Great Messianic Expectations.

What i'm hoping to do here is look at Biblical Apocalyptic tradition as it was sourced from the Babylonian state cult of Marduk, first appearing in the Book of Daniel, and further look at how that derived from the Sumerian cult of Ninurta, my main source being this excellent paper Ninurta and the Son of Man

This calls into question the appropriateness of using earlier mythological archetypes in the context of Messianic expectation.

I, Daniel, saw in my vision by night the four winds of heaven stirring up the great sea”

The “four winds of heaven” correspond exactly to four winds, created by Anu and delivered to his son Marduk in Enuma Elish

He created four winds, Anu begot these he filled his hands, (saying) “whirl these,my son!

The Son of Man ideology of Daniel is with regards to mighty events in the Heavens being reflected upon the Earth, were astrology and cosmological occurences are reflected in tumultuous socio-political events and transformations, were archetypal chaos is triumphed over.

“and four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.”

These monsters are, of course, with similarities to the enemies of Ninurta or of Marduk in Enuma Elish, which are traditionally numbered eleven . The last monster in Daniel’s vision has comparably eleven horns. That there are only four monsters in Daniel’s vision, is dictated by the political message of Daniel.

The Babylonians since the time of the Amorites had taken great liberties with Sumerian mythology, to the outrageous extent even of Marduk slaying Anu to claim sole supremacy of the Universe, he had also assimilated the cults of Enlil and Ninurta, thus many elements of Enuma Elish were formerly appropriate to Ninurta, and with Marduk having direct association with the King those former cosmological powers could be seen as potentially manifest within human person and thus Messianic context

The main enemy of Ninurta in Mesopotamian mythology is considered the eagle Anzu, which becames one with Ninurta, his symbol, after Ninurta has conquered him

On the second night I had a dream: I saw rising from the sea an eagle that had twelve feathered wings and three heads. I saw it spread its wings over the whole earth, and all the winds of heaven blew upon it, and the clouds were gathered around it

The understanding then that a singular person could overcome all the multitudes of the Earth and establish his own absolute rule was already formulated in Babylon, the Hebrews liked what they saw and developed their own expectations, adapting the Babylonian texts, and creating the potential job vacancy that awaited taking up.

In the Second Esdra Book the Son of Man rises from the Sea and then prepares for the battle ‘against multitudes’ on the mountain, thus resembling the demon Azag in the Sumerian Lugal-e hymn:

And I looked and saw that he carved out for himself a great mountain, and flew up on to it… I saw only how he sent forth from his mouth something like a stream of fire and the flaming breath and the great storm (ud-gal, one of Ninurta’s weapons), his “word” and fell on the onrushing multitude that was prepared to fight, and burned up all of them, so that suddenly nothing was seen of the innumerable multitude.

(Ninurta’s weapon šár-ùr “the Slayer of the Multitudes”)

Ninurta in the Lugal-e myth makes his “new creation” from the material of the subdued Azag and his stones. Thus the kingship of the antagonist ends up in the new creation

Established powers of an empirical basis were symbolized as 'mountains', these could not only be moved they could also be smashed into pieces and from the debris one's own order estsablished, or at least that was the way Ninurta had gone about things, also Inanna was no respecter of mountains.

The last of the beasts is different from all the beasts that preceded it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, when another horn appeared, a little one coming up among them; to make room for it,

A Neo-Assyrian mystical text mentions also the horns of the “dromedary”of Tiamat , which is not evidenced at all in the Epic, but certainly was part of the myth: “The dromedary is the ghost of Tiamat. Bel defeated her. Bel cut off her horns, clove her feet and docked her tail.” The same text mentions also a particular horn, which is somehow identified with Tiamat herself

The power involved was generally that of the storm and deluge, as in the days of Noah, the flood was seen as the primary example of a world changing event and that had been unleashed by Ninurta in the Atrahasis myth, to bring about the new age of Dynastic rule and civilization, that was always a clear dividing line for the Sumerians, the expecation was that this would again occur if necessary.

In some passages the Son of Man occurs as the divine judge, who comes at the end of days, riding on the clouds, and also in some cases in the context of a deluge, The last two cases are especially telling, because Ninurta himself is also “a great deluge,” and causes a flood in Atrahasis,with the victory over the forces of chaos Ninurta became the king of the universe,like the kerygmatic Christ.

The defeated cosmological powers of chaos and misrule were personified as 'donkeys' that the victor would ride upon in his triumph, this of course translated into an aspect of Hebraic Messianic expectation, the 'donkey of the big waters' getting a mention in the Bible. Generally such powers were understood as the preserve of Yahweh but the Son of Man is as a Son and apprentice to him and is taught in such powers, which is derivative of the cult of Asalluhi in his relationship to his Father Enki and also assimilated by the cult of Marduk, there were differing facets to the Messianic expectation.

Ninurta’s chariot is drawn by the ghost of Anzu, and Marduk rides, one may infer, on the ghost of Tiamat who is named logographically “donkey of the sea” At Mari the donkey also has symbolic value as the riding animal of the victorious king and symbol of his legitimate kingship

In Sumero-Akkadian lexical texts, the Thunderbird Anzu is said to be imeru šamê “Donkey of Heaven.”

You trampled the sea with your horses, and with the donkey of the big waters

In the second part i shall outline the Sumerian cult of Ninurta in it's proper context as that formed the basis of all this later speculation

Ninurta was always counted amongst the seven greatest Annunaki and is arguably the most complex of them in that he was not only the personification of the warrior but also of the principle of healing and was also the patron of farming, associated with Hoe.

He was the Divine son that represented the interests of his Father Enlil, the patron Deity of Nippur or Nibru, which as Dur-An-Ki was the central place that linked Heaven the Earth and the Underworld in terms of the E-Kur Mountain

They have appealed to you, because of your father; son of Enlil, Lord, because of your superior strength they are looking to you here; since you are strong, my master,they are calling for your help, saying, Ninurta, that not a single warrior counts except for you

The god’s word is an independent and fixed entity, expressing his irrevocable decision. The god’s word is also a weapon, comparable to an arrow or deluge. Once released from the bow, it travels inexorably to its designated target.

Ninurta was a healer in the sense that he took direct assertive action against any problematic cause of disease or malaise, his wife Nin-Nibru was generally the healing Goddess Bau who had a Temple at Nippur, with alternative forms such as Gula or Nin-Isin, both were associated with the pure powers of Sirius, the Goddess in terms of supportive and curative aid to the victim.

In an inscription of Šamši-Adad , Ninurta is given the epithet “victorious son whose position is resplendent in the bright starry heaven.”

Ninurta was associated with several stars, among them the star called “arrow" This star is the principal star of Canis Maior , Sirius.

The “deluge bow,” which already occurs in Sumerian mythology as the weapon of Ninurta, is of course nothing but the rainbow, which is given as a name of Ištar

“Arrow-star by name, making battle resound , making everything perfect”

Canis Major also had early association with the spider Goddess Uttu as a plant Goddess and the healing associations in terms of remedies would relate to this, in the star Sirius the Sumerians saw the balance between the powers of darkness and light, between death and life, thus Ninurta represented the power of light at it's most brilliant.

In the eleventh month Sirius stands exactly in the south at sunset and in the sixth month it stands there at sunrise. This recalls Ninurta’s epithets maintainer of symmetry

O greatest Ninurta, warrior god, vanguard of the Anunna-gods, commander of the Igigi-gods, judge of the universe, who oversees (its) equilibrium, who makes bright darkness and illumines gloom, who renders verdicts for teeming mankind!

The planetary aspect of Ninurta was Mercury, sometimes in conjugation with Saturn, he was the earliest manifestation of healing association with that planet and also the power of the spoken word that cannot be altered, the Babylonians replaced these aspects with the cult of Nebu as Mercury.

According to the holistic world view of the ancient Mesopotamians, responsibility for the sicknesses of the body was assigned to various malevolent demons.

These were also Ninurta’s mythological enemies, Ninurta was a god of healing also on the basis of his marital relations with the goddess Gula.

She had the theriomorphic form of a dog and was called azu gallatu“ the great physician”

Ninurta’s status as the god of healing was corroborated with the emergence of the first dynasty of Isin whose kings married Ninurta to their city-goddess Ninisina

Of course the Deluge itself should be understood in terms of cleansing and healing of the Earth, the dramatic cure-all, as in Egypt the inundation as a basis for agriculture was celebrated in the cult of Ninurta, at the height of the flood his effigy would be fully immersed in the waters, the first seed was always planted in his name in the sense of continuance of life, so the actions of Ninurta would always be understood in terms of natural cycles.

The Tablet of Destinies was one of the cosmic “bonds” which chained together the various parts of the Mesopotamian cosmos, like some of theMesopotamian temples and cities. It is called “the bond of supreme power”

Ninurta was also the protector and guardian of all tablets and seals or covenants, including the Tablet of Destiny, again this can relate to his identification with the Planet Mercury as this effectively also made him patron of commerce, he could also be expected to take action against oath breakers, so he was an excellent all rounder.

Most important is that Ninurta was a 'King Maker', that is he granted the King the right to rule, but he was never directly associated with Kings in Sumeria in terms of the King as the personification of Ninurta, that would have made for an over-powered King, Ninurta might be expected to fight on his behalf but that was all, the point being one does not simply become Ninurta...

Ninurta in Mythology

Ninurtas role in Mesopotamian Kingship

well i enjoyed reading this thanks for posting it.

What i'm hoping to do here is look at Biblical Apocalyptic tradition as it was sourced from the Babylonian state cult of Marduk…

I am trying to understand the complex symbology represented in their images and how that translates today. (imo)These are pictographs wherein they attempt to describe the modern world they saw in visions and had no clue about from their perspective.

Imagine 'seeing' bombers with men aboard, dressed like Gods, flying in the air, coming down: a pilot, bombardier, radio man, flying a "dragon" high in the sky and dropping things that destroy many lives.

Revelations (to be revealed), or Apocrypha meaning "hidden" has its roots in wondering what these fantastical images the seers recorded a lonnng time ago. We take the modern world for granted, they were desperate to have our world revealed to them.

Now we see it and go fairy tales. They were considered fairy tales back then, too. Flights of fancy that caused such a fervor they were embedded in stone for the future denizens of earth to gawk at.

If you see it from that POV it helps unlock a whole bunch of ideas. What were they "seeing"?

(Ninurta’s weapon šár-ùr “the Slayer of the Multitudes”) --- may have just been them trying to describe one of these…

Slayer of Multitudes...

a reply to: intrptr

Right. But these are Gods not men.

It would of said otherwise but these are specifically E.T.

The Annunaki.

So what you are saying is partially true. It's just E.T will have all that already or at least in some form just better.

A lot better.

Where the possiblity of 1 man in operation of a super advanced war machine can subdue all the forces of the planet. Using only one craft.

Does not mention *One type of craft* Just basically says that these specific *embued chariots* with the souls of very select individuals within the god pantheion means that not just anyone. Expecially a common human soldier would be in operation of any of these. And which such power, anyone who did manage to get their hands on the craft PLUS the *magical* handheld weapons like the septors or the rods or the sickle, the arrow the spear the sword ect there was quite a few enchanted weapons that could cause their own deluge which are mentioned repeadily in the summarian religions.

Ninurta had more than one weapon, It says so in this thread. And there were more than one gods at the time almost of them having some sort of enchanted weapon.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

The understanding then that a singular person could overcome all the multitudes of the Earth and establish his own absolute rule was already formulated in Babylon, the Hebrews liked what they saw and developed their own expectations, adapting the Babylonian texts, and creating the potential job vacancy that awaited taking up.

This idea came from the antediluvian earth and passed on to Sumerian kingdoms by way of blood lines. The Hebrew prophets didn't develop their own expectation because they liked a dam thing about it. Hebrew prophetic "expiations" about the Great Whore were born out of revelations given to them by God as to the dispensation of this "corrupter of nations".

The Son of Man revelation was also an idea that was antediluvian. A concept that the corrupt Sumerian/Babylonian blood lines took on themselves though it was first taught and understood by the Adamic priests. All of what appear to be similar or borrowed Babylonian to Hebrew ideas were concepts really borrowed from the Adamic priests and twisted around by the Babylonians to justify their bloodlines as being the legit decedents of the antediluvian Adamic oracle line.

a reply to: intrptr

Yes i love The Cosmic Superweapon of Ninurta and also the Anzu bird Sumerian Flying Wing which he masters, as you suggest both of those could have had an earlier technological basis in terms of some over-powered Celestial powers and then found their way into the storm God mythos.

You extend that into Messianic expectation and you can come up with all sorts of scenarios...!?!


a reply to: Logarock

To the Hebrews Babylon was oppressive and became their arch enemy, despite learning a great deal of what they knew from that place, their critique with regards to the whore of Babylon is with regards to the prominence of the cult of Istar and the disrepute her Temple practise had fallen into, they saw this as a weakness on the part of the Babylonians to accommodate such and their undoing, weakness leads to chaos and their expectation was in overcoming both.

originally posted by: intrptr

What i'm hoping to do here is look at Biblical Apocalyptic tradition as it was sourced from the Babylonian state cult of Marduk…

I am trying to understand the complex symbology represented in their images and how that translates today. (imo)These are pictographs wherein they attempt to describe the modern world they saw in visions and had no clue about from their perspective.

Imagine 'seeing' bombers with men aboard, dressed like Gods, flying in the air, coming down: a pilot, bombardier, radio man, flying a "dragon" high in the sky and dropping things that destroy many lives.

Revelations (to be revealed), or Apocrypha meaning "hidden" has its roots in wondering what these fantastical images the seers recorded a lonnng time ago. We take the modern world for granted, they were desperate to have our world revealed to them.



(Ninurta’s weapon šár-ùr “the Slayer of the Multitudes”) --- may have just been them trying to describe one of these…

The larger part of theses Sumerian renderings are recording of the events that took place during the antediluvian world. When the sons of god and men waged war and fought for kingdoms. These were the Sumerian kingdoms priest lines retelling the story. They brought this all forward into their history and interpretations of themselves and their legitimacy.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: intrptr

Yes i love The Cosmic Superweapon of Ninurta and also the Anzu bird Sumerian Flying Wing which he masters, as you suggest both of those could have had an earlier technological basis in terms of some over-powered Celestial powers and then found their way into the storm God mythos.

You extend that into Messianic expectation and you can come up with all sorts of scenarios...!?!

Save for the fact that they are not extensions. The Sumerian lines co-opted, twisted, distorted and used to justify their position as the true line of revelators and then sought to subdue the whole earth with this corruption.

a reply to: Logarock
From a xtian and biblical perspective, what you say would make sense, because belief in the bibles inerrancy and/or authority would dictate how you view and measure other historical documentation. The problem is, we have no archaeological evidence to back up the bibles claims, and therefore xtian claims, this is the case. So for non-xtians, who see the bible as just another collection of historical documents, it all looks to us like rewritten stories borrowed from previous cultures. And I personally believe this to be the case. But then, I am not bound by my beliefs to recognize the authority of only one view of history.

The larger part of theses Sumerian renderings are recording of the events that took place during the antediluvian world. When the sons of god and men waged war and fought for kingdoms. These were the Sumerian kingdoms priest lines retelling the story. They brought this all forward into their history and interpretations of themselves and their legitimacy.

Save for the fact that they are not extensions. The Sumerian lines co-opted, twisted, distorted and used to justify their position as the true line of revelators and then sought to subdue the whole earth with this corruption.

Anything other than the bible, and hebrew/xtian texts as evidence of this?

a reply to: Logarock

It's an interesting line of thought that the one who possesses the cosmic super weapon and has mastery of the Anzu bird becomes as Ninurta holding the power of Destiny in his hands, nobody would be likely to argue and if they did wouldn't long survive...

The Sharur, that which brings forth light like the day. The perfect weapon which consumes the rebellious land like fire. Obliterator-of-the-mountains, the maintainer of the people in heaven and earth. The tireless one who never sleeps. No-resisting-this-storm, a falcon against the foreign lands whose wing bears the deluge of battle. The right arm of Lagash whose awesome radiance covers the Land."


He embedded its Šar-ur weapon beside Lagaš like a big standard, placed it in its dreadful place, the Šu-galam, and made it emanate fearsome radiance. On the dais of Ĝir-nun, on the place of making judgments

I just don't think it the sort of thing Jesus would involve himself with.

An enormous hurricane, irresistible, went before the hero, stirred up the dust, caused the dust to settle, levelled high and low, filled the holes. It caused a rain of coals and flaming fires; the fire consumed men. It overturned tall trees by their trunks, reducing the forests to heaps, Earth put her hands on her heart and cried harrowingly; the Tigris was muddied, disturbed, cloudy, stirred up.

The birds there tried to lift their heads to fly away, but their wings trailed on the ground. The storm flooded out the fish there in the subterranean waters, their mouths snapped at the air. It reduced the animals of the open country to firewood, roasting them like locusts. It was a deluge rising and disastrously ruining the mountains.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

From your post above.

Ninurta was also the protector and guardian of all tablets and seals or covenants, including the Tablet of Destiny, again this can relate to his identification with the Planet Mercury as this effectively also made him patron of commerce, he could also be expected to take action against oath breakers, so he was an excellent all rounder.

Most important is that Ninurta was a 'King Maker', that is he granted the King the right to rule, but he was never directly associated with Kings in Sumeria in terms of the King as the personification of Ninurta, that would have made for an over-powered King, Ninurta might be expected to fight on his behalf but that was all, the point being one does not simply become Ninurta...

This gives us a good window into the pre-deluge world as the legitimate line of Adam through Seth as priest had been reduced. The Cain line, after killing his brother Able the true ordained line, took up with the Sons of God and became a force with them ruling and destroying the earth. Ninurta became the King maker and gave whom he would a Destiny. These were the days of the Nephilim half breed sons of God and humans. At last the Almighty got sick of it and put an end to those days.

Ninurta was simply one of these fallen that Cain took up with.

a reply to: Kantzveldt


The events described above could have well been produced by a powerful fallen arch angel. Or whoever the sons of god were back in that world. That's why they are in lock down nowadays.

For a look at the sort of punishment these arch angles can dish out we don't have to look much further than Mike himself. And you may find it interesting that one Hebrew prophet suggests that Mike was ordered to help the Babylonians crush the Hebrews. Naturally the Babylonians thought it was someone else. This was also a pre-captivity prophecy. That the Babylonian king had "looked into the liver" for divinations of success in his ventures and had been led to believe through those that his path was right.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I just don't think it the sort of thing Jesus would involve himself with.

Really. Reading some of the descriptions of His return to earth would suggest otherwise. Not saying the above was Jesus mind you but to think He cannot participate in acts of destruction is just not born out clearly.

I mean we are talking blood so deep its up to the horses bridle. We are talking about Jesus introducing Himself in a whole new light than the way John knew Him on earth. Bowls of wrath and destruction poured out by angels marking the timeline of His movements. His angels.

a reply to: Logarock

Right. But these are Gods not men.

You mean people back then thought they were Gods? If you lived in their time what would these "look like" to you/them?

Image
Can't even tell theres a "man" in there.

God Like? Sure, they fly in the Heavens, they thunder, break sound barriers, drop bombs and come down to land.

Common place now, but back then… "alien" to their realm of experience.

a reply to: Logarock

It's considered more the case that the legends of the fallen angels have their basis in the Apkallu, that these were of extra-terrestrial origin and descended to Earth/emerged from the Abzu, produced the lineages of sages and scholars as preservers of Ante-Diluvian knowledge, were the original King Makers and i would relate any surviving traditions of advanced technology to them rather than the spiritual phenomena of the Anunnaki, though Kings that ruled as the Divine archetype of Dumuzid were incorporated into the pantheon.

The sages and scholars taught the Divine Pantheon of the Anunnaki and worked in conjunction with the spiritual phenomena, of course if the technology did relate to them it could have lent itself to the cult of Ninurta.

The Antediluvian origins of evil

a reply to: Logarock

That's true, the return as the Son of Man involves the Ninurta archetype but his Earthly life involved quite different, it's that transformation i'm questioning...

a reply to: Kantzveldt

as you suggest both of those could have had an earlier technological basis in terms of some over-powered Celestial powers and then found their way into the storm God mythos.

Actually I am suggesting these "myths" as we see them are the forward seeing visions of people that lived then, not a memory of their past.

Like a storm. With clouds, thunder and lightning?

sto rm mythos

They would of course have no clue what these events are caused by. Might as well be lightning and thunder… like a storm?

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: Logarock
From a xtian and biblical perspective, what you say would make sense, because belief in the bibles inerrancy and/or authority would dictate how you view and measure other historical documentation. The problem is, we have no archaeological evidence to back up the bibles claims, and therefore xtian claims, this is the case. So for non-xtians, who see the bible as just another collection of historical documents, it all looks to us like rewritten stories borrowed from previous cultures. And I personally believe this to be the case. But then, I am not bound by my beliefs to recognize the authority of only one view of history.

Let us remember that the amount of actual biblical text that covers the same time frame and events as some of the Sumerian texts is very small. And clearly they are variant in nature. A comparison suggests different interpretation of events rather than borrowing.

If I many without offending anyone, the use of key words is not a very scholarly or intellectual way to come to the borrowed conclusion. That is were they only notion of similarity and borrowing resides.

In both stories of the flood for example we have warning from god, boat, animals, flood. But upon closer examination we find that otherwise the two stories don't share the same detail enough to suggest they were at the least other than two interpretations of the same events. As well the interpretations could suggest at the least a divergence from a known general knowledge of an event not a borrowing from this general knowledge. In detail the two versions suggest certain and definite narratives that justify separate racial, political and religious positions which were both in effect at one time in Sumeria, the Hebrew not being borrowed latter in this regard as Abraham was from Ur.

a reply to: intrptr

It is worth noting that what constituted a 'deluge' could have very broad interpretation, or at least was only symptomatic of more extensive events, and that the earlier one is the basis for the latter...

An enormous hurricane, irresistible, went before the hero, stirred up the dust, caused the dust to settle, levelled high and low, filled the holes. It caused a rain of coals and flaming fires; the fire consumed men. It overturned tall trees by their trunks, reducing the forests to heaps, Earth put her hands on her heart and cried harrowingly; the Tigris was muddied, disturbed, cloudy, stirred up.

The birds there tried to lift their heads to fly away, but their wings trailed on the ground. The storm flooded out the fish there in the subterranean waters, their mouths snapped at the air. It reduced the animals of the open country to firewood, roasting them like locusts. It was a deluge rising and disastrously ruining the mountains.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

I am saying that any caparisons to the Ninurta archetype and Christ were made from early revelations about Christ, pre-diluvian, and pounded into the Ninurta interpretation.

I am better suited to explain the co-opted Son of Man interpretation as it came through Nimrod/Gilgamesh.

Besides when one gets into study of the prophecies of Christ by Hebrew prophets we again find things many things that could not be attributed to a borrowing from anywhere. Considering as well that most of these prophecies we written before Babylonian captivity and really don't match up with any sort of Son of Man Sumerian concept that we have discovered.

The coming and conquering king concept was pre-diluvian and readily co-opted into the an interpretation fit for the Sumerian/Babylonian mindset. His coming meek and humble riding on a jackass colt is not a prophecy that appealed to anyone. When Harod acted to cut off Christ by slaughtering all the children under 2 years he was acting in part off of a pre-Babylonian Hebrew prophesy. Much of the information about Christ has nothing to do with or could even be compared with anything borrowed in captivity from the Babylonians.