What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen The Way We Plan?

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Yeah yeah yeah... I know, I know - "girls rule and boys drool!"

The back of the coat isn't the important thing - the important thing is that it IS the back of the coat, meaning he's going the other way... into WHAT, is the question. All we see is a bright light.

Honestly! I can't believe that you don't see the direct application of that avatar to THIS thread, and instead see "the back of a coat"!

Now make me a sammich!

originally posted by: Iamschist
a reply to: nenothtu

Agree it is sad to see those who have no belief in anything except the expectation that things will get worse, and no will to change anything.

That's the thing - as I recall, the Bible says that "faith without works is dead". I can't see a reason to get ticked off at God over things that they refuse to do anything about themselves, other than complain to (or about) God. Complaining to God is ok, but complaining to God and poking the problem with a stick is better!

The avatars are nice, she is developing some serious skills. Holding a dead turkey trumps fighting a bear with a stick. lol

She is, and of the two, I know which I'd rather be doing in the real world! One leads to dinner, and the other leads to.... scratch marks. Big ones.

a reply to: Iamschist

I think when it comes to faith, everyone is somewhere different.

I remember when I was younger, I know how I saw myself. I was religious, doing all the right things and I thought I knew exactly who and what God was... thought I had the whole thing down pat and mapped out and by gosh I was on my way to heaven when I died.

I felt reasonably righteous about myself. And I was dead wrong...

It took me getting hurt, and then dealing with pain greater than I could ever have imagined, only to be told I didn't get to die from it.. that the next 30 years of my life would be living hell...

THAT shook me to the core. Really it did. I was angry... I was nearly ready to kill myself since God wasn't planning on it... I was in a really really bad place...

But in that place, that is where I really met God. HIS version, rather than mine. Now... I know what faith means. Now, I can say to the limit of my very human ability I know God... I didn't have a clue back when I thought I was "godly"

Now... is a relationship with a being that I could never have imagined before all this... and... its so much different. But it took shaking the very core, making me completely helpless for a time... making me have no choice but to talk to God - to learn in that way who He really is.

I cannot fault people for where they are and their amount of faith.. some of them will be shaken to their cores - the outcome will be different for all.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

My story is similar, I was basically a zealot. I had no crisis of the type you had then, but I rebelled. It took many years for me to come back, and really I feel like when I was ready He came back for me. I was able to see that all my searching led me back where I started, but it was very different, personal. I did a great deal of reading, the Bible mostly with books that explored various Bible books in depth, I was so thirsty. I now try to have the relationship I had as a young child. Most of my time in prayer is really in praise.

a reply to: Iamschist

What is weird with me, is that i practically stopped reading. For me, all my reading had been a search - trying to learn about and somehow touch God.

Once I realized God.. I stopped needing to hear what other people's opinions were. I understood both God and scripture on a different level, or in a different way. Now... when I do read, its because I am searching again for something, an answer to a question that isn't being answered in prayer ect.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

The way I understand your dreams is that we are all in the middle of great events signalling the end of this age, yet we go about our business, full of selfish plans and outright greed, as if there is a tomorrow. However, there is no long-term future tomorrow and so we desperately need to prepare for the short-term today! But most are blind to what is about to happen...

We have people (from both sides) at war with those who will become their brethren; wasting lives, bodies, time, money, plans and weaponry, because people don't know differently. We have leaders who are leading us purely to suit themselves and provide for their own selfish needs and the next elections, without any regard to those they trample and hurt. We have religions that can't put us into any sort of contact with our Creator, yet who claim to be our spiritual authorities.

Even the differing views of the various posts in response to your article show how widespread our lack of information and knowledge is. So these can't explain what is going on.

When Jesus [sic] does come, many expect a Rapture to safety from the Tribulation... but this is because we have forgotten our Creator and His Son to the point where we don't even know their names. More than this, we don't understand because we can't even read the Bible properly to make any sense of it, or we would have the genuine lowdown on what the return of the Messiah is all about.

Worse, many won't believe those who can!

So, just expect the unexpected...!

P.S. Biblically, it is the Day of the LORD's wrath that will come as 'a thief in the night' upon all of those who still inhabit the earth. The Son's return as 'a thief' will be only to those who do not keep watch, and who are nakedly unaware.

What do I care. If Christianity is true I'm going to hell. I'm christian by the way.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Wow awesome dream.

I'm pre-trib rapture guy, maybe this is saying there wont be a rapture. Or maybe it will be mid-trib. Imagine if we had to go through the tribulation. That would cause many to stumble and loose faith. As it is said If possible even the elect will be deceived.

Good warning, I will remember if it seems Jesus has failed me, put my trust in him more so because he is testing my trusting faith.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Ha! You sound like me. Drawn to the prophecies for no real reason, but just like there was a hook there. It was sometime in junior high.

Could be your dream was just a different version of mine. A warning that it's coming ... whatever it is.

a reply to: OpinionatedB "What If Jesus's Second Coming Doesn't Happen The Way We Plan"

Not sure that Master/Prophet/exposed proved its existence in the first place and never promised humankind a second coming. Why would a fully 9 dimensional being having been here/done that (and made ITS POINT) have to return; as a REMINDER I WAS HERE 2000 years ago? Why in the world would you think you could alter persuade an ARCHETYPE to return in human form? I get the idea; if enough of us think a thought form into existence/solidify this may be possible; I just don't see the backbone/structure existing. WILL/PRAY a potential God (or great messenger) to duplicate a prior 3D experience? Ridiculous, preposterous. Your premise is that YOU PLANNED it and did not happen the way you had anticipated. WHAT EXACTLY DID NOT HAPPEN? (the second coming?). What if Buddha's second coming idea *somehow* gets lost in Disneyland; waiting within the lines upon folded paper (lost idealogically) within western families to board the amusement rides. Tell me Buddha or Krishna or Mohammed does not expect for themselves a second coming in the west (as prophecy?) Tell me more about some ones idea: The Jesus Prophecies "I will be back" terminator style or I LOVE YOU ALL TO DEATH using flower power.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Tangerine

Coming back implies that he was actually here previously. There isn't an iota of contemporaneous documentation (ie. historical evidence) proving that Jesus ever lived. Not one word was written about him until multiple generations after he allegedly lived. Not one word attributed to him was written by anyone who even lived when he allegedly lived and could have heard him say anything.

Well.

I guess you've got your timetable of belief too, then.

Good luck with it, but I think it might REALLY suck for you if you lose your faith.

Let's hope that doesn't happen.

My timetable of belief? I believe many things but I distinguish between belief and fact. It's far too easy to be led down the rabbit hole by confusing belief with fact. If you'd been born in India you'd likely be a Hindu. Ever think of that?

"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Luke 17:21

The Pharisees believed that The Kingdom of God was coming down from the sky, and Jesus corrected them, but many have the same beliefs as The Pharisees that the Kingdom of God is not within you and that it will come from the sky with clouds so look "here" or "there".

The Light will stay shining through the darkness until The Dawn of Day and The Morning Star arises in our hearts 2 Peter 1:19

The Morning Star (Christ) is returning through our hearts, not through the sky.

a reply to: ketsuko

I was thinking of you and myself both, and our visions and the sameness of them as well as the differences... You know.. I think yours are fundamentally different than mine..

In your visions, your going to something, and no one around you is aware of it. In mine... I need to "get" somewhere. Me. I am always trying to get somewhere.

I think there is a huge difference in that. Simply going somewhere, is different than having to get somewhere. Unless you get the same feeling I do in your dreams, that needing something, and going in the wrong places looking.

It sounds like your on the right track... and I have obstacles. That might be a comfort to you though... to know. The track your on is the correct one at least! You just have to quit thinking you can take anyone else with you!

And I need some nice person to take me by the hand and vouch for me - so that I make it.

originally posted by: Tangerine

My timetable of belief? I believe many things but I distinguish between belief and fact.

No you don't. You wouldn't be here, in this thread, if you did.

It's far too easy to be led down the rabbit hole by confusing belief with fact.

True enough, but you've yet to learn the difference.

If you'd been born in India you'd likely be a Hindu. Ever think of that?

How 'bout that?

If frogs had wings, they wouldn't go along bumping their asses on the ground. Ever think of that? If not, WHY not?

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Tangerine

My timetable of belief? I believe many things but I distinguish between belief and fact.

No you don't. You wouldn't be here, in this thread, if you did.

It's far too easy to be led down the rabbit hole by confusing belief with fact.

True enough, but you've yet to learn the difference.

If you'd been born in India you'd likely be a Hindu. Ever think of that?

How 'bout that?

If frogs had wings, they wouldn't go along bumping their asses on the ground. Ever think of that? If not, WHY not?

Are you disputing that I believe quite a few things or that I'm able to distinguish between belief and fact? If it's the latter, please explain.

Oh wise one, share your definition of the difference between belief and fact. Then apply that to the existence of God.

a reply to: Tangerine

"Belief" and "fact" are entirely separate things, and have no bearing on one another. Just because someone believes something, that does not make it "fact" - it also does not make it "not fact". Likewise, just because someone doesn't believe something, that does not make it "not fact", nor does it make it "fact". They are entirely separate things, like "science" and "religion". They do not have any bearing on one another.

The existence of God has no bearing on this thread, either. The thread is about differing beliefs, and the impact they may or may not have on an individual's "faith" if they don't pan out as the believer has formulated them. Existence or non-existence of a deity is entirely out of the scope of the thread.

Now, we can plainly see that you do not distinguish between "belief" and "fact" as you have claimed, because you are trying to call into question whether the existence of a deity is "fact", in a thread entirely predicated upon the impact of "belief" to an already believing individual. "Existence" is immaterial to the thread - only "belief" has bearing.

In short, you're in the wrong conversation and appear to be sublimely unaware of that.

originally posted by: nenothtu
a reply to: Tangerine

"Belief" and "fact" are entirely separate things, and have no bearing on one another. Just because someone believes something, that does not make it "fact" - it also does not make it "not fact". Likewise, just because someone doesn't believe something, that does not make it "not fact", nor does it make it "fact". They are entirely separate things, like "science" and "religion". They do not have any bearing on one another.

The existence of God has no bearing on this thread, either. The thread is about differing beliefs, and the impact they may or may not have on an individual's "faith" if they don't pan out as the believer has formulated them. Existence or non-existence of a deity is entirely out of the scope of the thread.

Now, we can plainly see that you do not distinguish between "belief" and "fact" as you have claimed, because you are trying to call into question whether the existence of a deity is "fact", in a thread entirely predicated upon the impact of "belief" to an already believing individual. "Existence" is immaterial to the thread - only "belief" has bearing.

In short, you're in the wrong conversation and appear to be sublimely unaware of that.

The title of the thread is "What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen the Way We Plan?" The very question assumes that Jesus actually existed and it is that claim of fact that I appropriately addressed.

You are reiterating my position on belief and fact as though you think I said something different.

a reply to: Tangerine

Even saying to yourself, "Jesus won't come back like Christians think because he doesn't exist" is a _ quote _ plan.

You are very much planning something.... based on your beliefs. So the question you might be answering is, but what if he did exist after all, and does indeed come back like the Christians said?

For everyone their personal question is different, but it does not mean the question has no merit.. even for an atheist it is still a valid question.

originally posted by: Tangerine

The title of the thread is "What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen the Way We Plan?" The very question assumes that Jesus actually existed and it is that claim of fact that I appropriately addressed.

You are reiterating my position on belief and fact as though you think I said something different.

I guess I just may not understand your question, then. The phrase "What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen the Way We Plan?" implies to me, right there within itself, the potential for non-existence of a god. IF God did not exist, then of course he could not send Jesus back in "the way we plan" - or any other way. So, the root of the thread seems to me to be individual's reactions to a failure in their belief system, regardless of the cause of it, and hasn't anything to do at all with "existence" or "non-existence" of a deity. It appears to be an eminently human question, rather than a deity question.

So what IS your question or statement, and how does it bear on the topic of the thread?

Note: my reference to "the failure of your belief system" means that, if you believe there IS no God, and it turns out that there really IS (i.e. - a failure of your belief), I just wouldn't want to be in your position at that point. Again, it refers to the failure of a belief, to which the "truth" of the existence of a deity is at best peripheral. How would you handle that event? I don't know - that would be for YOU to determine, just as it is for the believers to determine how THEY would react in the event of failure of their belief systems.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to "belief". The existence of a God will never be proven until someone can poke it with a stick, and it can NEVER be disproven - one cannot prove a negative. "Fact" does not enter into the equation at all, only "belief". I would imagine that if a God exists, it set it up that way on purpose, because once fact slaps one upside the head, faith dies entirely. There is no more need for it.

ETA: This:

You are reiterating my position on belief and fact as though you think I said something different.

You did say something different. You are claiming that some how "belief" and "fact" are related, that one must account for the other. Otherwise, there would be no reason to attempt to introduce "fact" into a discussion on "belief". You asked me to apply "fact" to God, as if a god would just stand there and let me poke it with a stick, prod and measure, weigh it and wrap a bow around it, and that without that, "belief" is unsustainable. That's wrong. If that were to happen, it would be the utter destruction of "belief", not a supporting datum for it. "Belief" or "faith" would no longer be necessary, nor would it even have a place to hold.

originally posted by: nenothtu

originally posted by: Tangerine

The title of the thread is "What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen the Way We Plan?" The very question assumes that Jesus actually existed and it is that claim of fact that I appropriately addressed.

You are reiterating my position on belief and fact as though you think I said something different.

I guess I just may not understand your question, then. The phrase "What if Jesus' Second Coming Doesn't Happen the Way We Plan?" implies to me, right there within itself, the potential for non-existence of a god. IF God did not exist, then of course he could not send Jesus back in "the way we plan" - or any other way. So, the root of the thread seems to me to be individual's reactions to a failure in their belief system, regardless of the cause of it, and hasn't anything to do at all with "existence" or "non-existence" of a deity. It appears to be an eminently human question, rather than a deity question.

So what IS your question or statement, and how does it bear on the topic of the thread?

Note: my reference to "the failure of your belief system" means that, if you believe there IS no God, and it turns out that there really IS (i.e. - a failure of your belief), I just wouldn't want to be in your position at that point. Again, it refers to the failure of a belief, to which the "truth" of the existence of a deity is at best peripheral. How would you handle that event? I don't know - that would be for YOU to determine, just as it is for the believers to determine how THEY would react in the event of failure of their belief systems.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to "belief". The existence of a God will never be proven until someone can poke it with a stick, and it can NEVER be disproven - one cannot prove a negative. "Fact" does not enter into the equation at all, only "belief". I would imagine that if a God exists, it set it up that way on purpose, because once fact slaps one upside the head, faith dies entirely. There is no more need for it.

ETA: This:

You are reiterating my position on belief and fact as though you think I said something different.

You did say something different. You are claiming that some how "belief" and "fact" are related, that one must account for the other. Otherwise, there would be no reason to attempt to introduce "fact" into a discussion on "belief". You asked me to apply "fact" to God, as if a god would just stand there and let me poke it with a stick, prod and measure, weigh it and wrap a bow around it, and that without that, "belief" is unsustainable. That's wrong. If that were to happen, it would be the utter destruction of "belief", not a supporting datum for it. "Belief" or "faith" would no longer be necessary, nor would it even have a place to hold.

Perhaps you are unaware that Christians believe that Jesus once lived as a man (ie. existed as fact). In addition to that, they believe that he will return as a supernatural deity. The OPs topic about Jesus's "second coming' is predicated on the claim of fact that Jesus once lived as a man. I addressed that claim of fact. Moreover, many (most?) Christians believe that their beliefs are indistinguishable from fact. Therefore, discussing the difference between belief and fact is entirely relevant to the thread.

I'm well aware that a belief once supported by testable evidence is no longer a belief. It becomes a fact. That has not happened in regard to the one-time existence of Jesus or the current existence of Jesus.