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A recent debate on life after death.
page: 1share:
I chose this forum because in general, most of us agree that sooner or later we will all take the great dirt nap. I have seen this debate a few times
now and find both sides compelling, although I have always found anecdotal evidence on any topic to be irritating. To be fair though, very often, even
in court; anecdotal evidence is sometimes all there is. I am not representing one side or another, merely delivering some relatively recent activity
on the subject. I would like to note that Dr. Eben Alexander will deliver a fairly compelling story, but you would be wise to check his background for
some of the "questionable" spots.
Death is not final:
Pro: Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander - Dr. Raymond Moody
Con: Physicist Sean Carroll - Neurosurgeon Steve Novella
www.youtube.com...
Death is not final:
Pro: Neurosurgeon Eben Alexander - Dr. Raymond Moody
Con: Physicist Sean Carroll - Neurosurgeon Steve Novella
www.youtube.com...
edit on 30-11-2014 by BS_Slayer because: Video posting noobishness
My buddy Chester (his real name is Peter, but he's been Chester to the rest of us since we were all kids) stood up from the Thanksgiving dinner table
and dropped stone dead (massive coronary) this past week. I'm assuming that he's getting his afterlife legs together right now, so I'm not
expecting anything for at least a couple weeks or so. He and I have had many recent conversations about this, as we've had a string of deaths to
contend with lately. He knows what to expect, and he knows what (in theory) he should be capable of as a surviving intellect. I guess I'll just have
to see if he gets through with something to let me know how it went. He knows better than to be subtle about it, so I'm going to be expecting
something significant. That said, it's really freakin' hard to accomplish anything overwhelmingly demonstrative from that realm to this one, since
they are so structurally incompatible. So, I'm not going to start selling tickets to any big show here. Chetty knows what he needs to get together,
and he'll be motivated to make something big happen. As to whether he'll be able to figure out how to overcome the technical issues will be the big
question here.
If something definitive occurs, I'll try to get something obvious that I can share.
Yes, Chetty just died, but he and I both see corporeal existence as a quick stage that is passed through on the human being's progressive development toward ultimate viability, so it's hard for me to grieve over his death. He never felt a thing, and I can only hope that I have as easy a passing. And one within as pleasant a surrounding.
If something definitive occurs, I'll try to get something obvious that I can share.
Yes, Chetty just died, but he and I both see corporeal existence as a quick stage that is passed through on the human being's progressive development toward ultimate viability, so it's hard for me to grieve over his death. He never felt a thing, and I can only hope that I have as easy a passing. And one within as pleasant a surrounding.
The Waterbug story ...
www.healingheart.net...
Posted with best intent ...
www.healingheart.net...
Posted with best intent ...
edit on 30-11-2014 by Timely because: spelling atrocity ...
a reply to: NorEaster
I would be quite interested in hearing about it, if he gets back to you. He will have done better than Houdini was able to do if he succeeds.
I really wish I had more evidence than my own intuition for what I suspect to be true. That this life is nothing more than one phase of our existence, and what we term "death", is simply transformation and migration to the next phase of our eternal existence.
I would be quite interested in hearing about it, if he gets back to you. He will have done better than Houdini was able to do if he succeeds.
I really wish I had more evidence than my own intuition for what I suspect to be true. That this life is nothing more than one phase of our existence, and what we term "death", is simply transformation and migration to the next phase of our eternal existence.
a reply to: BS_Slayer
Well it is right to say the only evidence is anecdotal. We are having to postulate with the only pro evidence being subjective experience in a shocked bodily and mental state; that and the testimony of spiritual icons like Jesus, etc.
I would question whether any of these after life adventurers have actually been clinically dead. All of them lived did they not? Their brains had not petrified so brain death did not occur. There is nobody who has lived to tell the tale of being finitely brain dead.
I would conjecture that these experiences are hallucinatory and related to the individuals' consciousness and perception drawing on their cultural experience. For example a Christian person would reflect on their experience in a Christian way.
I don't remember anything before my consciousness came into being and kicked in at the age of being between one and two years old. Why should it be any different afterwards just because it is a human desire for it to be a continuing conscious experience?
I've got to the stage where I see myself as a finite organism with a consciousness and self awareness (to a degree). What I essentially am is a series of experiences and memories of a life painted on a canvas of consciousness.
Are we just neural entities with an expiry date, our experiences meaning as little as those of bacterial entities in the grand scheme of the universe that created us? I would hope it to be like Jesus said, but only His words to go on.
Humans have always wanted to know. Many shamans and priests have claimed exclusive insight and knowledge. Many survivors of near death (not full death) experiences tell us of wondrous tunnels of light and meeting their relatives (may be linked to euphoric comfort mechanism in nature and our brain to balance the terror of oblivion). The real truth is that we do not truly know and will never live to tell the tale.
Well it is right to say the only evidence is anecdotal. We are having to postulate with the only pro evidence being subjective experience in a shocked bodily and mental state; that and the testimony of spiritual icons like Jesus, etc.
I would question whether any of these after life adventurers have actually been clinically dead. All of them lived did they not? Their brains had not petrified so brain death did not occur. There is nobody who has lived to tell the tale of being finitely brain dead.
I would conjecture that these experiences are hallucinatory and related to the individuals' consciousness and perception drawing on their cultural experience. For example a Christian person would reflect on their experience in a Christian way.
I don't remember anything before my consciousness came into being and kicked in at the age of being between one and two years old. Why should it be any different afterwards just because it is a human desire for it to be a continuing conscious experience?
I've got to the stage where I see myself as a finite organism with a consciousness and self awareness (to a degree). What I essentially am is a series of experiences and memories of a life painted on a canvas of consciousness.
Are we just neural entities with an expiry date, our experiences meaning as little as those of bacterial entities in the grand scheme of the universe that created us? I would hope it to be like Jesus said, but only His words to go on.
Humans have always wanted to know. Many shamans and priests have claimed exclusive insight and knowledge. Many survivors of near death (not full death) experiences tell us of wondrous tunnels of light and meeting their relatives (may be linked to euphoric comfort mechanism in nature and our brain to balance the terror of oblivion). The real truth is that we do not truly know and will never live to tell the tale.
edit on 30-11-2014 by lonesomerimbaud because: correction.
a reply to: NorEaster
When my brother shot and killed himself in a bathroom stall at the police station he worked at, it hit the family hard. Me especially since he was my older "hero" brother I fashioned myself to imitate, my only role model. There was no funeral other than me and two other brothers loading him into the cremation furnace and pushing the button. There was a cop party 'wake' but closure wasn't happening. I couldn't fathom that my hero brother homicide detective would shoot himself and I balled for weeks. I needed to 'see' his corpse but that never happened seeing there was no open casket funeral. Just a stock pine box nailed shut. Then he showed me during a dream. He showed me his face, hair slicked back post mortem on a table with massive bruising around his left side of the head.
Now I could say it was only a dream, something my mind constructed to help me grieve but something about it wasn't like any dream I've had. In fact, I rarely remember my dreams. It was just a snap shot of his dead body on a slab with massive hemorrhaging and discoloration. Almost as if he heard my request and sent an image to help me get through the pain. And that was it. Nothing else and never again have I had it reoccur. Closure finally happened. My other brother had a similar dream, except it wasn't like mine. Instead he saw his legs and feet sticking out from under the bathroom stall door
Rest in peace Sean.
When my brother shot and killed himself in a bathroom stall at the police station he worked at, it hit the family hard. Me especially since he was my older "hero" brother I fashioned myself to imitate, my only role model. There was no funeral other than me and two other brothers loading him into the cremation furnace and pushing the button. There was a cop party 'wake' but closure wasn't happening. I couldn't fathom that my hero brother homicide detective would shoot himself and I balled for weeks. I needed to 'see' his corpse but that never happened seeing there was no open casket funeral. Just a stock pine box nailed shut. Then he showed me during a dream. He showed me his face, hair slicked back post mortem on a table with massive bruising around his left side of the head.
Now I could say it was only a dream, something my mind constructed to help me grieve but something about it wasn't like any dream I've had. In fact, I rarely remember my dreams. It was just a snap shot of his dead body on a slab with massive hemorrhaging and discoloration. Almost as if he heard my request and sent an image to help me get through the pain. And that was it. Nothing else and never again have I had it reoccur. Closure finally happened. My other brother had a similar dream, except it wasn't like mine. Instead he saw his legs and feet sticking out from under the bathroom stall door
Rest in peace Sean.
edit on 30-11-2014 by FlySolo because: (no reason given)
a reply to: FlySolo
Sorry to hear about that experience, it must have been and be a nightmare. I tend to float back and forth between skepticism and the need for meaning and a possible existence beyond this one. I would presume you have thought it all out and then some. Was the dream unlike others simply because the experience was? Or was it in fact something beyond the apparent limitations we observe in nature? I have always found my own experiences, especially dreams to have a profound impact on me. It's not beyond my ability to accept the possibility that a sense of profoundness in and of itself, despite its uniqueness; is still little more than a "synaptic setting" so to speak.
On the other hand, it is quite possible, IF life as we know it does have some inherent design or intention behind it, that this place we exist in is intentionally tweaked as not to give us answers. Maybe that is somehow an essential part of it all. Maybe the only relevant aspect of our thoughts and actions are important when we are in a true state of vulnerability. I used to thrive on that thought, but find the apparent randomness of death, pain, and suffering to make it seem unlikely. I think meaning is and of itself the major culprit either way. I find it profoundly difficult to negate the sense of meaning from existence, and yet nature seems to do it flawlessly.
You never know though... did your brother give you guys the closure you needed, literally? Is some layer of his being still there to feel or think on some level? I certainly hope so.
Sorry to hear about that experience, it must have been and be a nightmare. I tend to float back and forth between skepticism and the need for meaning and a possible existence beyond this one. I would presume you have thought it all out and then some. Was the dream unlike others simply because the experience was? Or was it in fact something beyond the apparent limitations we observe in nature? I have always found my own experiences, especially dreams to have a profound impact on me. It's not beyond my ability to accept the possibility that a sense of profoundness in and of itself, despite its uniqueness; is still little more than a "synaptic setting" so to speak.
On the other hand, it is quite possible, IF life as we know it does have some inherent design or intention behind it, that this place we exist in is intentionally tweaked as not to give us answers. Maybe that is somehow an essential part of it all. Maybe the only relevant aspect of our thoughts and actions are important when we are in a true state of vulnerability. I used to thrive on that thought, but find the apparent randomness of death, pain, and suffering to make it seem unlikely. I think meaning is and of itself the major culprit either way. I find it profoundly difficult to negate the sense of meaning from existence, and yet nature seems to do it flawlessly.
You never know though... did your brother give you guys the closure you needed, literally? Is some layer of his being still there to feel or think on some level? I certainly hope so.
TextText Red
Hello
I read the posts and sorry for those that lost a loved one. I have noticed that since so many of my people have been assimilated and even follow religious ways that depict heaven a certain way.
I have seen videos of people telling of seeing tunnels and a light. Seeing relatives that have already passed on.
I have had a friend and relative but through our life growing up together we talked about everything and even death and talked about what happens to us.
Now we grew up with the Native American Church and there was the old way the Medicine Lodge and our parents followed the Native American Church ways, so we followed them and then no one was without a way.
My Dad died from non-hodgkins lymphoma and in his funeral prayer meeting something happened.
The Funeral meeting is conducted by someone chosen by the family that lost a loved one, he has three other helpers, one is a drum chief, one a cedar man and then the fireman. This ceremony is all night and they use this medicine called Peyote.
My Dad was a Reverend of The White Cross Native American Church and the fireplace was the cross fire way, there are a few fireplaces, one is the half-moon fire place, and a few others.
Starts by a prayer and then sponsors speak if able, the leader speaks for those unable and he takes charge of the prayer meeting, who talks and who prays and there are stops during the night, some say depicting Jesus going on a fast and at certain times of the night he comes to his followers to wake them as they fell asleep.
the first stop is at Mid-night and then at three in the morning.
I sat right in front of my Dad's casket laying in state and after the three in the morning stop, i felt someone lean on my shoulder and heard my Dad's voice say, Kunu keep your eyes closed till I tell you to open them.
In a few moments he told me, Kunu! open your eyes! I heard a voice say, This is where your Dad is going to be!
The heaven we were always told about, was not what I saw.
Hello
I read the posts and sorry for those that lost a loved one. I have noticed that since so many of my people have been assimilated and even follow religious ways that depict heaven a certain way.
I have seen videos of people telling of seeing tunnels and a light. Seeing relatives that have already passed on.
I have had a friend and relative but through our life growing up together we talked about everything and even death and talked about what happens to us.
Now we grew up with the Native American Church and there was the old way the Medicine Lodge and our parents followed the Native American Church ways, so we followed them and then no one was without a way.
My Dad died from non-hodgkins lymphoma and in his funeral prayer meeting something happened.
The Funeral meeting is conducted by someone chosen by the family that lost a loved one, he has three other helpers, one is a drum chief, one a cedar man and then the fireman. This ceremony is all night and they use this medicine called Peyote.
My Dad was a Reverend of The White Cross Native American Church and the fireplace was the cross fire way, there are a few fireplaces, one is the half-moon fire place, and a few others.
Starts by a prayer and then sponsors speak if able, the leader speaks for those unable and he takes charge of the prayer meeting, who talks and who prays and there are stops during the night, some say depicting Jesus going on a fast and at certain times of the night he comes to his followers to wake them as they fell asleep.
the first stop is at Mid-night and then at three in the morning.
I sat right in front of my Dad's casket laying in state and after the three in the morning stop, i felt someone lean on my shoulder and heard my Dad's voice say, Kunu keep your eyes closed till I tell you to open them.
In a few moments he told me, Kunu! open your eyes! I heard a voice say, This is where your Dad is going to be!
The heaven we were always told about, was not what I saw.
a reply to: BS_Slayer
It was like "here you go, you asked for this". The image is still crystal clear 8 years later. Just a picture, nothing more nothing less. There was no talking, no script, just one single image. I don't dream like that and I don't think many of us do. There's usually some kind of scenario happening when we dream which leads to many irrelevant scenarios which seem to extrapolate on itself. Not in this case.
Yes. But of all dates, he chose remembrance day Nov 11 2006. Memories fade, but the date he chose helps to always give him thanks for the time he spent here.
Sure am thinking about him a lot now.
passages.winnipegfreepress.com...
Damn good cop too. Not one of those idiot power hungry cops that are recruited today. He had very good interrogation skills which could make criminals confess without duress. Even spoke up in defense against the wrongly convicted Thomas Sophonow from his earlier years. Will be sadly missed.
Was the dream unlike others simply because the experience was? Or was it in fact something beyond the apparent limitations we observe in nature?
It was like "here you go, you asked for this". The image is still crystal clear 8 years later. Just a picture, nothing more nothing less. There was no talking, no script, just one single image. I don't dream like that and I don't think many of us do. There's usually some kind of scenario happening when we dream which leads to many irrelevant scenarios which seem to extrapolate on itself. Not in this case.
did your brother give you guys the closure you needed, literally? Is some layer of his being still there to feel or think on some level? I certainly hope so.
Yes. But of all dates, he chose remembrance day Nov 11 2006. Memories fade, but the date he chose helps to always give him thanks for the time he spent here.
Sure am thinking about him a lot now.
passages.winnipegfreepress.com...
Damn good cop too. Not one of those idiot power hungry cops that are recruited today. He had very good interrogation skills which could make criminals confess without duress. Even spoke up in defense against the wrongly convicted Thomas Sophonow from his earlier years. Will be sadly missed.
a reply to: BS_Slayer
Although I've had one experience that seems to be of an 'afterlife' origination, it wasn't other than a sensation. No visions, but an audible occurrence. It was indistinct but verified event by my companion who resides on the edge of this reality. It may be this was a peripheral facilitation by her.
It was strange and disconcerting.
I think that when I watch 'Ghost Adventures', with their two-way communication events, that it could only be interpreted as convincing of SOME form of afterlife. Since I am viewing a TV show, it is possible that they are faking it. I will certainly entertain contrary views to the apparent interactions.
Although I've had one experience that seems to be of an 'afterlife' origination, it wasn't other than a sensation. No visions, but an audible occurrence. It was indistinct but verified event by my companion who resides on the edge of this reality. It may be this was a peripheral facilitation by her.
It was strange and disconcerting.
I think that when I watch 'Ghost Adventures', with their two-way communication events, that it could only be interpreted as convincing of SOME form of afterlife. Since I am viewing a TV show, it is possible that they are faking it. I will certainly entertain contrary views to the apparent interactions.
a reply to: BS_Slayer
Although I've had one experience that seems to be of an 'afterlife' origination, it wasn't other than a sensation. No visions, but an audible occurrence. It was indistinct but verified event by my companion who resides on the edge of this reality. It may be this was a peripheral facilitation by her.
It was strange and disconcerting.
I think that when I watch 'Ghost Adventures', with their two-way communication events, that it could only be interpreted as convincing of SOME form of afterlife. Since I am viewing a TV show, it is possible that they are faking it. I will certainly entertain contrary views to the apparent interactions.
Although I've had one experience that seems to be of an 'afterlife' origination, it wasn't other than a sensation. No visions, but an audible occurrence. It was indistinct but verified event by my companion who resides on the edge of this reality. It may be this was a peripheral facilitation by her.
It was strange and disconcerting.
I think that when I watch 'Ghost Adventures', with their two-way communication events, that it could only be interpreted as convincing of SOME form of afterlife. Since I am viewing a TV show, it is possible that they are faking it. I will certainly entertain contrary views to the apparent interactions.
a reply to: chachonee
I love hearing so many different ways different cultures release those that have departed. I was born in a Catholic family, not a particularly stern or rigid one, but we had the usual Christian rituals. Do you feel that what you experienced was your father? or something related to peyote, and I don't ask that sarcastically, but sincerely. I have no problem at all not believing in heaven, I think my main issue is that I want to keep experiencing and learning, though not necessarily the way we do here. I yearn for meaning in general, I am the first to admit it. I also (as I'm sure everyone does) hate the idea that the bonds formed in this life can't live on, outside of memories. I say 'can't' not from a place of knowing, but in assumption based on what I observe in nature.
I love hearing so many different ways different cultures release those that have departed. I was born in a Catholic family, not a particularly stern or rigid one, but we had the usual Christian rituals. Do you feel that what you experienced was your father? or something related to peyote, and I don't ask that sarcastically, but sincerely. I have no problem at all not believing in heaven, I think my main issue is that I want to keep experiencing and learning, though not necessarily the way we do here. I yearn for meaning in general, I am the first to admit it. I also (as I'm sure everyone does) hate the idea that the bonds formed in this life can't live on, outside of memories. I say 'can't' not from a place of knowing, but in assumption based on what I observe in nature.
originally posted by: BS_Slayer
a reply to: chachonee
I love hearing so many different ways different cultures release those that have departed. I was born in a Catholic family, not a particularly stern or rigid one, but we had the usual Christian rituals. Do you feel that what you experienced was your father? or something related to peyote, and I don't ask that sarcastically, but sincerely. I have no problem at all not believing in heaven, I think my main issue is that I want to keep experiencing and learning, though not necessarily the way we do here. I yearn for meaning in general, I am the first to admit it. I also (as I'm sure everyone does) hate the idea that the bonds formed in this life can't live on, outside of memories. I say 'can't' not from a place of knowing, but in assumption based on what I observe in nature.
Hello,
My Dad passed on in 1994 and I still think about that event. I really felt that it was my Dad who touched my shoulder that night. He told me that, one day I am going to get visited, and when they come to visit, you won't be able to move, not even your eyes and you might not be able to even breathe.
I know that them relations made here are the same after we leave but with more clarity of life lessons. You know, maybe for some peyote alters their mind, and for me it focuses me. Guess i been using Peyote since i was in my Mother's womb, she partook peyote when she carried me and at our ceremonies they consume a lot of Peyote. I think that if you have a weak mind, you better stay away from them mind altering plants.
edit on
30-11-2014 by chachonee because: (no reason given)
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