.

a reply to: Answer

5.56mm ammunition is designed to cause hydrostatic shock, and to penetrate. XM855 and XM855A1 are standard loads used by the US Armed Forces specifically for those properties. While, like any ammunition, will kill a human being, its design does not make it a deadly projectile. Far more people are WOUNDED with 5.56mm ammunition than are killed by it because it doesn't cause the kind of damage to organs that would otherwise be seen by either larger, or expanding rounds.

The simple fact is: there are certain groups within the military who can use whatever they want and if the 5.56 was failing as badly as the rumors suggest, these groups would have switched calibers years ago.

Contracts are the reason these weapons and rounds have not been changed despite comparable penetration and superior performance of other rounds introduced into the market over the last 2 decades. They aren't rumors. These are facts from soldiers in the field that are, like always, seldom listened to.

a reply to: KnightLight

Stay Safe man.
Are you 11 Bang Bang??

I'm a Blackhawk crew chief in an Air Assault unit.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Answer

5.56mm ammunition is designed to cause hydrostatic shock, and to penetrate. XM855 and XM855A1 are standard loads used by the US Armed Forces specifically for those properties. While, like any ammunition, will kill a human being, its design does not make it a deadly projectile. Far more people are WOUNDED with 5.56mm ammunition than are killed by it because it doesn't cause the kind of damage to organs that would otherwise be seen by either larger, or expanding rounds.

The simple fact is: there are certain groups within the military who can use whatever they want and if the 5.56 was failing as badly as the rumors suggest, these groups would have switched calibers years ago.

Contracts are the reason these weapons and rounds have not been changed despite comparable penetration and superior performance of other rounds introduced into the market over the last 2 decades. They aren't rumors. These are facts from soldiers in the field that are, like always, seldom listened to.

Within the restrictions of the Hague Convention, the 5.56 works just fine. That was my point. Would an expanding or frangible round work better? Damn right it would but that's currently not an option for standard infantry issue.

Regarding contracts, that's only a part of the equation. The logistical nightmare of changing firearms/calibers is another part of the equation that is highly prohibitive.

I was referring to the special operations community specifically, who aren't as constrained by contracts and logistical problems. They still primarily use the 5.56 in an M4-based platform.

a reply to: Answer

When I was in Afghanistan this past year we saw more M110 SASS rifles and SCAR17s than M4 platforms.

a reply to: projectvxn

Lasers are a great idea, but not necessarily for handguns I have found. IR lasers on M4s are excellent. But I have found that most laser assemblies do not like the recoil forces on a handgun and won't tolerate it for very long.

Humm most I would agree with about the lazers, not all are mounted or created equally.. I have been very impressed with the Crimsontrace laser grip on my 1911.. About the only time I would re-zero was if I was going to make a major ammo change... But in my experience that is the case for all weapons..

The 1911 is used for night stand duty at the house and as a back up when hunting pigs at night.. different ammo does make a difference between POA and POI regardless of caliber...rifle, pistol, or cannon..

One needs to find the caliber and ammo that works best for them and their weapon in a given situation... As you said, "shot placement is everything".. Biggest problem with the 22lr is the ammo is rim fire and has been known for misfires/duds.. Not good if you only have a chance to make one shot before the hurt is upon you... 22lr premium ammo has gotten better .... with the price of the stuff it should have !

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: Answer

When I was in Afghanistan this past year we saw more M110 SASS rifles and SCAR17s than M4 platforms.

Some go-fast units have been using the SCAR-17 quite a bit in AFG but haven't made a full switch-over to SCAR-17's and 16's like was originally planned. SOCOM actually cancelled their order for 16's.

The 7.62 is obviously better for some missions but that doesn't discount the effectiveness of the 5.56. I'm a huge fan of both calibers.

a reply to: projectvxn

seems the army and the Marine Corps are wanting to and are going back to the .45.
this from July of this year.
Army Wants a Harder-Hitting Pistol
and this from Aug2012
A Historic Return for Marines to Colt Sidearms

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie
a reply to: projectvxn

seem the army and the Marine Corps are wanting to and are going back to the .45.
this from July of this year.
Army Wants a Harder-Hitting Pistol

A Historic Return for Marines to Colt Sidearms

Yes, because they're forced to use full metal jacket projectiles.

It's fairly silly anyway because the number of combat kills with sidearms is negligible.

a reply to: projectvxn

Great read, good job cutting through the BS as usual.

What's the best caliber? The one you have near and can use effectively.

In a CCW scenario, I highly doubt an active threat will stop long enough for you to go switch your 9 for the .45 you thought you were carrying that day. "Hey, timeout, man, that cool? I guess I left my 1911 in the truc" *BANG* You are now a chalk outline.

That said, it's just one of those timeless debates us fellow gun-nuts engage in to pass the time. It'll never be settled, much like blondes v brunettes v redheads.

Self Defense rounds though, a buddy of mine who is employed by the Bureau turned me on to the Federal HST .40 S&W 155 Grain a couple of years ago. Same ammo thats issued to ICE nowdays.



Every time. Need I say more?

a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

I have a very good reason for loving redheads as much as I do.

Federal HST is another one of those rounds that have employed new technologies to make rounds more effective. Federal HST also comes in .380, 9mm, .45, and some rifle calibers too.

originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: CloudsTasteMetallic

I have a very good reason for loving redheads as much as I do.

I think that's one thing we can all agree on. Gingers are the best.

A side note: the FBI is switching from 40s&w to 9mm...

Here's a link that all the 9mm haters should read. It validates the OP as well. It's from the FBI explaining the switch. 9mm is awesome.

· There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto

· Given contemporary bullet construction, LEO’s can field (with proper bullet selection) 9mm Lugers with all of the terminal performance potential of any other law enforcement pistol caliber with none of the disadvantages present with the “larger” calibers

Same stuff I've been saying for years when the caliber debate comes up.

a reply to: projectvxn

hmm...something i read once ..

there's, apparently, a school of thought that suggests that .22 is actually the best caliber to use, because you can hold more in a magazine, it has THE most manageable recoil of any round out there(i can actually attest to this. i'd compare the kick to what you'd get in a GBB airsoft gun), and that because of these two factors, you can put more rounds on target, faster....and of course, more holes, means more bleeding, which supposedly means "som' bitch goes down sooner"

i can't personally attest to the accuracy of this theory, as i've never had to gun a man down with a .22 pistol...but, in theory, it sounds more or less legit...

originally posted by: Answer
I think that's one thing we can all agree on. Gingers are the best.

blasphemy!

Gingers, much like lefties, have no soul...

a reply to: projectvxn

With the right ammo 9mm is the real deal but all in all 45acp is more powerful round. I like both I always say nothing smaller than 9mm for personal defense.

originally posted by: SubTruth
a reply to: projectvxn

With the right ammo 9mm is the real deal but all in all 45acp is more powerful round. I like both I always say nothing smaller than 9mm for personal defense.

But this discussion isn't really about caliber, but about projectile types and the importance of shot placement.

I rather like my S&W 500. Rest assured it does have stopping power. As handguns go, it's incredibly accurate. I set up a 100 yd target with it and stayed on paper (12" circle) the whole time. The only drawback is that for concealed carry, it would probably require a trench coat.

Que the train of people who totally miss the point