Personal Responsability and drug addiction...

a reply to: Tangerine

Oh i did not know that.

That makes it rather more sinister than i thought then!!

a reply to: onequestion

Think about this, when we make our mind up about something what we are doing is merely retiring a thought process, we decide to let the thought go and to stop paying attention to it. When a bill is due we think about it, the thought keeps reminding us and stressing us out. But when we pay the bill we stop stressing, not because the bill is paid but because we retire the thought that a bill is due. All you need to do is make your mind up that intoxicants are not an option or even exist for that matter. Surrender the thoughts of them and they wont exist anymore for you.

Cravings only arise when we think about a substance because when we think of something we have experienced before not only do we remember the concept of it but the sensations it gave us as well. Like cigarettes, when we think about them we aren't thinking about how they look we are thinking about how they make us feel and then suddenly a craving arises.

Think of it this way, before you ever knew about or tried alcohol did you ever crave it? Before you ever knew drugs or tried them were they ever necessary to make you happy? Similarly when we think of problems we invoke negative sensations in ourselves causing us to feel like #. If those thoughts went unnoticed how could you ever feel unhappy?

Nothing exists experientially for us unless our mind forms a belief about it first. When we observe something, our mind creates an image of it and stores it as conceptual knowledge such as an apple is red and looks this way. This doesn't bother us. But, say we try an apple and decide it tastes bad now we have created a belief that apples are bad because the mind has familiarized an unpleasant feeling with the concept of them. If the mind isn't at play we become desireless.

Don't get me wrong though, overcoming the minds hold on our attention is the hardest thing in life to do. We naturally become enslaved to our minds, its impossible to avoid but very possible to overcome.

originally posted by: projectbane
a reply to: onequestion

Its all to do with personal responsibility. Nothing more.

I have zero patience for people who turn to drink and drugs and I do not consider them to be of sound mind. I barely trust their opinion on anything and I find them extremely weak willed individuals...which is obvious as they wouldn't turn to substances as a relief, cure or coping mechanism.

Its about knowing right from wrong and having the fortitude to not be a clown!! Take control of your own life and decisions. Very simple.

And AA...seems rather religiously overtoned for what it supposed to achieve. What the hell has a a person who has never existed got to do with cure. Why swap one addiction like drugs for another like god!

I just read your reply in my best "Gunny" voice and tone. Lee Ermy is the best.

My opinion is quite different from that of most people, although it is quite similar to yours. My research, which basically included reading published scientific studies, indicated to me that the vast majority of drug-dependent individuals only stop using a substance when they make the personal choice to stop, and that they do it on their own. A group like AA is cult-like, and is actually detrimental to recovery. Studies have indicated that the relapse rate for AA is so high, and that a person has a much better chance of quitting on their own than of using one of these groups. I will not link to these studies or the commentaries on them, but there have been some done by the medical departments of some Ivy League universities, so we are not talking about someone lying on the internet, as Captain Obvious said in that commercial I saw the other day. Anyone interested in this information, if you cannot find this information on your own, you may message me and I will show you.

I will not rail on AA in this thread, but I firmly believe that any objective person who actually starts researching the subject will draw the same conclusions that I have. So it is absolutely about personal responsibility when it comes to stopping the abuse of any substance. I remember a South Park episode about addiction and AA that was on the other day, and it addressed a different aspect of the problem, which is that by saying you have no control over your addiction, you are basically setting yourself up for failure.

a reply to: JiggyPotamus

Why externalize the solution to a problem that arose internally? Wouldn't it be most reasonable to investigate the solutions internally within ourselves rather than seek an answer outside of its causes? The solution and the problem are two sides of the same coin, like hot and cold. If the problem is fire we must throw water on it to put it out. If the problem is mental addiction then wouldn't the solution be to put the addiction out by disposing of the mind? A plant dies if it is not attentively fed, therefore if a mental habit is starved of attention it inevitably will meet the same fate.

When I suffered from depression I came to the realization that if I didn't feed negative thoughts with attention they ceased to exist and I suddenly discovered I was cured. Prior to this I observed myself on medications and realized how they merely just sedated my consciousness enough to release my attention from my mind but it made me feel like a zombie. After observing this for some time I realized that if I just trained myself to stop focusing on my mind I could completely eradicate the source of the problem and I did.

We all have the power to solve our own issues, to self-diagnose and treat our ailments. We just have a bad habit of believing other people are more capable of taking care of us than ourselves.

Well the laws can be blamed as once someone tries drugs they are already a criminal/outlaw. And if that person doesn't have a good moral foundation then stealing/robbery whatever is just another law they disregarded. Prohibition creates the criminals, not the drug use, in many instances. End prohibition and only have laws that deal with crimes with actual victims.

eta: didn't read thread fully before posting. But as someone who has quit alcohol a little over a year ago and tobacco 1.5 years ago I agree that someone has to want to do something or it will be a constant struggle. Once during a years probation a while when I was supposed to be sober I enjoyed alcohol and pot even more and the two AA meetings I was forced top attend were a joke. The regular attendees had just replaced alcohol with other substances and had their self-esteem ruined by being told they were powerless, when they aren't. But people need to think they will feel better sober and want to see the results rather than having outside influence because that just makes people question if they are doing it for themselves or not, and it has to internal self influence and desire if it is going to bare fruit.

these are all beautiful responses and exactly what I needed to read tonight. You all have helped me very much to understand what is going on with me right now.

a reply to: onequestion

You are wrong........Drugs can make people do things they would not normally do. I take it you have never been in Opiate withdrawal........It is no fun. Alcohol can actually kill you when you stop drinking. Addiction is a disease and yes it is self inflicted.





Imagine you have the worst flu of your life and add on top of the terrible anxiety. Imagine your hair hurting and a constant hot/cold feeling that does not go away. You can not sleep you can not eat you can not focus for even a second. This is opiate withdrawal. I would not wish it on my worst enemy. It is truly torture.

I'm a member of AA and I've been taught to find a power within myself. Victims don't stop drinking. The whole point of the 12 steps is to take responsibility. Sounds like you're spreading some disinformation.

originally posted by: soberlife
I'm a member of AA and I've been taught to find a power within myself. Victims don't stop drinking. The whole point of the 12 steps is to take responsibility. Sounds like you're spreading some disinformation.

Good for you.... Some addictions are harder to kick than others. Alcohol and Opiates are at the top of the list.

originally posted by: projectbane
a reply to: onequestion

Its all to do with personal responsibility. Nothing more.

I have zero patience for people who turn to drink and drugs and I do not consider them to be of sound mind. I barely trust their opinion on anything and I find them extremely weak willed individuals...which is obvious as they wouldn't turn to substances as a relief, cure or coping mechanism.

Its about knowing right from wrong and having the fortitude to not be a clown!! Take control of your own life and decisions. Very simple.

And AA...seems rather religiously overtoned for what it supposed to achieve. What the hell has a a person who has never existed got to do with cure. Why swap one addiction like drugs for another like god!

Have you ever suffered from an addiction?

Sure, people should accept the responsibility for their actions, but it's much more difficult to do so when in the throes of an addiction than when one is clean. I don't believe anybody sets out to be an alcoholic or a heroin addict, and these are powerful substances. Sometimes willpower is not enough. There is such a thing as reduced culpability that comes with addiction, and to break free support can be necessary.

AA and NA help some people, but personally I do not like some of the underlying philosophies behind these groups.

One thing I believe that should be self evident is that addiction is not a criminal issue, but rather a health issue. The actions of a person to support that addiction can certainly be criminal, but to criminalise the use of substances has done nothing to alleviate the blight of addiction. I believe it has compounded the problem.

a reply to: cuckooold

Bravo poster......Bravo. You have a way with words and speak a truth I can relate with. By the way your ATS make me LOL.......Brilliant.

originally posted by: soberlife
I'm a member of AA and I've been taught to find a power within myself. Victims don't stop drinking. The whole point of the 12 steps is to take responsibility. Sounds like you're spreading some disinformation.

Isn't there a step that says you admit you're powerless?

Isn't there a step that says you should hand the problem over to a higher power?

a reply to: Tangerine
I think it says "was powerless." Meaning powerless until one accepts there is a problem.

Don't think it says exactly "hand the problem over" either.

I could be wrong, I haven't been there. Or maybe it's a matter of interpretation.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Tangerine
I think it says "was powerless." Meaning powerless until one accepts there is a problem.

Don't think it says exactly "hand the problem over" either.

I could be wrong, I haven't been there. Or maybe it's a matter of interpretation.

I looked it up.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

This is clearly a religion.

a reply to: Tangerine

See #1 in reference to what I said.
See #2

Religiously based, certainly not "a religion."
"God as we understand him." Seems to provide quite a lot of leeway ( God could be just about anything under those conditions) though I admit, I would have trouble with that one. But you can't deny that many people gain strength of will through their beliefs.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Tangerine

See #1 in reference to what I said.
See #2

Religiously based, certainly not "a religion."
"God as we understand him." Seems to provide quite a lot of leeway ( God could be just about anything under those conditions) though I admit, I would have trouble with that one. But you can't deny that many people gain strength of will through their beliefs.

Note the capital G and the H. Only the Abrahamic God is referred to that way. The deities of other religions are not referred to that way.

Religion is the performance of ritual on behalf of or in obeyance to a supernatural deity. The ten steps are the ritual and within those ten steps it makes clear that one is to turn their will and life over to a supernatural deity, thus acting in obeyance to that deity. Multiple federal courts have ruled that AA is, in itself, a religion (not religiously based).

I don't know how, in this case, one could gain strength of will through AA because it specifically states that one is to turn their will over to God!

a reply to: JiggyPotamus

My research, which basically included reading published scientific studies, indicated to me that the vast majority of drug-dependent individuals only stop using a substance when they make the personal choice to stop, and that they do it on their own

Sums it up for me. You can't do it because someone else wants you too. You have to do it for yourself. And it is a choice.

I've completely forgotten what I was going to say about something else in this thread so it's moot but I'll add good thread, OP.

Some monkeys drink in moderation, some monkeys drink to excess - experts have studied these monkeys and have found that the ratio is the same as in humans.

Are you in control or is the gene in control?

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: Tangerine
I think it says "was powerless." Meaning powerless until one accepts there is a problem.

Don't think it says exactly "hand the problem over" either.

I could be wrong, I haven't been there. Or maybe it's a matter of interpretation.

When I attended my first meeting, I looked at the wall and there was a poster that contained the 12 steps. I though to myself - How is this going to help me? I have bigger problems I need to deal with first, such as getting a job, finding a place to live (I was homeless), etc. When I began the process it seemed as though I was giving up in life, I was to throw all my conceptions of what living was. "Giving in." Keep in mind that these steps are fully explained in 164 pages of literature. In that literature there is a part that says "God is everything, or God is nothing, what was our choice to be?" That was the building block upon which I built a pantheism belief system. I found the "power" within myself.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

I had this ego-centric belief that others never knew what was right for me. I always had to come to my own conclusions. It wasn't until I admitted this, that I became willing to listen to others. Then I could begin to listen to the combined wisdom of those that have successfully beat addiction.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

I told another person every thing I have ever done that has harmed others. Things that could potentially put me in prison. I had to trust the process. As a result of exposing myself, and becoming completely honest with myself, a burden was lifted. The person I shared this information with was my "sponsor" (which is a person that has previously worked the 12 steps, and helps others.) He helped expose the parts of my "victimized" thinking, and helped show me that I had a part of nearly every negative occurrence in my life. I am the one that got the ball rolling. I then found peace in the Universe.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

I had a notebook with a list of names of people who I have harmed in my life, throughout my alcohol and drug addiction. There was much fear that came with this process. I approached people I have held much anger for and I told them "I have made many mistakes in my life, and harmed many people. If I have ever caused you any trouble, I regret the decisions I have made. Is there anything I can do to make it up to you?" - notice how there's no justifications there. There is no "I did this - because you..." I faced my fears, I took responsibility. This has changed the way I look at life, and deal with other people. I was released from the bondage of my resentments.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

See below. This is a copy/paste directly from the literature. It's about self-improvement and is self-explanatory.

“When we retire at night, we constructively review our day. Were we resentful, selfish, dishonest or afraid? Do we owe an apology? Have we kept something to ourselves which should be discussed with another person at once? Were we kind and loving toward all? What could we have done better? Were we thinking of ourselves most of the time? Or were we thinking of what we could do for others, of what we could pack into the stream of life? But we must be careful not to drift into worry, remorse or morbid reflection, for that would diminish our usefulness to others."

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

I pray to the Universe, I believe we are all connected. I receive relief, and a feeling of definite direction. I find peace with this.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I have had an awakening as a result of this program. Not the literature (which plaid a part), but the interaction with other people. I was homeless, hopeless, addicted to alcohol, opiates, and amphetamines. I have raised above where I was before. I have a new understanding of life, which has a direct result on how I live my daily life. I have regained my confidence, my family, my life. I have watched others regain their families, their happiness. I have also watched many people die. I have been sober since July of 2012. To others, it's easy to ridicule the program with judgments. Because to them, it's just a concept of reality. Please understand that for me, and for many others, this program is a method of survival.