Sexism, Misogyny and the rise and rise and rise of the internet asshole....

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Well I think your bigotry is showing, you think western woman in your mind and then tar me with your preconceptions.
Arranged marriages are fine if both parties agree to it. I knew a Muslim girl at university who was happy for her parents to arrange her marriage, and that's fine that was her CHOICE, I know Muslim women that cover up, and that fine because that's their CHOICE. When there is no choice then that is bad, that's oppression.

originally posted by: Leonidas

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

Anyway, blame feminists for this because they have turned men against women because of the lies, animosity, attacks against men and even being so calculated as to create programs where they concentrate on trying to effeminate young boys, so that they will be more controlled by women when they get to be an adult. Why not let a man just be a man?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...hold up there hoss.

"They" haven't "turned men against women". Your perception of what they are has turned YOU against women.

Look at that. You have said that you are against women. Think about that statement at it's core, what it really means.

And feminists have no interest in making "effeminate young boys'. Good lord, anything but. But mothers AND fathers have a responsibility to make sure that our sons learn how to treat women with respect.

Seriously, what experiences have you been through that honestly make you think your statement represents reality. YOUR experience. The "feminists" you are describing sounds like a ball-busting lesbian diesel-dyke caricature straight out of Central Casting.

My blonde haired, blue-eyed "girly-girl" wife who loves heels and dresses and make-up and me holding the door for her is a Feminist of the first order. Men have driving the wagon for millennia. They are trying to right the balance. They are standing up for themselves.

And...get this...not all feminists agree on what issues are the most important. They don't even all agree with each other or have a secret handshake. Or how to go about it. Many of them actually have their own ideas about what is right and what is fair.

Personally, I find a woman with confidence pretty sexy. Even with her high-fallutin' uppity ways and stubborn ideas!

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Look at that. You have said that you are against women. Think about that statement at it's core,

Please refer me to where I said that "I am against women". I don't recall saying that, and it's nowhere in my posts. I said feminists have turned "men against women"...the's the men they are talking about in the initial post. Geez, it's called summarizing or generalizing in association with the topic...do I really need to spoon feed everyone with razor sharp precision text for those who can't read between the lines...or view a statement in context of the post we are discussing...we have done this for many years as a people, not sure why you can't assume an inference. As far as the war on boys at a young age to make the more effeminate?

Book: Christina Hoffman Summers
The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men
Vice and Virtue in Everyday Life

Christina used to be a feminist until she saw what they were really up to, and decided to help the men.:

Source


Feminism "shaming" young boys for being taught to be boys

a reply to: nenothtu

But I haven't tried to force my morals, values or culture on to anybody.
I protested against one poster telling another that because they weren't a Muslim woman, they couldn't talk about Muslim women. And I stand by that, so if that's what you mean about me wanting to force my mores on people then so be it. I was expressing an opinion, which I agree we all have a right to do. I just disagreed with hers.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: nenothtu

Might be because feminism is a political ideology that is very diverse, as any political or even religious ideology can be. Not every Conservative shares the same views, not every Christian, not every Muslim, people are varied.

Could be. Like I said, the ones I dealt with were on college campuses and the surrounding areas, and college campuses are notorious for leftward swings, so it could be that I just had the ill luck to run across a few totalitarian gaggles. Maybe they ought to be called "female supremacists" instead of "feminists" - I don't know.

I tend to avoid interaction with anyone professing "feminism" out here in the real world (not so much online, I guess), mostly on strength of those experiences... I like my blood pressure just fine, right where it's at. If I want to raise it, I'll eat more salt.

a reply to: nenothtu

Yes I think politics at university are more radical than normal. I would describe myself as a feminist, but to be honest it doesn't come up in my day to day interactions, because most people I know share my opinions on equality.
I do have a male friend who fumes about the dress code at work being more lax for women, but I agree with him so it's all happy times.

originally posted by: amazing

In fact we only gave women in the United states the right to vote several decades ago. How backwards of a society are we.

Oh. My. God!

They've given women the right to VOTE? Why was I not informed of this sooner?

Sweet Jesus! There goes the neighborhood!

Feminism is a must and extreme feminism is so important. Long live all the feminists, Feman, P-Riot and everyone else in the front lines fighting for equality.

Everyone opposing this? Go back in your caves. You'll be extinct soon, the rest of us are evolving.

Now, on a serious note: how is what "feminists" have to say about men NOT "sexist"? Sexism is built into the very term itself - "feminism". It's a chauvenism that pulls no punches and is not generally afraid to let you know where it stands, loudly.

I dare not say "shrilly", for fear of starting a "masculinist" movement. We have quite enough chauvenisitc "ists" hanging around already as it is.

Just as food for thought - turning one's self into what they decry (in this case, "sexists") is possibly not the best form of "evolving" - so we'll keep a place warm for them, right near the fire in our cave, whenever they're ready to come in.

it's just the human thing to do.

originally posted by: neformore

So why aren't these assholes rounded on/drowned out/stepped on? Why aren't the normal guys - the decent ones - the thinkers, the responsible ones, why aren't we reporting this in droves? Why aren't we acting like a society should do?

Because it's the internet. Half the people you mentioned want the anonymity for the sole purpose of being able to continue saying what they do and "get away with it". I heard that Obama is directing the FCC in the direction of treating the internet in the same way they treat common, everyday utilities. Instead of having Internet Service Providers, you will have another utility company along the lines of the electric company. If that comes to pass I think anonymity, or at least the illusion of it, will become a thing of the past. As it stands now, it almost takes a court order for a legitimate company to track someone down starting with the basic IP info, while a black hatter can find you in 10 seconds. They can also hack your system when you start to out people like that. It's the E version of retribution against a whistleblower.

In my opinion, that would be a good thing. Making anonymity a thing of the past that is. There is no such thing as total anonymity on the internet anyway, nor should there be. Only the illusion of it. This illusion helps drive people to say things they wouldn't say in real life. They are driven by the falsehoods that they will never be outed and that freedom speech is an unpunishable act worldwide. People like this, IMO, are scum for 2 reasons: They treat women like dirt and they are taking a service, the internet, and devolving the intent of it. The internet is like our brains in a way. There is so much potential for evolution by the way we use it, but we piss on that by letting people say the things that hurt, offend and even drive some people to suicide. All because they think they're anonymous. They're scum.

The internet is a privilege, not a God given right like the access to fresh water is. There needs to be more safeguards in place to help ensure that these internet assholes you speak of don't go off the deep end and start saying things that are flat-out illegal, (phone harassment is illegal.....is internet harassment the same?) because the internet has become an integral and indispensable part of our lives. Therefor, someone needs to do something to make sure the "fun" parts of the internet stay that way so business can continue without a hitch.

Personally, I could care less if they strip away my anonymity and make everything I do online available for ANYone to track down. It's pretty much that way anyway. On here, some people don't know who I am while others do. I'm going to say what I say about women regardless because I like them and I believe men need to treat them better online and off. I do my part.

Now, with work, anonymity would actually make my job more dangerous than it already is. I started doing what I do before the internet and the danger involved was what it was. Now, with the option of my movements being available for anyone to see, I can see how much safer I am and I welcome that. It would be stupid for me to disregard all the safety options I have for the sake of internet privacy. They could find my body in a ditch 3 days after the fact, but dammit, at least I had my privacy. I don't think so.

I mentioned those last two paragraphs so you can better understand where I'm coming from when I say.......strip away the anonymity any way you need to. It would be better for everyone in every aspect of the net. Freedom of speech is guaranteed in the U.S. Anonymity is not.

I think this thread really illustrates one of the problems with the way human brains work. We always have a need to label, and group things, and this inevitably includes other humans. No matter how much throughout my life I have fought against it, I still notice myself after a time falling into it.

Speaking from a man's point of view obviously, there are things radical feminists say about men that piss me off. "We have to teach men not to rape" for example. In my mind that implies that all men are animalistic in nature, just waiting for that one chance to get to rape and get away with it. Nevermind that a vast majority of men go through their whole life without ever raping anyone. That pisses me off.

I keep hearing about this thing I supposedly possess called male privilege. It implies that I didn't get to where I am through my own sweat,blood and hard work. It was handed to me because I have a penis. This pisses me off. And I push back, against groups I perceive to be pushing them, and end up doing the same thing.

It happens with race, nationality, religion, language and even sex. Most people make no attempt to control it, and I have yet to meet a single person out there, that has tried to control it, and succeeded.

a reply to: nenothtu

Probably because the movement started.in era when women were repressed and it was seen as a battle, women rights in a society where they didn't have them. The suffrage movement had a better name.

originally posted by: IlluminatiTechnician

This is the only kind I have ever met or heard from too. I mean come on, there's whole online porn industry designed around the premise of women subjugating men and exploiting them for sex. We men should not have to be exploited in such a way.

It's all very objectifying and humiliating, isn't it? Why, some of the stuff I've heard about out there makes me curl up into a fetal ball! I dare not raise my head and say anything, though, 'cause they might GET me!

You are simply braver than I.

a reply to: neformore

Thank you so much for this post!

As a woman I am appalled at the treatment women receive on the web, even on "moderate" sites like Zero Hedge. When I complained about a comment that casually discussed beating a woman with a 2 x 4, I was routinely voted down by the invertebrates who inhabit the site. However, I believe such classless monsters are a minority on that site, and probably on most economics and science blogs.

On most comment sites, it's astounding that so few men care, that so many men wish to demean and humiliate and patronize or otherwise subject women to brutal and demeaning insults, under the guise of anonymity. These people are cowards, pure and simple. The profusion of vile sexual material on the web has also contributed widely to this problem of threatened violence online. Also, simply peruse the ads on the British newspapers to see how rank and sadistic and vile are the images that routinely assault readers.

I think that the key is to begin to more actively moderate commenting sites so that violent threats and derogatory hate speech against women would be banned, just as such speech is banned against people of color. One reason I love coming to ATS is that the site is actively monitored, and is not simply filled with abusive language and insults, as are most sites. I was mightily impressed recently by a tiny newspaper in Grand Rapids, Michigan, that stood up to the insults and abusive language about a family that decided having kids was a cause for celebration. The moderator (probably Christian), was very firm and decisive, and told commenters they would be banned for insulting posts that demeaned the family.

Finally, I would put out the radical and nonfeminist notion that true men and true masculinity are directly tied to how respectful and courteous and even protective men are of women and children and indeed, how respectful and courteous they are of ALL people regardless of gender and age. That was once called chivalry, and in general is now out of style and even considered sexist by Marxists. Manners may be the last outpost we have as a civilization, and women and men both can begin to practice courtesy, restraint, and being polite online.

This is an extremely thoughtful and important post, and again, I thank the moderator for opening up this discussion and getting this out in the open. It is a huge, troubling, and absolutely depressing development to see how far the tenor of discussion surrounding women (and children) has fallen . . . maybe I am old-fashioned, but I try to keep myself insulated against the hate, and protect myself from the assaults online, as it is simply too depressing to expose oneself to it willingly.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: OpinionatedB

You don't have any right to tell people not to use examples of oppression of women in other cultures, just because you have the same religion. Unfortunately some Muslim countries are oppressive to women, they do force women to cover up, and people have every right to discuss that.

Here is what is not being effectively communicated:

"Oppression of women in other cultures". What OB is trying to get across is it's THEIR culture, and the vast majority don't feel that they are being "oppressed" - that determination is no objective, it's SUBJECTIVE, and attempting to be imposed from an outside, alien culture, from their perspective. Imposing YOUR standards on them is not any different than them imposing THEIR standards on you - think "sharia law" here, since it's encroachment on the "British world" has been such a huge topic of discussion off and on.

A great many of those women are not "forced" to cover up - it's their culture, their idea of chastity and morality. IT'S THEIR COMFORT ZONE. By assaulting that, they perceive an assault on their chastity and morality, and an attempt to make them abandon both.

Some times, interaction is all in the perceptions.

People are not taught simple respect for one another. Society gives us a veneer of respectability, but on the Internet who we really are and what we really think comes out.

We are ugly; aren't we?

But when you go back to your day to day interactions in a face-to-face manner ask yourself how often that inner ugliness shows through in small ways. Do you open the doors for others? Do you say please and thank you even to complete strangers and mean it. Do you make eye contact and smile?

If anything, people usually tend to assume I'm a man when I'm online although I don't make a state secret out of certain things about myself, gender being one of them. However, I also don't tend to waste my time frequenting places where I am likely to run into idiots, either.

a reply to: nenothtu

My point is, I don't care if " a great many of them" don't mind, if any of them don't want to wear it, but are forced to because they are women. Then that is oppression.
I can see what you are trying to say, that if there a great many women there that think women should be forced to wear them, I should acccept that but I disagree.

a reply to: OpinionatedB



That brought back memories of when I broke a boys nose in the 4th grade. He had bullied me to the point that I was so angry I was crying. Something snapped and I backhanded him like there was no tomorrow.

Blood everywhere. He never did it again (neither did anyone else) and I stayed in the lunch line to get my food. No repurcussions for me because they had all seen what happened.

The sad thing is. It's not like that anymore. Just like the boy who's grandmother brought him over to apologize. Now, you'd most likely be getting a summons tacked to your door. Things aren't handled the way the used to be I agree.

My daughter was punched in the stomach by a boy when she was in elementary school. She came out the door crying and doubled over. The teachers had seen what happened, so I left it for them to deal with the next day. The next day... Nothing. I was furious. I went into the school and told the principal that I had told my daughter that the next time that boy touches her, she should put him on the floor by any means necessary. He said that wasn't the way to handle things, and I told him it wasn't the way to handle things to let this boy hit my daughter and not be punished for it, so if the teachers couldn't prevent it, she had been given permission to do so.

He said they would have to punish her, and I told him that if I pull up to the school and see him with her in the corner or something equally ridiculous for protecting herself that I would make it my mission to visit there everyday. I was a stay at home mom and had plenty of time. If something happened he was to call me and I would come and get her. I was fine with a suspension if she got into a fight, but not fine with them punishing her (demeaning her in front of others) themselves when they clearly didn't do it to the boy.

Obviously he took care of the little boy after that, as it never happened again. But we used to be able to handle it ourselves and now you aren't allowed to. Lawsuits, suspensions, expulsions, arrests, etc. prevent people from doing the right thing many times. They have to be scared of the repurcussions of protecting themselves. Parents refuse to see that their child is doing anything wrong and will go to the ends of the earth to make sure they can retire if you knock their kid's teeth out for touching you inappropriatly.

It's ass backwards.

a reply to: WilsonWilson
What about the flip side? Do you also disagree with banning the wearing of it? Afterall, if any of them are forced not to wear it, is it not oppression then?

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
a reply to: OpinionatedB

Unfortunately Muslim countries are some of the most obvious examples of oppression of women in the world, because yes, you are lucky to live in a country where you have a choice to cover or not. They don't.

In the example she presented, of a young woman in an alien world who felt forced to UNcover, and thereby be made uncomfortable, exactly where does the "opression" lie? To what may it be attributed?

Those evil "oppressive" Muslim governments, or your bastions of "freedom" and "non-opression"? Where is the moral superiority there?

Why is making a woman uncover to fit in morally superior to making her cover to fit in?

a reply to: TKDRL

Yes I have already stated a few posts back that I do disagree with the banning of it. Many women do choose to wear it, it becomes oppression when all women are forced to wear it, regardless of their choice.

This thread is not about Muslim women.

So how about folks stop hijacking it and discuss the topic at hand?

a reply to: nenothtu

One isn't better than the other, they are both morally as bad I agree. Women should be able to dress how they please without anybody making them uncomfortable.