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A recent debate on life after death.
page: 3share:
originally posted by: glend
I new instantly when my mother died because an overwhelming presence of love and concern engulfed me when driving so I don't have any doubts about life after death but that doesn't help anyone who hasn't had the same experience. But if I did not believe in life after death it wouldn't really worry me. Think life after death is more worrisome!
I have had something similar happen to me two times, because it happened at the time of death, and not after, I hypothesise that the brain can communicate with other brains in certain circumstances, just like psychedelics seem to do, or stress, or any other extreme brain states.
a reply to: Toadmund
Most definitely, but a communication channel that only opened during death couldn't evolve so shouldn't exist if darwinian evolution is correct. I discovered latter in life that a communication channel does exist but operates at a very subtle level that cannot he easily heard above the constant barrage of thoughts that continually overwhelms our consciousness. Meditation and some psychedelics can help us perceive that communication channel. But then you have to ask, why does that communication channel exist.
Most definitely, but a communication channel that only opened during death couldn't evolve so shouldn't exist if darwinian evolution is correct. I discovered latter in life that a communication channel does exist but operates at a very subtle level that cannot he easily heard above the constant barrage of thoughts that continually overwhelms our consciousness. Meditation and some psychedelics can help us perceive that communication channel. But then you have to ask, why does that communication channel exist.
Evolution could play a part if this brain to brain thing exists because it aids human contact, sensing danger, sensing a traitor.
And in death perhaps this goes into overdrive.
I am not trying to knock LAD, I am trying to eliminate all possiblities contrary to the belief, then after I have exhausted all of those, and something happens that convinces me, well, I'll be convinced.
I have seen a ghost, just as plain as lying next to me on the bed, anyway another story for another time, point being, I don't know what I saw, was it just an imprint of a movement walking towards the bed on the fabric of the cosmos?
Is it made outa 'dark matter'?
And in death perhaps this goes into overdrive.
I am not trying to knock LAD, I am trying to eliminate all possiblities contrary to the belief, then after I have exhausted all of those, and something happens that convinces me, well, I'll be convinced.
I have seen a ghost, just as plain as lying next to me on the bed, anyway another story for another time, point being, I don't know what I saw, was it just an imprint of a movement walking towards the bed on the fabric of the cosmos?
Is it made outa 'dark matter'?
edit on 2-12-2014 by Toadmund because: add a ? to replace a . Yes I did do that, had to happen.
I believe we move onto another life. I think we have many forms, which in my opinion are actually countless.
You can believe that, have faith, whatever.
But is it true, or is it not?
Nobody knows.
No evidence.
Do you have any proof to offer?
But is it true, or is it not?
Nobody knows.
No evidence.
Do you have any proof to offer?
a reply to: Toadmund
This is ultimately the very principle about consciousness that drives me insane. The only basis of KNOWING anything is pure qualia, or the experience of it. This of course is a jump into philosophy which many science-minded people find frustrating because it really can't answer anything. It can settle our wonders, thoughts and fears on a personal level at least for a time, but it contributes little to the actual discipline of science. Thus far anyway. My wife is not religious, she would probably call herself spiritual, and she adores the very concept of faith. For me, it is the single most laborious torture I can inflict on my mind. By no means is that meant offensively, I just resent on some level that it is required of me in order to experience more than 'this'.
This is ultimately the very principle about consciousness that drives me insane. The only basis of KNOWING anything is pure qualia, or the experience of it. This of course is a jump into philosophy which many science-minded people find frustrating because it really can't answer anything. It can settle our wonders, thoughts and fears on a personal level at least for a time, but it contributes little to the actual discipline of science. Thus far anyway. My wife is not religious, she would probably call herself spiritual, and she adores the very concept of faith. For me, it is the single most laborious torture I can inflict on my mind. By no means is that meant offensively, I just resent on some level that it is required of me in order to experience more than 'this'.
a reply to: lonesomerimbaud
Some of these responses are very thoughtful and provocative. Not to use other references but if we used the concept of infinity, we may get closer to an understanding -not an answer but perhaps this could be close to the right path:
First a few assumptions:
Space is infinite -by definition and by all of my ways of disproving this, I come up short. There can't be an end to space.
If this is in fact true -then whatever caused the birth of the Milky Way -and now we know of millions of other universes, whatever caused this must happen again -somewhere out there. In other words -if our universe was created by a specific sequence of events, and our world (our earth), within our solar system, within our Universe, -down to each and every cellular reaction, creation to death and so on is a finite equation like: A+B+C+D+M2*zz-II2+…(trillions of trillions of events every split second), (the equation would have billions (obviously more than a billion) of variables, all happening at billions of moments). The key word is the equation of our current existence is a finite combination. If it is finite and space is infinite -the sequence will happen again -exactly as it is happening now. There will be of course trillions upon trillions of the slightest variables that will be different -but there will absolutely be one combination -that is exactly the same.
If that is the case -life after death is possible as no life after death -it all depends what creation we currently inhabit.
Does this make any sense?
For example -if your friend died today in our current world. Perhaps, on another earth that is exactly like our earth but a few variables are different -he is alive and well.
Some of these responses are very thoughtful and provocative. Not to use other references but if we used the concept of infinity, we may get closer to an understanding -not an answer but perhaps this could be close to the right path:
First a few assumptions:
Space is infinite -by definition and by all of my ways of disproving this, I come up short. There can't be an end to space.
If this is in fact true -then whatever caused the birth of the Milky Way -and now we know of millions of other universes, whatever caused this must happen again -somewhere out there. In other words -if our universe was created by a specific sequence of events, and our world (our earth), within our solar system, within our Universe, -down to each and every cellular reaction, creation to death and so on is a finite equation like: A+B+C+D+M2*zz-II2+…(trillions of trillions of events every split second), (the equation would have billions (obviously more than a billion) of variables, all happening at billions of moments). The key word is the equation of our current existence is a finite combination. If it is finite and space is infinite -the sequence will happen again -exactly as it is happening now. There will be of course trillions upon trillions of the slightest variables that will be different -but there will absolutely be one combination -that is exactly the same.
If that is the case -life after death is possible as no life after death -it all depends what creation we currently inhabit.
Does this make any sense?
For example -if your friend died today in our current world. Perhaps, on another earth that is exactly like our earth but a few variables are different -he is alive and well.
a reply to: BS_Slayer
One would have to prove that consciousness exists independently outside of the mind. If they can rule out, without a shadow of a doubt, that the human body and brain do not give rise to consciousness, then, the only other alternative, is that it originates outside of it.
Thus if one dies they would technically still be conscious, only existing in another hypothetical reality, the reality where the consciousness is grounded.
Although, they would also have to prove that it is a consciousness that is permanent, otherwise we would cease to exist if it were to be extinguished, and in the ultimate sense, there would be no life after "death" weather it be the death of a body or the death of a "spirit".
One would have to prove that consciousness exists independently outside of the mind. If they can rule out, without a shadow of a doubt, that the human body and brain do not give rise to consciousness, then, the only other alternative, is that it originates outside of it.
Thus if one dies they would technically still be conscious, only existing in another hypothetical reality, the reality where the consciousness is grounded.
Although, they would also have to prove that it is a consciousness that is permanent, otherwise we would cease to exist if it were to be extinguished, and in the ultimate sense, there would be no life after "death" weather it be the death of a body or the death of a "spirit".
Its simple we're all stuck in this programmed holographic world created by the one they call Anu. There is life after death, but another programmed
one. We will always come back here, if not other "programmed" planes until we realize we are one.
a reply to: Moonlightmile
I love these kinds of discussions, especially in regard the the concept of infinity. In a far less sophisticated way, I would contemplate similar concepts when I was a kid, albeit with more intellectual limitation. I like your example a lot, it's very thought provoking. I'm trying to consider your premise and understand if and how it could relate to the concept of a multi-verse. If in fact by shear infinity alone, there is or would eventually be another exact me; that means there would also have to be infinite variations of me, and perhaps completely different variations of those variations... you can see how weird this gets lol.
Any time I've tried contemplating anything beyond a 3rd dimension, I always assumed as science tends to claim that it is completely out of our range of "detect ability" for lack of a better term, via all sorts of quantum laws. That is to say that it is or would be outside our actual dimension. What your proposing is interesting because if I understand it correctly, it is by shear size alone that makes your premise conceivable. It does so without even getting into Quantum physics. Awesome.
I love these kinds of discussions, especially in regard the the concept of infinity. In a far less sophisticated way, I would contemplate similar concepts when I was a kid, albeit with more intellectual limitation. I like your example a lot, it's very thought provoking. I'm trying to consider your premise and understand if and how it could relate to the concept of a multi-verse. If in fact by shear infinity alone, there is or would eventually be another exact me; that means there would also have to be infinite variations of me, and perhaps completely different variations of those variations... you can see how weird this gets lol.
Any time I've tried contemplating anything beyond a 3rd dimension, I always assumed as science tends to claim that it is completely out of our range of "detect ability" for lack of a better term, via all sorts of quantum laws. That is to say that it is or would be outside our actual dimension. What your proposing is interesting because if I understand it correctly, it is by shear size alone that makes your premise conceivable. It does so without even getting into Quantum physics. Awesome.
edit on 3-12-2014 by BS_Slayer because: (no reason given)
a reply to: SystemResistor
If that alone could be proven, I would by a ticket for for the spirit-train in a heartbeat. I would have little worry about what another form of existence might be like too, since I'd be too busy celebrating the fact that I was in some aware form; infinite. Sadly, although not indefinitely; science seems to be confident that it is on the verge of proving via a collection of individual processes in the brain, that consciousness is the result of said processes working together. I am not a neurologist so I am saying that it is 100% true, but there is plenty of literature and discussion from some seemingly bright individuals that claim it is.
Keeping my fingers crossed that we get to be more than archaic fungus lol.
If that alone could be proven, I would by a ticket for for the spirit-train in a heartbeat. I would have little worry about what another form of existence might be like too, since I'd be too busy celebrating the fact that I was in some aware form; infinite. Sadly, although not indefinitely; science seems to be confident that it is on the verge of proving via a collection of individual processes in the brain, that consciousness is the result of said processes working together. I am not a neurologist so I am saying that it is 100% true, but there is plenty of literature and discussion from some seemingly bright individuals that claim it is.
Keeping my fingers crossed that we get to be more than archaic fungus lol.
a reply to: Cloud4300
Cloud, I envy the confidence and simplicity in your statement. I would wonder how you came upon this information and what if any scrutiny you may have utilized to test it. Whom or what created Anu? Is Anu God? A demigod? What does Anu do "there" while we are "here"?
Cloud, I envy the confidence and simplicity in your statement. I would wonder how you came upon this information and what if any scrutiny you may have utilized to test it. Whom or what created Anu? Is Anu God? A demigod? What does Anu do "there" while we are "here"?
I've been think about that debate for a few days. Even though the "against" team won, I feel the "for" team could have mentioned this to help refute
the comment that images and sensations can be re-created using methods in a lab.
The experiences in the "after world" are not explainable in any language we know There are NO words to describe the experience. Sure, we can say "bright colors" or "family member" or "complex geometry" but those adjectives or simplistic descriptions are only 1/100000 of what we can muster out.
Here's my point. The brain can't come up with something it hasn't already experienced. Sure, it can construct some abstract nonsense around a concept enveloping an experience and make it something else comparative to what we know, but that's as far as it can go. You can't "imagine" a new color for instance. How can you use any language to describe a new color? You can't. There are 'places' that people go to which can not be described accurately. Concepts, sensations, experiences. Surely, if all of these things are just "recreated" in your brain, then there are words for them seeing these experiences are just extrapolations from real events experienced in our lives.
There was a video I watched that for the life of me I wish I could find. It was a very intelligent response from someone who has been studying the affects of dimethyltryptamine AKA (ayahuasca) experiences related to the spiritual world. When one takes a journey into that realm, their visual cortex begins to respond (eyes closed) to various stimuli which can only be attributed to "something" being seen.
There was an optical illusion I saw once on the net which resulted in the walls moving, plant leaves lifting, tiny dots zipping too and fro, similar to that of those coming out of a '___' induced trance. Without paraphrasing too much, I believe the answer for that was we must be experiencing something which is directly affecting our visual cortex in order for there to be stimulus like that.
Placing the "god" helmet on your head might induce some of these sensations ( feeling like you're not alone, higher power, uneasiness, love etc) but it won't recreate a fantastical land of light beings, palaces, traveling in a nth dimension, massive upload of information in an "alien language" for a lack of a better word. It won't recreate the actual experience. Just some byproduct of the experience.
So when theses doctors say they can recreate the experience, it would be prudent if they did it with a NDE survivor and make comparisons. I would safely bet their results are not even close.
ETA: This is what the other side looks like. The best anyone can convey through painting, yet words still can't describe what it's really like.
"Net of Being"
Artist, Alex Grey.
www.youtube.com...
So, in conclusion, when those skeptics can recreate this with the god helmet, then I may listen to what they have to say. Until then, all they have is a scratch on the surface.
The experiences in the "after world" are not explainable in any language we know There are NO words to describe the experience. Sure, we can say "bright colors" or "family member" or "complex geometry" but those adjectives or simplistic descriptions are only 1/100000 of what we can muster out.
Here's my point. The brain can't come up with something it hasn't already experienced. Sure, it can construct some abstract nonsense around a concept enveloping an experience and make it something else comparative to what we know, but that's as far as it can go. You can't "imagine" a new color for instance. How can you use any language to describe a new color? You can't. There are 'places' that people go to which can not be described accurately. Concepts, sensations, experiences. Surely, if all of these things are just "recreated" in your brain, then there are words for them seeing these experiences are just extrapolations from real events experienced in our lives.
There was a video I watched that for the life of me I wish I could find. It was a very intelligent response from someone who has been studying the affects of dimethyltryptamine AKA (ayahuasca) experiences related to the spiritual world. When one takes a journey into that realm, their visual cortex begins to respond (eyes closed) to various stimuli which can only be attributed to "something" being seen.
There was an optical illusion I saw once on the net which resulted in the walls moving, plant leaves lifting, tiny dots zipping too and fro, similar to that of those coming out of a '___' induced trance. Without paraphrasing too much, I believe the answer for that was we must be experiencing something which is directly affecting our visual cortex in order for there to be stimulus like that.
Placing the "god" helmet on your head might induce some of these sensations ( feeling like you're not alone, higher power, uneasiness, love etc) but it won't recreate a fantastical land of light beings, palaces, traveling in a nth dimension, massive upload of information in an "alien language" for a lack of a better word. It won't recreate the actual experience. Just some byproduct of the experience.
So when theses doctors say they can recreate the experience, it would be prudent if they did it with a NDE survivor and make comparisons. I would safely bet their results are not even close.
ETA: This is what the other side looks like. The best anyone can convey through painting, yet words still can't describe what it's really like.
"Net of Being"
Artist, Alex Grey.
www.youtube.com...
So, in conclusion, when those skeptics can recreate this with the god helmet, then I may listen to what they have to say. Until then, all they have is a scratch on the surface.
edit on 3-12-2014 by FlySolo because: (no reason given)
Anu is a False god. He only calls himself a God because he and a few others, created this Human form. And placed upon it a program to forever trap us
infinite beings in. If you have time I suggest you read all of this info as I and let me know how it makes you feel, and how it makes your very
essence feel. I hope it sheds light in those dark areas of your mind that filled with uncertainty. Whether you choose to believe it or not is
completely up to you. In a way this has freed my mind from a certain layer of uncertainty and does resonate with me for some reason. Enjoy. and if
you like, please do feel free to spread the word.
www.wingmakers.com...
www.wingmakers.com...
Anu is a False god. He only calls himself a God because he and a few others, created this Human form. And placed upon it a program to forever trap us
infinite beings in. If you have time I suggest you read all of this info as I and let me know how it makes you feel, and how it makes your very
essence feel. I hope it sheds light in those dark areas of your mind that filled with uncertainty. Whether you choose to believe it or not is
completely up to you. In a way this has freed my mind from a certain layer of uncertainty and does resonate with me for some reason. Enjoy. and if
you like, please do feel free to spread the word. Remember to read it with an empty mind. If you don't you will only separate yourself further from
the truth.
www.wingmakers.com...
www.wingmakers.com...
edit on 3/20/2014 by Cloud4300 because: Missing info
a reply to: BS_Slayer
Anu is a False god. He only calls himself a God because he and a few others, created this Human form. And placed upon it a program to forever trap us infinite beings in. If you have time I suggest you read all of this info as I and let me know how it makes you feel, and how it makes your very essence feel. I hope it sheds light in those dark areas of your mind that filled with uncertainty. Whether you choose to believe it or not is completely up to you.
In a way this has freed my mind from a certain layer of uncertainty and does resonate with me for some reason. Enjoy. and if you like, please do feel free to spread the word. Remember to read it with an empty mind. If you don't you will only separate yourself further from the truth.
www.wingmakers.com...
Anu is a False god. He only calls himself a God because he and a few others, created this Human form. And placed upon it a program to forever trap us infinite beings in. If you have time I suggest you read all of this info as I and let me know how it makes you feel, and how it makes your very essence feel. I hope it sheds light in those dark areas of your mind that filled with uncertainty. Whether you choose to believe it or not is completely up to you.
In a way this has freed my mind from a certain layer of uncertainty and does resonate with me for some reason. Enjoy. and if you like, please do feel free to spread the word. Remember to read it with an empty mind. If you don't you will only separate yourself further from the truth.
www.wingmakers.com...
edit on 3/20/2014 by Cloud4300 because: Missing info
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