Sexism, Misogyny and the rise and rise and rise of the internet asshole....

originally posted by: TrenchRun
a reply to: Bluesma
Eventually people are going to wake up to the understanding that before they become men, they are boys. And if you grow up in the west as a boy, you are predominately surrounded by women and learn your foundational perspectives from women.

You are also taught that a girl can hit you and tackle you, but if you push her off of you too hard, you are going to get in trouble. And that it means she "likes you". Which is true but incomprehensible to a boy without male guidance.

Okay, if that is what is happening, then it is another good example of how we should be mindful of the long terms effects of "just words".
I grew up in California, and that was not my experience. I was taught I must never tackle anyone, as it is violence, and violence is "bad". Games like football and rugby are "bad" because of the this. I was also taught that such aggressivity is worse for a female to do than a male, as males can't help it- it is in their hormones. I was taught that Cinderella was the ideal example for a woman- take all abuse and violence that comes your way, with your head bowed and filled with love and grace for your aggressors, and you will one day be rewarded with release from that pain. By either a fairy godmother type or a compassionate prince .

But early education and values vary within our huge country and with time, so that doesn't mean everyone in western countries had the same. (wait, isn't Disney just coming out with another Cinderella film??)

But your point is very relevant, and thought provoking, and I thank you for putting it out there!

Again, I applaud your insight, and am learning from it!

originally posted by: TrenchRun

People don't just take comments like what you said above as true for no reason and especially when their personal experience contradicts it. I didn't because I knew better. People may irrationally apply it in the same way that some women develop a "all men want is sex" mindset when not properly exposed to the varieties of masculinity.

This is linked to my concern- the rise in homes which lack a father figure present (single mothers raising children) mean a few things- moms less present to interact with the kids because she must provide financial means and security, so she is largely absent, and they may know little to nothing of her intimate concerns when it comes to men and relationships.

From experience, single moms are faced with such challenges to support their family that they aren't able to invest themselves in relationships much, and when they do, they keep it hidden from the children to avoid the children getting attached to the man and potentially hurt if it doesn't become committed in long term. So the needs and desires of women remain a mystery even to kids raised by them!

Of course, absent fathers mean boys looking elsewhere for examples to follow.
Which leads me back to why it might be important for them to be exposed to different varieties of masculinity- including ones that speak out of the positive and more valuable insights about females!

originally posted by: HarbingerOfShadows
And quite frankly, what I am seeing here screams of a call to censorship.
Do I agree with them saying such crap?
Heck no.
Do I find it distasteful?
Yes very much so.
But so long as they do not act on those threats or even set to groundwork to act upon said threats.
It's just words.

Just words....

Ok

Thanks for your considered opinion.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What I don't get - and its evident from your post here - is this;

What upsets you about the concept of people acting in a civilised manner?

originally posted by: Bluesma
But early education and values vary within our huge country and with time, so that doesn't mean everyone in western countries had the same. (wait, isn't Disney just coming out with another Cinderella film??)

It is highly regional I agree.

There are also the invisible girls who were being given the same signals the invisible boys were... and I feel for them because they are the ones who were desperately trying to be what the "nice boys" said they wanted, but never getting credit. Waiting for that fairy godmother or prince. When I tried to be that prince I failed, but they at least got confirmation that what they were looking for is out there... just a little confused as well, heh.

I'm grateful to have had as many opportunities including my current relationship to give them credit because I know what it's like to struggle out of the "what they say" vs "what they do" dynamic without turning cold to them.

originally posted by: neformore
What upsets you about the concept of people acting in a civilised manner?

I think all he wants is for you to be able to say something like this...

originally posted by: neformore
I personally have a baseball bat I would like to share with their head.

Without fear of anyone preemptively treating you as a violent offender for suggesting physical violence is a legitimate response to words.

You know, the way tony wants people to preemptively predict you might actually act on that thought.

originally posted by: TrenchRun

I think all he wants is for you to be able to say something like this...

originally posted by: neformore
I personally have a baseball bat I would like to share with their head.

But they're only words....right?

a reply to: neformore

What I don't get - and its evident from your post here - is this;

What upsets you about the concept of people acting in a civilised manner?

First I am not upset. Further, I am not upset nor against the concept of people acting in a civili[z]ed manner. This isn't a straw man contest.

I’ll state it explicitly so you no longer need to invent what is “evident”. Sitting at a computer, reading and writing opinions, no matter how foul and stupid the content, does not constitute uncivilized behaviour. What is uncivilized behaviour is limiting those freedoms so that people who often confuse online and offline interaction, who make issues out of non-issues simply because they're offended, can sit, type and read “safely”—or in other words, read and write only what they want to, a freedom they’ve had this entire time.

If someone threatens to rape another or otherwise harm another on the internet, that is the extent of their reason and personality, showing everyone who happens to read such nonsense how inadequate the person who wrote it actually is. It is in my opinion that such stupidity should be shamed, should evoke pity, not be vilified in such a way that people begin to fear it and make it a great deal more powerful than it really is. It risks watering down real threats, real rape, real uncivilized behaviour, real violence, so that people can go through life blissfully un-offended by what they themselves come across on the internet.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: tony9802

Take for example child molestors or prostitute killers, and the type of information they might look up to find and control someone..the searching on the internet may not be illegal, but the intention behind the searching is. Policing thought and intention, in those cases, isn't always necessarily a bad thing in my opinion, but that would be a whole new thread obviously altogether.

If it were up to me, I would use bona fide mind readers and serious psychics to control criminal conduct pre-emptively..that would not amount to mind control in any way, at least not in my opinion; Stopping filthy polluted minds from committing vile, repulsive crimes would actually, in my opinion, be a good thing.

This is called tyranny, tony. I fear we do not have much more to say to each other.

A society that has become so uncivilized, that it accepts and tolerates cruel forms of crimes either against women or children or anyone, would need to be subjected to tyranny for the sake of correction.

I remember that movie Clockwork Orange, and I remember how they had to reform and re-educate the delinquent in that film.. I actually rather liked the disciplinarian punishment he received. If people are unable to follow simple laws of respect towards one another, then by golly, bring in the tyrannical state.

I agree with you though, we, for all intents and purposes, no longer really have much more to say to each other..so cheers mate;

a reply to: Bluesma

Those are excellent points..


I sense quite a bit of rebelliousness, fear, and cowardice coming from the men here throughout the thread.. it's actually astonishing, disappointing, and very sad. The boys on the thread here do not seem to understand what is expected of them, either by other men, or by women.


You make some very good points as well, concerning matrimony, and how it's once one has married and actually developed a family that true maturity sets in, creating men of boys, and ladies of gals. Perhaps many of the posters here on the thread are actually quite young, and have actually yet to develop concrete ideas about their identities, about becoming male, about becoming responsible fathers, husbands etc.



Some of the boys writing here, really do not understand the gravity of the topic, and chances are they have never even delved into any literature concerning women's rights or feminist thought.. you can see by how they choose to respond that these are issues unimportant to them and their stagnant young minds.. Hopefully they will grow out of this condition, and even perhaps one day become healthy individuals, who will actually be fit for society;

originally posted by: neformore
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What I don't get - and its evident from your post here - is this;

What upsets you about the concept of people acting in a civilised manner?

I don't think he actually cares very much for civility..what he cares about is Freedom, and being able to maintain and preserve freedom, at all cost.. For freedom to function properly it must be honored by it's surrounding cultures of respect and civility, and I do believe he gravely misses the point on that one..

And really...........
Misogyny? Sexism?
Doesn't that require a little more than just talking crap on the internet?

If only it was that easy to diagnose people with real problems.........

They're assholes to be sure.
But real misogynists?
You kinda need more information to make such a judgment call.

originally posted by: tony9802
I remember that movie Clockwork Orange, and I remember how they had to reform and re-educate the delinquent in that film.. I actually rather liked the disciplinarian punishment he received.

"The film made it easy for readers of the book to misunderstand what it was about, and the misunderstanding will pursue me until I die. I should not have written the book because of this danger of misinterpretation..."

a reply to: tony9802
That was lovely. Perhaps they are familiar with human rights AND history and what happens when words are treated the same as actions. Given the mannerisms you've expressed in your post, I do not believe you would last very long under the regime you are eager to see.

The fundamental question when contemplating power is this: How would I feel about this power if it's in the hands of someone who disagrees with me.

There is a difference between saying "treating words the same as actions is going to make the situation worse" and "supporting bad behavior".

originally posted by: neformore
But they're only words....right?

Exactly. Thus I don't feel any need to warn anyone that you might hit them with a baseball bat.

originally posted by: tony9802

I sense quite a bit of rebelliousness, fear, and cowardice coming from the men here throughout the thread.. it's actually astonishing, disappointing, and very sad. The boys on the thread here do not seem to understand what is expected of them, either by other men, or by women.

Why should men have expectations placed upon them, but not women as well? I was taught to treat people with respect, not only 50% of the population. It seems you were taught the latter.

You make some very good points as well, concerning matrimony, and how it's once one has married and actually developed a family that true maturity sets in, creating men of boys, and ladies of gals. Perhaps many of the posters here on the thread are actually quite young, and have actually yet to develop concrete ideas about their identities, about becoming male, about becoming responsible fathers, husbands etc.

Utter nonsense.

One doesn't need to have a wife/husband or children to "mature" as a human being. Time, life experiences and challenges do that. Many people choose not to get married nor have children, this has nothing to do with maturation.

Some of the boys writing here, really do not understand the gravity of the topic, and chances are they have never even delved into any literature concerning women's rights or feminist thought.. you can see by how they choose to respond that these are issues unimportant to them and their stagnant young minds.. Hopefully they will grow out of this condition, and even perhaps one day become healthy individuals, who will actually be fit for society

It is obvious to anyone here that you are trying to get a rise out of the men in this thread by continually calling them "boys" when you know nothing about them.

Actually, yours is the "unhealthy" mindset that needs to change if the welfare of humans (and not just 50% of the population) is to be bettered.

a reply to: TrenchRun

You hit the nail on the head Tony, as usual.

originally posted by: tony9802
I sense quite a bit of rebelliousness, fear, and cowardice coming from the men here throughout the thread.. ...The boys on the thread here do not seem to understand what is expected of them, either by other men, or by women.

I am not so much interested in trying to analyze the individuals in this discussion, as stimulating thought and exchange on the subject matter. I do not wish to push things into personal defense-offense battles- that tends to kill off the creative exchange. Expectations....well, I think many of us are getting very used to all sorts of behavior in this medium, so don't expect much. Though we, as a community, might have something to gain from examining and analyzing what seems to be beneficial and what doesn't.

You make some very good points as well, concerning matrimony, and how it's once one has married and actually developed a family that true maturity sets in, creating men of boys, and ladies of gals.

To be honest, I don't really have a clear idea of what that means. Though I do think that long term relationships (whether married or not), and parenthood, do stimulate one to perhaps consider different values, and to gain deeper understanding of the other sex.
But in my focus, it is not so important that everyone do these things, but that all ways of being and living be represented and visible. People with their thoughts and views (which I don't really feel can be lumped together here as being the same just because they are not in agreement with you) have the right to be heard and seen. I simply would like to encourage others with different views and thoughts to ALSO speak out and be visible. To reveal different facets and possibilities for observers.

Granted, that is a difficult endeavor to make it work. It's the kind of thing that pushes each to fight the natural slide into hypocrisy and self contradiction. How to speak out about "being rude"- without being rude? How to speak out about being disrespectful, without being disrespectful? How to speak out against prejudice without being prejudicial?

This is a huge hurdle, it takes a lot of mental and emotional effort, at remaining balanced, between receptivity, projectivity, and focus.

Honestly? I think it is more difficult than jumping into personal mudslinging and trying to be "top dog", or fleeing into victimization mind set. I don't "expect" anyone to do it, and I know it is extremely challenging, so I don't want to judge too harshly anyone who doesn't try, or doesn't succeed. I don't always succeed.

But making the effort.... I personally would like to encourage that.
After that, everyone does what he wants or can. We're all human.

The Fairness doctorine

Some people here are saying that its unfair that the behaviour of men towards women is singled out in this thread and not the other way round.

I say thats a total load of BS

Why?

Because the thread is about men be assholes towards women. "Fairness" in this case doesn't come into it.

Equality doesn't come into it. Thats not what the thread is about.

Simply put, if anyone thinks that because they have a penis, its ok to threaten to rape and kill women for "lulz" or because you are "trolling" or that its fine to do so because you can be "anonymous" on the internet, then they are an asshole, who is acting like an animal and is incapable of being a part of a civilised society.

Regardless of whether they follow up on the threat or not.

And if they try and argue that doing so is their entitlement, because of "freedom of speech", then they are simply not intelligent enough to understand the responsibility that actual freedom of speech entails them in terms of contributing to the aforementioned civilised society.

Its nothing to do with "fairness". Its to do with personal responsibilityfor your own actions.

originally posted by: neformore
The Fairness doctorine

Some people here are saying that its unfair that the behaviour of men towards women is singled out in this thread and not the other way round.

I say thats a total load of BS

Why?

Because the thread is about men be assholes towards women. "Fairness" in this case doesn't come into it.

Equality doesn't come into it. Thats not what the thread is about.

Ok, so you only want to highlight the mistreatment of women at the hands of men, present it as a pandemic and ignore all other cases of negative behaviour?

Can I start a thread about men that have been the victims of emotional manipulation by women, present it as a pandemic and ignore all other cases of negative behaviour? I wonder how that would be received...

Simply put, if anyone thinks that because they have a penis, its ok to threaten to rape and kill women for "lulz" or because you are "trolling" or that its fine to do so because you can be "anonymous" on the internet, then they are an asshole, who is acting like an animal and is incapable of being a part of a civilised society.

Misdirection, much? It's an emotionally-provocative insult designed to get a rise out of the victim. The same way as I have witnessed female gamers taunting men about the size of their manhood, or in an extreme case, threatening to slice off their penis because they got dominated in an online game!

And if they try and argue that doing so is their entitlement, because of "freedom of speech", then they are simply not intelligent enough to understand the responsibility that actual freedom of speech entails them in terms of contributing to the aforementioned civilised society.

So because sensitive, insecure individuals take offence and feel threatened by emotionally-provocative insults we should just silence everyone to be safe?

Its nothing to do with "fairness". Its to do with personal responsibilityfor your own actions.

Are words necessarily considered actions?

a reply to: neformore

Oh so you mean this is a sexist thread against men.
You see, the attitude can cut both ways.

As for your insults to other's intelligence.
I think you'd find that you even need to sink to that level makes you more like the people you are talking about than anyone speaking contrary to you.
If you even tried for a iota of critical thought that is.

You need to read all of this article, by a more even minded feminist:

We all know the salutary tale about the boy who cried wolf: his repeated but baseless entreaties became so familiar to the townsfolk that they ultimately ignored his cries for help when he actually needed it.

The fable’s lesson is a simple one — if you make a habit of crying victim for no reason, people grow desensitised to your alarms and will eventually become deaf to your calls for help.

This lesson seems to be lost on some young women today: they’re quick to label any ridicule or criticism of women as sexist. But is this really misogyny? Is sexism really rife in today’s public discourse or are these women simply crying wolf?

Most people, regardless of gender, search for the reasons that underlie their disappointments and failures. We wonder whether it’s because we’re too fat, thin, young, old, plain, attractive, disciplined, spontaneous, reserved or exuberant. Did we not put enough effort into something, or did we obsess and overdo it? Did we misread a room, a person, a set of instructions? Or read too much into it?

Whatever the true reason, we latch on to the one that best fits our world-view. Our partner may have left because we’re needy, possessive and jealous, but if we’re obsessed with our weight we may think it was because we’re fat. We might not have got a coveted job because we’re inexperienced or have the wrong skills, but if we consider sexism to be rampant we may think misogyny was the cause.

MORE AT SOURCE

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Hi DarkGhost.. Raising a family is very important in understanding what it is to be a "Man.." I'm sorry my comments have upset you as much as they have.


I do understand though, that generally speaking in America at least, there is very little or less value placed on the "Family" or "The Family Unit," This might be part of the reason why there is this disturbing deterioration of traditional values in the U.S.


The other point that I find interesting in your response revolves around the notion of that other "50% of the population," ladies that is; What expectations exactly do you have of women that you don't already generally see being met? It seems as though there is a void perhaps somewhere in your life in regards thereto..or perhaps I simply struck an harmonized chord in your heart..

Don't mean to offend, I'm just having a little bit of trouble understanding where your expectational disenchantment is coming from..