Sexism, Misogyny and the rise and rise and rise of the internet asshole....

originally posted by: neformore
Feminism is not an excuse for men acting/behaving like animals, threatening rape and violence.

And anyone who think it is - frankly - needs to rethink their place in society

No, it isn't. I would think it to be a good argument for ostracism (right of association, and all that), but not an excuse for assaults or threats.

That just muddies the waters, and masks any aggression from the other side, which gets overwhelmed and subsumed in the outcry against the troglodytes - they give their opponents all the ammunition they need, for free.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: nenothtu

My point is, I don't care if " a great many of them" don't mind, if any of them don't want to wear it, but are forced to because they are women. Then that is oppression.
I can see what you are trying to say, that if there a great many women there that think women should be forced to wear them, I should acccept that but I disagree.

Look, we've had this discussion before.

There are women who feel wearing a burka is their choice and have no problem with it, just as there are women who are fine with not being educated as a part of their religious beliefs. It is not for you to make those choices for them because you think it's oppressive.

People don't always choose how you or I would have them choose, and it isn't for you or I to make those decisions for them. After all, why are we so superior that we can make those choices for other people? How do you know their way of doing it isn't the better way? And if it doesn't hurt them and they aren't hurt for making the choice or hurting others for making it, they should be free to choose.

So, how much harm comes in the burka if you decide you want to wear it? Real harm.

Now, we can talk about those who don't want to wear the burka and are forced to, but that's another discussion.

Feminism is not an excuse for men acting/behaving like animals, threatening rape and violence.

And anyone who think it is - frankly - needs to rethink their place in society

Feminism isn't until you get to that brand of feminism that sets up women to objectify themselves by hooking up and taking "power" over their sexuality.

Basically, when a woman does that, she is becoming what every man more or less wants in the worst kind of woman - a cheap hook up who isn't worthy of respect. There is no taking power over that.

I don't get it? Everyone gets crapped on on the internet, this is nothing new. Since I first started using it back in the days of Bell Atlantic and early ICQ messaging, I have always noticed that women get treated differently than males do. However it isn't always negative, and it's inherent to human nature, there is nothing anyone can do about it. Women just get treated differently than males do, offline and online, and that will continue to happen while one has body parts and chemicals the other doesn't. Just as there are men online that will not hesitate to spew hatred or intolerance at someone being a woman, there are men that will go out of their way to move heaven and earth for someone they just met online simply because they are a woman. I'm not saying women are deserving of the intolerance, NO ONE is, but EVERYONE receives it, not just women or people of a specific age, race, or nationality. The internet is not like early-40s Nazi Germany where you are forced to wear a Yellow badge, you are completely anonymous to most everybody until you choose to reveal details about yourself.

The two are constantly fighting and every now and then there is a movement composed of women (and some men) who take advantage of both sides for their own purposes. Then you have the people that don't care, because in all honesty it is a non-issue. There is nothing forcing you to participate in online activities in which you feel abused, and unless your physical life is in danger, there is no one to blame but yourself.

This whole online drama reminds me of 'To Catch a Predator', where the guy would obviously be looking for underage sex and has every opportunity to stop digging his grave and simply turn off his IM or go watch pornography but he instead goes and gets himself locked up and deemed a child sex offender. The only difference is that now the guys are mostly women, and now there are prison riots.

a reply to: ketsuko

I feel like I am having to repeat the same thing over and over again, my opinion is that women should have a choice about what they wear. I believe being forced to wear one because you are a women is oppression.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: nenothtu

And when you put your hands on your hips and say "I rule the roost" you cannot do it without laughing! hahaha

I AM THE BOSS, YOUNG LADY!

After all, you said I could be...

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: amazing

In fact we only gave women in the United states the right to vote several decades ago. How backwards of a society are we.

Oh. My. God!

They've given women the right to VOTE? Why was I not informed of this sooner?

Sweet Jesus! There goes the neighborhood!

Feminism is a must and extreme feminism is so important. Long live all the feminists, Feman, P-Riot and everyone else in the front lines fighting for equality.

Everyone opposing this? Go back in your caves. You'll be extinct soon, the rest of us are evolving.

Now, on a serious note: how is what "feminists" have to say about men NOT "sexist"? Sexism is built into the very term itself - "feminism". It's a chauvenism that pulls no punches and is not generally afraid to let you know where it stands, loudly.

I dare not say "shrilly", for fear of starting a "masculinist" movement. We have quite enough chauvenisitc "ists" hanging around already as it is.

Just as food for thought - turning one's self into what they decry (in this case, "sexists") is possibly not the best form of "evolving" - so we'll keep a place warm for them, right near the fire in our cave, whenever they're ready to come in.

it's just the human thing to do.

But you're missing the point. Women aren't treated as equal to men in many places in our society and world. That's the bottom line. Some feminists may take to far or be offensive or whatever but the whole term and movement and underlying reason is equality. That equality and the fight for it are the point and the main thing.

a reply to: ketsuko

So because a woman might like to have no strings attached sex with another consenting adult she becomes unworthy of respect? You don't have to objectify yourself to have casual sex. It can be fun and a great experience.

originally posted by: neformore

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

Anyway, blame feminists for this because they have turned men against women because of the lies, animosity, attacks against men and even being so calculated as to create programs where they concentrate on trying to effeminate young boys, so that they will be more controlled by women when they get to be an adult. Why not let a man just be a man?

When was the last time a guy told you on the net that you were so stupid he felt the need to attempt to track you down and rape (sodomise) you and maybe kill your family as well because of your opinion?

Of course, that would ok, because it would just be a man being a man, right?

You say you've apparently encountered this online? I've encountered this (without the rape) when walking down the street in certain areas. I encountered this during High school and middle school. But of course since this is online it must be a bigger dilemma. There isn't any way for anyone to track you down online unless you purposefully have a public stockpile of readily made info on where you live, and if you do have that kind of information laying around then how can you not expect things like that to be said? They are said in the real world on a daily basis, just because you may not hear these words in your physical reality doesn't mean that the internet is some bizarro shadow of the real world where no one would have said something like that if it were moderated.

a reply to: WilsonWilson
Apologies, past few pages have been going fast, and I missed that post apparently.

a reply to: WilsonWilson

Is there even one young woman who feels as if she HAS to wear a bikini at the beach who is uncomfortable doing so?

THAT is oppression too! Its a cultural oppression but its oppression just the same!

Same for many styles of dress around the globe! Do you REALLY think every fad that comes into existence every women in society really cares to wear?

Wearing a burka because its culturally acceptable is no different than wearing a bikini at the beach because its considered culturally acceptable! Oppression can be in both, or neither... depending upon the woman.

But concern yourself with your world, and not the cultures of others just because of what YOUR perceptions happen to be!

If you want to keep women from being oppressed, work on your own neighborhood and don't worry about other women half way across the globe... you cannot understand another culture you have never lived in!

And if you want to end oppression... teach young women to be whatever they are comfortable being.. to just be themselves!

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: nenothtu

But I haven't tried to force my morals, values or culture on to anybody.
I protested against one poster telling another that because they weren't a Muslim woman, they couldn't talk about Muslim women. And I stand by that, so if that's what you mean about me wanting to force my mores on people then so be it. I was expressing an opinion, which I agree we all have a right to do. I just disagreed with hers.

No, you are using them as a negative example of what is wrong with the world in general, and men in particular, and Muslims in extra-particular. That's not "force" per se, not with guns and tanks, but it's an imposed judgement - just a different sort of imposition, I suppose.

Of course it is your right to express an opinion, just as others have the right to disagree with it, and attempt to explicate WHY they disagree. What you are in effect saying is "I disagree with her opinion, and I disagree with that because Muslims are bad - just look how they have a culture that doesn't agree with mine for confirmation of their badness."

I take a different route - I have to decide if they are worthy of respect, and go from there - accepting them as they are - or if they are worthy of disrespect, and cease interaction with them. Arguing the merits or demerits of "their" culture vs "mine" is a losing gamble.

Listening to how other folks think is a good start. I once had a conversation with a Pakistani Muslim who had spent 20 years gaining his US citizenship. The topic got around to sharia law (this was back when that was a hot topic), and rather than judging, I listened to him. I asked what he thought of sharia, without injecting my own biases into it, and here is what he said "I think the sharia would have benefits for the US - but if it were ever implemented here, i would have to move. I won't live under it. The bad far outweighs the good".

One will take that conversation and claim that "Muslims want to implement sharia in America!". Another, perhaps, might take something entirely different from that statement. It may just be a matter of what they WANT to hear, and how they can use that to promote their own agenda.

I don't support using people, as a general rule.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: WilsonWilson

Is there even one young woman who feels as if she HAS to wear a bikini at the beach who is uncomfortable doing so?

THAT is oppression too! Its a cultural oppression but its oppression just the same!

What? You mean peer pressure? It's called peer pressure and I'm sure you were taught about how to deal with that when you were 12 years old, or even less.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: nenothtu

Yes I think politics at university are more radical than normal. I would describe myself as a feminist, but to be honest it doesn't come up in my day to day interactions, because most people I know share my opinions on equality.
I do have a male friend who fumes about the dress code at work being more lax for women, but I agree with him so it's all happy times.

Oh no!

NONONONONONONO!

You think the dress code is too lax? If your recommendations were followed, would that not be oppression of those women, dictating what they have to wear?

Say it ain't SO!

a reply to: nenothtu

You just show that you haven't read my posts. I don't believe all Muslims are represented by some Muslim countries that oppress women. I dont believe all Muslims are bad people. I have disagreed with one Muslim lady on here about the fact that non muslims can discuss Muslim countries that oppress women, and I stand by that.

Well here's my (very long) response on the subject, I'm a female who believes in equality between all, but I've been treated most of my life like an inferior to someone, mostly males. I was bullied relentlessly in elementary by the boys (I either had cooties or was told I was fat and ugly), back then I fought back, turned around and called them names or got violent when they pushed me over the edge. Didn't really solve anything, it just made them do it more because they were getting a reaction out of me. They thought it was hilarious.

Skip forward a few years and I started dating this guy who thought that he was more intelligent then me because he was male, I should be skinny, dress in a certain way, listen to his opinions and not my own etc. I argued with him, stood up for myself and told him that treating me like that was going to make me leave him eventually, he didn't really care, kept trying to make me feel sh** about myself so I left him.

I've realized over the years that as much as I want people to treat each other equally and fairly, and I try to teach them that, if they don't want to learn they won't. I've found that most of the time when someone's trying to make you feel like sh** about yourself, they feel like sh** about themselves and want someone to feel the same, or they lack control in their life and being cruel to others is their way of controlling one small thing in their lives. Or that's what they were raised to be like. Those boys that bullied me? Most of their dad's treated their moms and them like crap, making them feel small, stupid and insignificant. My ex? He admitted after we broke up that he hates his life.

Now I feel for those people who say cruel things to others. They have a whole lot of hate and negativity in their life and just want to make someone understand how they feel. It's kinda sad. So now, I just don't let it get to me, that's their choice and their lives. They can keep their darkness and I'll let that darkness just pass over me.

I play a lot of call of duty now, I'm pretty good at it, and the stuff guys say to me on there is what I've been hearing my whole life, "you must be fat and ugly if your on here instead of hanging out with real people" "youre just wanting to get f**ked, aren't you" "You probably use cheats to win, don't you b****" well jeez! What's a girl suppose to do when she hears that? What I do? I laugh, and go along with it, because really? They don't know me, I know it's not true so I'm not going to get mad and let them win. Even if I tell them that what they're saying isn't ok, it's hurtful, they don't care, they want it to hurt.

Best thing anyone ever said to me? Well I had my headset on one night and was talking to my dog. I get a message from this guy a little later asking me, "do you f**k your dog?" At first I was pissed and ridiculously offended, then I realized, that's what he wanted me to feel. So what did I do. I started to troll him. I kept sending him messages like, "want to play a game?" "It's called the I troll you until you say sorry game" "you're trying to insult me because you probably feel like crap about you life" "good luck!" He responded, "are you a b****?" My response, "nope, I'm just a female who's not going to let that slide, nor am I going to stoop to your level" I kept this up for a while, never once saying anything really cruel, and guess what? He apologized

a reply to: undo

A lot of girls wait until they are adult to speak out.
All I know is they always make excuses like the one your friend used.
I know you can't know anyone no matter how much you think you do so I would be careful of thinking you can be sure he did nothing to this girl.

a reply to: nenothtu

Lol no I agree with him that the interpretation of business casual is too lax.
I believe a workplace can have a business dress code without oppressing anybody.

If you look for it on the Internet you will find it

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: nenothtu

Probably because the movement started.in era when women were repressed and it was seen as a battle, women rights in a society where they didn't have them. The suffrage movement had a better name.

Feminists will never move beyond that until they... move beyond that. Until that day comes, they will be no less "sexist" than the male chauvinists they decry.

ETA: had to change "women" to "feminists" - guilty as charged of over-generalization, even if I had to charge myself with it.