The Problem of Evil

Hello again,

Next topic I would like to discuss/other people discuss is the supposed "problem of evil"

So "the idea that God is all powerful, the idea that God is omnipotent, the idea that God is good, the fact there is evil in the world"
and so forth, however you want to word it.

In my class, we have discussed, argued, and just tried to figure out solutions to this and I am currently writing a paper for my final on this specific topic.
We got about a page of solutions from the entire class.
A few to mention are:

Evil and good are correlative

The "best of all possible worlds" solution

Suffering is a tool for moral/spiritual growth etc

My favorite, the idea of perception. There is a thread by a member here, I cannot remember who wrote it but I believe it is called Theistic non-duality; the thread further elaborates on that idea

Classic Karma

I do not even want to say this one but, the idea that evil is the result of human action through free will, thus not caused by God.


Okay so please debate those, throw in your own "solutions" or anything you want

Thank you

-Seth

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

The notion of Evil is the evolution of disgust in sapiens. Something like that maybe.

Do away with the problem of evil entirely, invert it, and come at it from a unique angle. Uitilize empiricism, but gloss over the details in favour of keeping the readers attention. You should get a good grade.

Welcome Seth.

Karma doens't require a 'diety'. It is a natural principal like 'the law of gravity'.

I've always liked Rudolf Steiner's (Anthroposophy) take on evil, it matches up with my perception of reality quite nicely, much better then traditional ideas of good and evil.

Dr. Steiner posits two 'streams' of evil in creation. One he calls Luciferic (he came from a christian background and using christian imagry to illustrate his 'spiritual perceptions') and one he calls Ahrimanic (from the Zoroastrian tradition). The Luciferic stream pulls us into the future (i.e. technology will save us) and the Ahrimanic pulls us back into the past (i.e. if things were like they used to be we be saved). The difficult is that 'Humankind' needs to balance these two natural impulses. Rather like living in the here and now and not the past or the future or the buddhist's 'middle way'.

Evil by this definition is any extreme throught, speech, behavoir, or fealty to either the Luciferic or the Ahrimanic. Both are necessary for 'progress' and balance but too much of either cause pain and suffering.

It works for me in day to day life, it's one of the tools I use to evalute my behavior, etc and the behavior and speech of others. It helps keep me centered and aware of when I'm spinning out to one end of the sprectrum or another.

Why do you keep on outsourcing "evil"? No one forces anyone to do bad things. People just do them...

As someone explained it to me, good and bad deeds are like throwing stones in the water, they both cause ripples wich interact with eachother, so in a way a good deed can have negative consequences and vica versa. Therefor good and bad does not excist.

I've had an experience with duality, rising above it, the event was driven by this main thought: Good and Evil are not neccesarily enemies.

This insight changed alot in my life, like instantly, from one day to another. And at the time I thought that it was quite apparent that my surrounding wich consisted of alot of people since I was at a party were all smiling friendly toward me and some even saying: Positive huh? Without me actually saying something to them.

Very mystical.

What shaped me as a human being and for a great deal made me who I am today was one of my darkest experiences, I have a thread about it, tho after reading that thread you'll probably stop reading a word I say, it does not matter for me.

If an act of Evil has a Good result is it still considered Evil? Or only if it was intended Evil? And vica versa.

Ripples, ripples everywhere.

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

I was musing on the OP and couldn't quite come up with anything brief or pithy.

'Evil' is mostly a social and cultural abstract concept that offers little universal consensus. For instance, several million people regard the actions of the Allies in the Middle East as 'evil.' Those in the West typically do not see those actions as 'evil' and yet many thousands of people have been killed. By extension, it raises further questions of what manner of killing is 'evil' and at which point does 'evil' fade into not evil and then into good?

Is abortion evil? Price scales for life-saving pharmaceuticals? Euthanasia versus murder? Capital punishment? Tobacco companies?

Without a clear consensus on what constitutes an evil act, it's tough to offer a solution.

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

Everyone has the capacity to do good and evil, there is nobody who does just one or the other, also, people do not change, they can only grow.

I don't think believing in god leads people to do good, it is always down to the individual and using religion as an excuse for what goes on is wrong imo and is the sign of a lack of personal accountability and responsibility.

Karma is the flow of energy between us that helps level the playing field a little.

So....having ATS help write your paper. May want to expound a bit with the definitions or give specific points/conflicts that standout if you want a bit more disscussion.

The perception one you said was worthwhile, but what else about it? Or the thread link?

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

When a bear eats a man its just eating. But when a man kills and eats a man is he just eating?

I would say:

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

Good is the existence of humans. Evil is when a human knowingly (though potentially arguably unknowably in cases maybe) executes action/behavior which does the opposite of encouraging/flourishing/promoting/extending human life.

Of course this spectrum gets complex and twisty and messy, in ethical situations, and with the potentially agreeably useful notion of 'tough love' or the ends justifying the means.

There is of course a difference between what a human and/or humans would gather and perceive as the success rate of being a little evil now to create lots of good a bit later, as if there is no God, and no appropriate human justice system, a person will not be punished if their perception was lacking, in an instance such that they perceived and calculated that they must do a little evil now to achieve lots of good a bit later, and it turns out that it was impossible for the lots of good to occur, and so their plan was wrong, but they thought it was right, and even every person thought it was right. This brings up the intriguing ethical concept of intentions, or good intention, and whether an eternally good intentioned person whether relating at all times to a true and proper guide of absolute goodness, can ever be or commit evil.

originally posted by: ImaFungi
a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

Good is the existence of humans. Evil is when a human knowingly (though potentially arguably unknowably in cases maybe) executes action/behavior which does the opposite of encouraging/flourishing/promoting/extending human life.

Of course this spectrum gets complex and twisty and messy, in ethical situations, and with the potentially agreeably useful notion of 'tough love' or the ends justifying the means.

There is of course a difference between what a human and/or humans would gather and perceive as the success rate of being a little evil now to create lots of good a bit later, as if there is no God, and no appropriate human justice system, a person will not be punished if their perception was lacking, in an instance such that they perceived and calculated that they must do a little evil now to achieve lots of good a bit later, and it turns out that it was impossible for the lots of good to occur, and so their plan was wrong, but they thought it was right, and even every person thought it was right. This brings up the intriguing ethical concept of intentions, or good intention, and whether an eternally good intentioned person whether relating at all times to a true and proper guide of absolute goodness, can ever be or commit evil.

You Matrix'd it up for me right there.

a reply to: ImaFungi

I will go with the duality "equal symbiotic good for all" vs "the service for all for few or one". The society that benefits "all souls equally" vs "the power pyramid".

The power pyramid have always been flawed and the structure creates animosity and need of manipulation. Trickle up economics is also trickle up karma. The ones at the top of it are screwed in the end when it is time to settle the karma debt.

adjective
1.
morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:
evil deeds; an evil life.
2.
harmful; injurious:
evil laws.
3.
characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous:
to be fallen on evil days.
4.
due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character:
an evil reputation.
5.
marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.:
He is known for his evil disposition.



So 'evil' as such is defined by society and as societies and cultures change across the planet and time, what we define as 'evil' changes depending on your historical time frame and your cultural practices.

I would say forced circumcision meets the definition of 2. harmful - but is culturally and socially accepted by many across the world which makes it - NOT evil in their eyes (the same could apply to many tribal/cultural) practices.

In Victorian times 'prostitution' was the great evil now it seems to be drugs.

So to sum up evil is a relative term

Haha my papers actually mostly done, I just went with the perception idea and went through other "solutions" and said why or why not they worked and/or compatible with my solution.

These are great, thank you for participating in this discussion everyone.

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

I believe darkness is associated with evil ( Devil ) and light is
associated with good ( God ) for a perfect reason. It is written
that God created light with the sound ( vibration ) of his voice.

The greatest minds of science are only presently confirming all
matter in the universe is vibration. The very definition of a God
is an ultimate being who speaks things into existence. So science
itself tells all to precisely how the simple idea of a superior being
is possible. And showing us the evidence of his existence at the
same time. The workers of science simply refuse to acknowledge
this. Blinding many with darkness therefore.

God has created the light ( made it exist ) to cut away and beat
back the darkness. The darkness wasn't created, it was simply
what is there when nothing exists. So it is with evil. The only
reason God must admit to creating evil, is because he created
those who have chosen to do existence with out God ( good ).
If God were a tyrant this would not have happened. Evil is in us
because we chose the knowledge of it. We have knowledge of
darkness but it does not exist. Problem you say? The problem is
Satan and us and consequently separation from that very moment
when the angels of Heaven rejoiced at God looking over everything
he had made and announcing, " It is good". I could keep going all the
way to the solution, but you know it as well as I. The solution simply
has to be much more important then anything on your list. Because
we are the problem. Obviously. The best part of the list you provided
shows everyone that with out God? There is no solution.

My hope is only that you see a little more clearly, that which is most
important.

SnF

a reply to: Kandinsky

The concept of evil is boring anyways. It wouldn't help any to pick a pithy reply.

a reply to: MyEyesSeeTooClear

If the amount of evil that we presently experience maintained a homeostasis at this level for the rest of our physical existence, could we endure that? Could we find a way to thrive in a world with a broad spectrum of activities, many of which we find personally offensive? Would we be able to more easily tolerate the boredom of a homogeneous civilization?

Where is evil today? Where are the cannibals, the mutilators, the rapists of the past who once tormented sentient beings endlessly just to inflame their own passions to a new sparkly level? Where are the warriors who bathed in blood, who gave as much thought to killing others as we give to ordering lunch at a fast food restaurant?

Christians abhor this world, claiming it has become even more evil because of homosexuality and "Satanic" lyrics.

Pleasures between adults are not evil. Laziness is not truly evil, although these things can become vicious towards our goal of liberty, independence and personal evolution. In my opinion, this is the least evil age humankind has ever known. Although we still have issues, especially in countries like Iraq, these are no longer an everyday phenomenon the world over.

If we begin from this blank canvas and decide to begin again to impose our virtues upon this world, an Aurelian age could blossom around us like a pleasant garden adorning a sacred grotto upon the initiation of springtime. We have before us all of the tools we need to build paradise, and people are still worrying about something so primitive as evil?

originally posted by: MyEyesSeeTooClear
Haha my papers actually mostly done...

Be careful, it's a trap...

'Education' is nothing more than indoctrination and no different from the MSM.

Today's educational 'system' is being used as a mind control technique to dumb down kids into unthinking conformists and zombies who won't ask any questions.

The apostasy rate for Christians in college is somewhere around 70%.

“Education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.” ~ Joseph Stalin

As another man without a high school diploma, I discovered many years ago that the "educated" class is generally not educated at all, it is mis-educated. The whole purpose of American (perhaps all "western") "higher education" is obviously to bring minds into lock step with "The Agenda." As a general rule, the less official American education a person has been exposed to, the greater his/her ration of common sense.

"Education" is Spiritual Suicide

Modern course work in universities does not widen the scope of a student’s knowledge, it narrows it. It doesn’t cultivate wisdom. It cultivates ignorance. It doesn’t teach students to become independent and self-responsible citizens, rather, it conditions them to become more and more dependent upon the system of corporate employment and governmental assistance. It doesn’t encourage free thought and the questioning of external authority, but rather to accept unconditionally the official version of everything.

What today’s universities accomplish is to turn young students with malleable, questioning minds into rigid, unthinking drones destined to become cogs in the machinery of modern society, machinery that has been wholly devised and developed by none other than our aptly named Machine Men. In short, universities are institutional tools that manufacture unthinking and incurious machines – namely, graduates

wadevenden.wordpress.com...

"...the academic meltdown in our public education system is intentional. It asserts that change agents have been working at the Education Department to change curriculum, not to improve teaching but to promote a socialist agenda. Their role is to create schools which will mold obedient citizens who no longer have the knowledge and skills to improve their lot in life, but are dependent on government/multi-national companies' guidance to survive. The system will create imprisoned citizens that will be managed from cradle to grave to serve the needs of the state's managed economy."

Deliberate Dumbing Down of America

Only when all children in public, private and home schools are robotized-and believe as one-will World Government be acceptable to citizens and able to be implemented without firing a shot. The attractive-sounding "choice" proposals will enable the globalist elite to achieve their goal: the robotization (brainwashing) of all Americans in order to gain their acceptance of lifelong education and workforce training-part of the world management system to achieve a new global feudalism.

A 100 yr. Silent War on Education

Never mind that this country's education system is already tailor-made to spread misinformation, entrench mythologies, and promote American exceptionalism to our young children. American history, as taught in schools, is generally nonsense meant to instill and preserve a sense of City-on-a-Hill nationalism, along with healthy doses of tall-tale founding myths, gung-ho militarism, and ethnic cleansing justification in the form of righteous Manifest Destiny. As James W. Loewen explains in his 1995 book Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong, textbooks used to teach our children "leave out anything that might reflect badly upon our national character."

Who's Really Brainwashing Our Children

If it religion, then this could left or right, or the other left or right of way.

You look at Satan or Lucifer, and they were acclaimed to be one of the most loyal and mightiest of all God angels. One story says Satan fell when he gave eve the fruit of forbidden knowledge and mated with Eve, or in Islam for example, Satan refused to bow to Adam, like a jealous child claiming to be a greater creation of then Adam. Or for all we know in the whole Adam story, Satan could of been adams penis.

Good can be just as dangerous, or even more so then evil, for if good is stronger then evil, then it must not commit an evil action what so ever, less it will become evil it self, and perhaps an even greater one.

If I punished, let say pedophiles, rapist, murderers with there own methods of fun, saying " this what you deserve" and delivering their punishment with a force of 10 fold, then am I Evil or Good?

I could let them get a way with it, then I'd be evil. If I punished them to harshest penalty and made them beg for God like I was sent from hell, then I am evil, but I brought justice to them, so I feel good. Or I could waste the time an energy, and let them stay in a cell like , leaving them to rot and think for an eternity, making them beg for forgiveness from the universe and try to let them find forgivness within themselves.. Then I must be totally good?