These disturbing Christian ‘educational’ cartoons may shock you

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Logarock

Then why didn't it just use the language "I enjoy listening to my parents"? Why was the phrasing "those who rule over me," used? The picture of the father is actually a double whammy, since it teaches the child to associate anyone who rules over them as a father figure. It can also disarm a child's defenses by providing a non-threatening example of someone who rules over them.

Well I see your point. Cant say I like the wording really.

Naturally you being a former catholic are going to see a problem with this right off. I have seen some control freak protestants myself that just love this passage...."Obey those that have rule over you" right out of the NT. Some believe that's a strong KJV sort of translation to support Devine Right of Kings and the English Church/State system. Which I have demonstrated disgust to myself.

What in the world guys? These cartoons disturb you? The first one sums up in one sentence a story in the Bible. The second one encourages listening to your teacher. The third one says families are happy when children obey their parents. The last one seems to me to be an actual joke children are capable of understanding -- showing the world continues to debate the parenting roles of mothers and fathers. About the added one that says it is easy to obey those who rule over me, is it not simply teaching that life is much easier when children obey their parents. It is every parent's job to rule the lives of their children, because they are children. When they are adults they can rule over their own lives and those of their children.

I was constantly in trouble growing up because I wouldn't listen or follow my mother's rules. Guess where that got me? My bedroom, weekend after weekend, grounded. Her rules were established to protect me and guide me, but as a young person they made little sense. As an adult, I am thankful.

I just honestly don't understand why so many of you are disturbed and upset over these very normal childhood lessons.

What did you expect me to say that it means to be watch out God is going to get me?
a reply to: Krazysh0t

a reply to: guitarplayer

From the site you posted:

''Wisdom is merely seeing life from God’s perspective and responding accordingly.''

''Until our hearts are in a right relationship with God, we are unable to have the “wisdom that comes from heaven” ''

''God of love is also a God of wrath inspires enough fear to help us stay away from evil (Romans 1:18; Proverbs 8:13). Sin is foolish; righteousness is wise. When we live righteously, we are on the path to wisdom'''

So in other words fear of god means literally fear, to be afraid of the punishment he'll give us if we sin.
Those who believe him and fear the punishment he can give them, are wise, all the others are fools.

But wisdom for christians is subjective, and has nothing to do the actual meaning of the word:
Wisdom (sophia) is the ability to think and act using knowledge, experience, understanding, common sense, and insight.

For me, true wisdom comes from experiencing life itself and studying nature, and can be practiced with philosophy
as philo-sophia, means literally, a friend of wisdom.
Man doesn't need to fear any god, or practice religion, in order to become wise.

According to the bible anyone who does not acknowledge that there is a God is in foolishness because as in Romans God has given man a witness through His creation. A fool is someone who does not acknowledge that God is ultimately in control. My basic premise was that fear of the Lord is a reverence and acknowledgement of who He is.
a reply to: Dr1Akula

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
No doubt and it was that factor that they focused on to sell their new form of slaveatitude .A simple correction to the problem would have been to give everyone a Classical Liberal Education . I think it's called the Trivium method and is well established . In fact I would bet that Bill Gates sends his kids to a school that has that curriculum . a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

While a classical liberal education has value, it is insufficient for today's needs. Philosophy, music, basic mathematics, and literature are good, but not enough. Children learning about technology, solid historical analysis, the scientific method AND major scientific realities, and so on is key too.

Private schools and even ivy leagues still have elements of the classical education, but trust me they also now teach all of the other items. They don't teach a 1700's rich person curriculum.

While I am certainly not endorsing the content of the few comic strips we have been shown

Are some people suggesting that the public school system in some places is any better?

originally posted by: peskyhumans
You don't want your kids to be obedient and listen to you? I wholeheartedly disagree with the liberal mindset that you need to reason with your kids over every punishment you give them, explaining why you don't want them to do something, every single time. As human beings we live in a social hierarchy. "Because I told you so" is a perfectly valid argument for a parent, and if your kids still don't listen after that, you are justified in spanking them, or giving them a time out, or confiscating their game console.

If I had kids, I would like them to be well behaved but I am going to be wrong on things at times and I certainly don't want them listening to me just because. I want them to be ruled by being rational, if what I am saying makes sense they should follow it and if they've come up with a better method they should follow that. Sometimes that means there's going to be conflict, and sometimes it means they're going to learn through experience that they were wrong. Both are valuable life lessons.

Not that you shouldn't explain some things some times, but as a parent you have authority and your kids need to be able to listen when you tell then "No!" with no further justification. To be honest, if a parent can't do this, they are a bad parent, IMO. Good parents have authority and discipline their children. I can say with certainty that because my parents disciplined me when I was a child, I was made a better person for it. I never did drugs, have never been arrested, and have a college education - thanks to my family.

My parents mostly didn't discipline me. I was spanked a few times or had my mouth washed out with soap but by the time I was 10 both of those had completely stopped. A couple of times my mom did things like take away the power cord for the TV or the computer but all that did was motivate me to goto the library, learn a little bit about electronics, and make my own power cords to keep hidden. I never did drugs, I don't even drink alcohol. I have never been arrested. I have a college education. None of which was a result of a high discipline atmosphere or because I was taught to be obedient. I was instead taught the opposite, respect authority at first but demand they earn continued respect. I find that most authority figures are unable to do that, and as such aren't worthy of respect. At the same time though I am always polite, respect and manners aren't the same thing. For example, I don't respect Barack Obama but I will always call him President Obama and not Mr. Obama or some other variant like 0bama, just as I will refer to W as President Bush.

The women's rights thing - also agree. The women's rights movement has long since lost focus. I agree women should have voting rights, they should be able to work jobs if they want to, but I still believe in traditional family where mom keeps the home and raises the kids while dad pays the bills and puts bread on the table.

This isn't economically possible. If women are able to work, they are going to work. That doubles the supply of labor which drives down wages. As a result women now have to work in order to provide enough income for a family.

"Obey"? Eerily reminiscent of a certain movie.





Unfortunately your quote didn't show, so - "This isn't economically possible. If women are able to work, they are going to work. That doubles the supply of labor which drives down wages. As a result women now have to work in order to provide enough income for a family." originally posted by: Aazadan

In particular, I have hear this quoted a lot. However, have not seen backing proof that this is the case for a shift in such as lower paying jobs, job losses throughout, etc. Care to share?

originally posted by: dreamingawake
Unfortunately your quote didn't show, so - "This isn't economically possible. If women are able to work, they are going to work. That doubles the supply of labor which drives down wages. As a result women now have to work in order to provide enough income for a family." originally posted by: Aazadan

In particular, I have hear this quoted a lot. However, have not seen backing proof that this is the case for a shift in such as lower paying jobs, job losses throughout, etc. Care to share?

It's not just lower paying jobs, it's all jobs. The higher the glass ceiling the more jobs that are effected. Women entering the workplace didn't suddenly double the number of consumers because they were consuming anyways. It did however double the supply of labor. That creates a situation where women wanting to work means that women have to work. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean we've traded the idea of one parent staying home to raise the kids for one of every member of a household going out and contributing labor and earning money.

originally posted by: peskyhumans
I admit the comics are dumb and could probably be better worded, but I agree with the message they are trying to convey.

You don't want your kids to be obedient and listen to you?

No and yes. No to the 'obedient' part and 'yes' to the 'listen' part.

Firstly it all depends on their age. Very young children aren't able (nor willing) to choose. So parents make their choices for them. But decent parents try to educate their children so they can make their own choices ASAP. The goal is to make them independent, to teach them to think for themselves and make their own decisions. They should also be taught to question authority - even mine.

Good parents explain to their children what the consequences of a decision might be and allow them to choose for themselves. Even when the child is in danger and you HAVE to decide for it to protect it, you should not tell it to obey "because you say so", instead you might appeal to trust: "For now, trust me and do as I say, I will explain later". And of couse, you WILL explain later, so the child learns that the credit it gives you by trusting you is not wasted idly and will trust you next time too.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the liberal mindset that you need to reason with your kids over every punishment you give them, explaining why you don't want them to do something, every single time.

You seem to be of a different species than mine. I don't want to punish my children. I want to love them. I want them to love me, I want them to be secure and happy. I want them to think for themselves. Punishment is what happens when I fail as a parent. I have punished my children sometimes and am ashamed of it. I failed.

As human beings we live in a social hierarchy. "Because I told you so" is a perfectly valid argument for a parent, and if your kids still don't listen after that, you are justified in spanking them, or giving them a time out, or confiscating their game console.

Spanking is out of the question and if I see you do it I will try to stop you. I hope others will too. You should be ashamed of yourself: you are far stronger than that child. Also, by nature, your child loves you and by spanking it you make it think that spanking is the answer to love.

Now, I'm the father of three. So, here I am on my high horse, telling you not to spank your children. Have I never spanked my children then? Yes, it happened a few times. I did not beat them, I slapped them. Still, it was wrong. I should not have done that.

I have explained to my children why it happened and they understand. They did not like it, nor did they agree with my reasoning, but they forgave me. Because it was an exception and because they understand that I'm fallible.
The social hierarchy you talk about is not created by outside force. It is created by free will. Leaders are leaders because people freely choose to be led, not because there is brute force involved. The force works from within, not from without.

I can say with certainty that because my parents disciplined me when I was a child, I was made a better person for it. I never did drugs, have never been arrested, and have a college education - thanks to my family.

Well, my children have never been arrested either, they are doing very good at school and they don't do drugs either. But I don't "discipline" them. What nonsense. They do that themselves and I taught them how to do that.

I still believe in traditional family where mom keeps the home and raises the kids while dad pays the bills and puts bread on the table.

Well, that's fine with me, as long as you also accept that that is not the only option, nor always the best. Sometimes it might be that Momma pays the bills and Poppa raises the children and does the housekeeping. Sometimes they share these responsibilities. Sometimes there might be two Poppas, two Mommas, a group of them or just a single parent. In all these cases and in many more a child can be raised succesfully and can be a happy kid - if society allows it.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: IShotMyLastMuse

LOL

I had not seen that 2nd one, damn. That is a cold statement eh?

And this is being taught to children...in 140 countries.

Damn.

I fail to see whats shocking about that?

Its a true statement you do reap what you sow. Its a sucky life lesson but one none the less.

Its just another way of saying you are responsible for your own actions and life choices.

Maybe if kids were taught that more often we would not have so many teenage school drop outs and delinquents?


You don't have to be a christian to know things you do in life have a habit of coming back and biting you in the arse. Thats just fact. And a sad fact but a important one I think to succeed in life.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Could there be a bigger elephant in the room ? Common Core may actually be but like so many ways we have of trying to teach our children we seem to be loosing the battle .This vid on Common Core is worth a listen to .Skip tp the 2 min. mark .

Honestly, as a certified teacher I can't understand all of the hysteria about common core...

The main reason for it was that there was far too much variance in education quality and standards across states and localities. Some states really did have horrible and low standards.

And thanks to common core now all states have horrible low standards and the USA is one of worst educated 1st world nations lol

Well that does go hand in hand with the times we live in . Where I grew up and was poorly educated (Prussian form) we were given so few options .It seemed that conforming was more important then the substance we were being forced to regurgitate year after year .It may not have been so bad but the fact of the matter was that it was a false history . Not only a false sense of history but a useless one ,unless you were going to become a teacher and continue to perpetuate the garbage .

I am not sure if you have heard of John Taylor Gatto but ,I learned more from him in one day then the many years I spent in school .He has a Wiki page en.wikipedia.org... When I landed on this vid ,I found myself having many dots connected to our history and understanding why our education was the way it is . a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Thank you for posting that!!!! Gatto is still kicking...I think he's in his 80s now.

When he retired, he wrote a letter to one of the big New York newspaper's editorial department.
It was titled: "I Quit, I Think". He said, very simply, "I can no longer teach. I can no longer hurt children to make my living."

To the OP: Yes, those "Christian" cartoons are wacky. So is Common Core. (As some others have noted)
The insanity of both cannot be overstated.

a reply to: TruthLover557
Then they've suckered you into it. They deliberately use wording that has multiple meanings.

"obedience always makes us happy"
"it is easy to obey those who rule over me"

Why not specify "to my parents"? They're grooming kids to obey authority in general: parents, government, priesthood. How can kids develop properly without questioning?

One of the main reasons I never joined the army was because you were not allowed to question authority .But as a child I learned that sometimes you just don't question your parent or other elders for that matter .Never got in trouble by being obedient even when it was the wrong decision to listen to the elder . That usually played out between the big people . a reply to: Ridhya

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Well that does go hand in hand with the times we live in . Where I grew up and was poorly educated (Prussian form) we were given so few options .It seemed that conforming was more important then the substance we were being forced to regurgitate year after year .It may not have been so bad but the fact of the matter was that it was a false history . Not only a false sense of history but a useless one ,unless you were going to become a teacher and continue to perpetuate the garbage .

I am not sure if you have heard of John Taylor Gatto but ,I learned more from him in one day then the many years I spent in school .He has a Wiki page en.wikipedia.org... When I landed on this vid ,I found myself having many dots connected to our history and understanding why our education was the way it is .

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Hey thanks for the video.

I guess one thing I do agree with, as a person who has both been an educator AND really attempted to learn about "real" history across the world, is that yes, we often are not told the things going on behind the scenes and especially things that cast our own countries or communities in a bad light. So at the very least, many schools and communities teach relatively whitewashed history. Unless one is an actual history student in college or later (where many professors will try to teach hardcore history) or really seeks the info out, most do not find out.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Could there be a bigger elephant in the room ? Common Core may actually be but like so many ways we have of trying to teach our children we seem to be loosing the battle .This vid on Common Core is worth a listen to .Skip tp the 2 min. mark .

Honestly, as a certified teacher I can't understand all of the hysteria about common core...

The main reason for it was that there was far too much variance in education quality and standards across states and localities. Some states really did have horrible and low standards.

And thanks to common core now all states have horrible low standards and the USA is one of worst educated 1st world nations lol

With all due respect, the common core was partly instituted to ADDRESS the very low standards AND the fact the US had ALREADY slipped behind in education. This was all true BEFORE common core was instituted. So your order of causation is incorrect.

Please explain why you believe it is bad, using valid psychological and pedagogical theory, not fear or links to random web sites.

The idea is to make sure that every state is teaching core standards across multiple domains (Science, language arts, math, history, etc), standards that are developed by experts in those fields, such that children are ensured a solid basic education are prepared for college or later studies. Not all places in the US had this before the common core. And, in some places like Tennessee, standards were way sub par.

My own child just started kindergarten. He is five. I spoke with the teacher two weeks ago about his progress. She said that before common core students had to master something like 40 site words by the end of the semester. Now it is 100. That is an increase, not a decrease, on a single topic of course.

I also think that a lot of people on here, while being well intentioned and concerned about the state of education in our country, don't really have formal training or professional experience in the field, and hence pronounce judgement on methodology without understanding it.

Here is a decent overview article on the standards. www.usnews.com...

Hmmm after fasting for forty days Jesus was tempted by Satan?

Well I think after that long of a fast, His Ketone Levels would have him on
quite a trip.
And he would be seeing pink elephants dancing with camels on the ocean.

Kinda like the seas departed so a band of nutjobs could cross. Never happened