Great Messianic Expectations.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

"Deluges" before my time. Over Germany during WWII.

Wnen I was a kid they dropped megatons of bombs on Vietnam…

An enormous hurricane, irresistible, went before the hero, stirred up the dust, caused the dust to settle, levelled high and low, filled the holes. It caused a rain of coals and flaming fires; the fire consumed men. It overturned tall trees by their trunks, reducing the forests to heaps, Earth put her hands on her heart and cried harrowingly; the Tigris was muddied, disturbed, cloudy, stirred up.

Tigres is in Iraq? We leveled that place. With "deluges".


Eidt: Besides a deluge of rain, volcanic ash or a storm of asteroids maybe, I have difficulty seeing another explanation. Are there any storms in Iraq that do that kind of thing? Oh, "Desert Storm".

a reply to: Logarock

But the Ninurta archetype of Sumeria was never directly associated with Kingship, that only developed in Babylonia through his assimilation by Marduk and it was from there the Hebrews developed their ideas, the Sumerian basis makes more sense to me in terms of Higher Spiritual forces preparing the way for a Divine King.

The Qumran Book of Giants/Gilgamesh is a curious work but demonstrates that Earthly rulers of Sumeria through their claimed Anunnaki descent were the basis for the Nephilim, but the problem is that the Hebrews as outsiders to that tradition were on the one hand declaring it as evil and on the other adapting all the archetypes!

In the Book of Giants Gilgamesh is not a ruler of evil spirits but rather one of the giants who eventually become spirits. A fuller version of this tradition is in the Book of the Watchers, in which the giants are forced after their physical destruction to roam the earth as evil
spirits—the sort that cause difficulties for ordinary people, much like those over whom Gilgamesh rules in Mesopotamian tradition.

The riding on the donkey as pointed out in the opening post was the sign of conquest for Marduk and Ninurta in that they reduced the status of Tiamat or Anzu to donkeys and rode upon them, it represented total ownage.

a reply to: intrptr

Yes Desert Storm that's the one, George Bush as Ninurta...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

See the main problem with articles like these, is that you can choose one of two possible outcomes. One, your right and the Bible was heavily influenced by Babylon, and added things from their mythology. Or, the Bible is right, and those other works borrowed heavily from the plans of God to better deceive mankind into thinking exactly that. See the main problem with people like you, is that you want God, but you don't want God's rules. So you have a choice. Either you give yourself to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, complete with rules of conduct, or you choose the other, because it's easier and doesn't require personal responsibility. I know you probably don't care (most secularists don't), but questioning the divinity of Christ is a cardinal sin, something that get's taken for granted here on ATS (and the internet in general). So, good luck with your premise, not that it will do you any good. A house built on lies cannot stand, there's a reason why Babylon fell.

a reply to: Kantzveldt
Well Kantz, it seems you've struck a nerve with this thread. S&F from me. Excellent work and read. I really appreciate your input on ATS. I've certainly learned some things from you, and for that, I'm grateful.

a reply to: Chronogoblin

The choice you suggest is illusory given the weight of modern day evidence, there really isn't one as far as truth is concerned, in principle there is nothing wrong with the Hebrews adapting religious archetypes from neighboring cultures, they were relatively late on the scene and the likes of the Sumerians had covered all bases previously, so it is within their right to adapt and reinterpret according to their own understandings.

It isn't a question of myself not caring, quite the opposite i really do, and nor do i have an aversion to rules, which is why i wrote the thread as it's the technicalities that intrigue me, my interest is in the proper functioning of religion, making it work according to the manual, i've no interest in breaking anything of value.

I'd never question the Divinity of Christ or anyone come to that either, the archetypes he represented in life were splendid, i just question can he really be expected to return as Ninurta!

a reply to: Klassified


Thanks, in my own way i am just trying to be useful, anyway i like Ninurta he's awesome, so it's not like i'm trying to spoil anything, just getting the facts straight.

a reply to: Logarock

Correct...

DID THE BIBLE “BORROW” FROM THE SUMERIANS?

IT IS CLAIMED: The biblical tales of Creation, of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, the Deluge, the Tower of Babel, were based on texts written down millennia earlier in Mesopotamia, especially by the Sumerians.

IN REALITY: This was the predominant view in biblical scholarship nearly 150 years ago, but the idea now has been abandoned. Despite this, it is still peddled by some writers, including Sitchin, who appear to be unaware of discoveries since.

SITCHIN FICTION

a reply to: Murgatroid


It hasn't been abandoned at all, what occurred with Sitchin was a parody interpretation of the suggestions by scholars was produced as a redirection, such that anyone who had a general interest would find themselves in a ridiculous place and the entire debate marginalized, one cannot allow oneself to be distracted by clowns.

Here's an interesting fact, while Ninurta was the God of flooding his wife Gula or Ninisina was the Goddess of levee's, sort of an inbuilt conflict in that relationship, but sort of makes sense, she was also a midwife so the breaking of the waters could relate to birthing.

Gula was given the lapis-lazuli measuring rod and measuring line for the accountancy of the levees and ditches belonging to the Emi-tummal by Enlil and Ninlil. They ordered her, their faithful caretaker, the wise and unfathomable, who cares unceasingly for them, to bring bread and beer in front of them. Ninisina,the exalted woman, the midwife of heaven and earth was given broad wisdom created by an august hand byEnlil and Ninlil

Hymn to Ninisina

Initially I thought these gods could be aliens being physical beings like us however when we examine Sumerian text we see that these goods are more like nature spirits. They are given offerings and they come down and feed off the scent released by these offerings. I interestingly Enlil is fond of the smell of roast lamb which reminds me of the offering Yahweh accepted whilst turning down Cains offering of flowers etc (is Enlil Aries, the god of war, the deity of the planet Mars?)

These nature spirits are like the devas in vedic culture and their divine weapons are the astras of vedic epics.
These weapons usually control some natural force such as lightning, fire, wind, water etc
A human may be given the use of such a weapon as for example Arjuna was given the Brahm-astra in the Mahabharata.

In terms of technology they are accessed via secret mantra in the vedas and are subtle weapons belong not to our world. Though their effects may be like weapons we are familiar with their technology is occult and not something known in our age or loka (realm) aside from the spiritually awakened.

I sent forth a raven and released it. The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back. It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me. Then I sent out everything in all directions and sacrificed a sheep. I offered incense in front of the mountain-ziggurat. Seven and seven cult vessels I put in place, and into the fire underneath I poured reeds, cedar, and myrtle. The gods smelled the savor, the gods smelled the sweet savor, and collected like flies over a sheep sacrifice. Just then Beletili arrived. She lifted up the large beads which Anu had made for his enjoyment: 'You gods, as surely as I shall not forget this lapis lazuli around my neck, may I be mindful of these days, and never forget them! The gods may come to the incense offering, but Enlil may not come to the incense offering, because without considering he brought about the Flood and consigned my people to annihilation.' Just then Enlil arrived. He saw the boat and became furious, he was filled with rage at the Igigi gods: 'Where did a living being escape? No man was to survive the annihilation!' Ninurta spoke to Valiant Enlil, saying: 'Who else but Ea could devise such a thing? It is Ea who knows every machination!'

www.chooseyourbeliefs.com...

a reply to: rowanflame


In general that's undoubtably correct, Deities of natural phenomena, in the case of Ninurta thunder and lightning and storms in general, and the way that comes crashing down can be metaphorically related to a mace or hammer, but there is also curious technological aspects woven into that, such as the mace of Ninurta acting as a drone, flying forth gathering information, capturing prisoners and blasting the enemy under it's own initiative, the Anzu bird also curious in those regards, and it's representations not always what one might expect;










All of those Anzu bird motifs in Lapis Lazuli.

The technology of the gods of the upper loka Vs the technology of the demons of the lower loka is explained well in this vid

originally posted by: Kantzveldt

The defeated cosmological powers of chaos and misrule were personified as 'donkeys' that the victor would ride upon in his triumph, this of course translated into an aspect of Hebraic Messianic expectation, the 'donkey of the big waters' getting a mention in the Bible. Generally such powers were understood as the preserve of Yahweh but the Son of Man is as a Son and apprentice to him and is taught in such powers, which is derivative of the cult of Asalluhi in his relationship to his Father Enki and also assimilated by the cult of Marduk, there were differing facets to the Messianic expectation.

OK, I'm a little freaked out. I'm a bit of a donkey, I spill a lot of water in my peyote and salvia augmented dreams, and I know what it is like to be broken and riden upon by mystical powers/archetype. After my NDE on the solstice lunar eclipse of 2010 I was 'riden' across the country to the Arizona desert where I underwent peyote initiation, guided by... something I know not what.

Good thing I have no political, finantial, or religious power whatsoever. Or maybe not. Dunno. All I know is I know nothing!

I've been away from ATS for a long time and my psychology has improved. Maybe I should leave again before you guys drive me crazy! Er, crazier.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I read a bit about this Anzu character since I am kind of unfamiliar with Sumerian, or Babylonian mythology(which apparently were in the same locations, just different times) and read a quick profile on it through Wikipedia(Unreliable maybe, notable, yes) and found it parallels quite interesting.

The one part of the bird being a servant of the chief sky God sounds very similar to the old Hebrew view of Satan being a servant for God. Also the fact that it part bird and human sound like a man with bird wings, which sound like an angel, or maybe not since it could be more bird then man anyways, since an angel would have more human features like the Gods that this bird is from. Not to mention that it likes to steal things and de-throne it creator or ruler.

Another biblical parallel that could be made is how the chief god sends a warrior to chase and slay the Demon is sort of similar to the story of the "War in Heaven", although albeit, the Babylonian version is about two super beings instead of armies clashing with their named famed heroes fighting each other.

Also the fact that the bird stole a said mythic item that would over power or establish rule over the other deities has a few little parallels as well. And how the mythic item were tablets, being brought to a mountain kind of do have a parallel with the story of Moses, however the difference was that they were made at the mountain and he was given the tablets that would be the laws of God.

You got two thirds of my star, since Satan stole one-third of mine, like he did with Eves virginity.

Lol. SnF.

a reply to: Specimen

One finds good representation of the khyung flying Demon in ancient Tibet, i think this is along similar lines to the Anzu bird except also given human/Demonic personification.






They sort of invented the hand-glider i guess without realizing.


a reply to: BlueMule

Well i can sympathize as i sometimes i feel i get all the donkey work of the Anunnaki...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Reminds me of how the Garuda is sort of presented as being a humanoid bird, although the creature is said to be more noble since it is the mount of Vishnu, and probably doesn't rebel against Vishnu kingdom.

Also, the way Anzu is being described as something of a reverse Griffon,(the head of a lion instead) reminds me of the so called beasts of Daniels visions, although not to sure as to how they relate other then how they are being presented or depicted.


Reminds me of the symbol of the house of Gryfinndor from Harry Potter.

Another parallel, which is kind of known is to how Anzu is a dragon in it own rite in the story. In china, the Chinese dragons are a mix of different animals in some case. The horns of a stag, the body of a serpent, claws of a eagle or any bird of prey, and the mane of a lion, and the power or authority of a god being the difference.

I've had a lot of time and thoughts about it.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Chronogoblin

The choice you suggest is illusory given the weight of modern day evidence, there really isn't one as far as truth is concerned, in principle there is nothing wrong with the Hebrews adapting religious archetypes from neighboring cultures, they were relatively late on the scene and the likes of the Sumerians had covered all bases previously, so it is within their right to adapt and reinterpret according to their own understandings.

I cant understand why you say the Hebrews were late to the scene. The Hebrew patriarch was from Ur. Hebrew history says that Abrahams father was an official in Nimrods administration. Abraham was told to move out of Ur and disregard the idols of his father and the Sumerians.

The entire and important foundation of the Hebrew people from the beginning was a statement of rejection of the Sumerian...Ur ect efforts to convolute the truth and the world. Early they became a nomadic tribe, very familiar with but in rejection of local deities and Sumerian interpretations.

Needless to say this was a constant struggle for them, for generations, and to which they finally lost.

But! One must study the Hebrew prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel to understand how this went down. And frankly they can be very hard books to understand if the foundations are not understood. You know? Like why was there so much apoplexy in Hebrew culture about the gods of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylon ect by their prophets? The Hebrews were the only culture that while "fornicating" with local gods and customs received so much flack from internal voices constantly reminding them of the original charter, as it were, their purpose as a nation that was to reject baal, Ishtar, ect and the allure of the great and small kingdoms around them.

As it came to be, the Hebrews become so engrossed in these ways that even the nations around them "blushed" at the corruption and level of pagan whoreing yet all the while and over generations with the voices of their prophets ringing in their ears to get back to a total rejection of baal, queen of heaven ect.

a reply to: Logarock

This was a good documentary i watched the other day with regards to attested origins of Israel;



An important point it makes is that before the Babylonian exile Israel was pretty much like previous Canaanite Kingdoms in that many idols of Yahweh's consort Asherah were found, but after the exile none.

The reason is that they had become seperated from their cultic places and traditions and a clean break was made were dependence was entirely on the written word of the prophetic books, it was written up to produce that effect and the synagogue tradition developed of identity through the written word, biblical narrative was all important to retain any sense of identity rather than ritual practise, of course they established identity also by distancing and differentiating themselves from their captors and neighbours.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Specimen

One finds good representation of the khyung flying Demon in ancient Tibet, i think this is along similar lines to the Anzu bird except also given human/Demonic personification.

They sort of invented the hand-glider i guess without realizing.

Thats actually the back of a garuda amulet.

a reply to: BlueMule

Well i can sympathize as i sometimes i feel i get all the donkey work of the Anunnaki...

a reply to: rowanflame


Yes that makes it's own case for being associate with the Khyung, i find the association of the flying man and the Dorje weapon in Tibetan culture intriguing, generally represented in metal.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

So basically, you like Christ, bu don't want to give up your pagan leanings. That's too bad. That's called 'having your cake, and eating it too.' You can't have it both ways. There is no 'middle ground,' you're either with Christ, or your not. Most people don't like that ideology, but that's the way it is.