The 25th anniversary of the Lazar saga...

originally posted by: duaneology


For nostalgia sake I went back and listened to Bob Lazar's first appearance on Coast to Coast. It was my first exposure to him and at the time I was captivated and fascinated by his story.

Upon my revisiting it I am somewhat embarrassed that I ever took this man to be even remotely genuine. I must have had much lower standards of proof back then or was much more gullible because he completely lacks sincerity, credibility or anything even close to what any reasonable person would consider "evidence".

I remember when the story broke. I totally bought into it... It was just too cool of a claim not to.

Also back then the average Joe had limited access to info beyond what was released in the newsmedia or books. Most of us weren't hard core researchers like Friedman.

I still think there is a kernel of truth to his story.

Anyone that knows me around here will know that I am skeptical of stories and claims such as Lazar's, but I can 't help but feel like there is something to this.

Lazar doesn't do lectures, sell books or even make the rounds on the UFO circuit. He's very articulate and he seems to know what he's talking about when it comes to the expression of scientific information.

Like the Russians, that US isn't above using popular mythology about extraterrestrials to shield the reality of their secrets. It's pretty cost effective, actually. People are willing to -pay- for information on UFOs, the government doesn't have to upkeep anything on the story anymore, and of course, the government can deny, deny, deny, because in truth, their isn't anything to disclose, other than what they wont disclose, which is that this is very good for intelligence.

a reply to: mirageman

Yes indeed. Lazar may not been passing on the poison he may have been one of the chemists as well.

That seems to have been the theme when it came to the creation of the Aquarius Briefing and the MJ12 documents.

The rudiments of the stories that make up both of those documents were culled directly from the UFO community and re-formatted by Doty and his handlers in to the final drafts that were shown, for instance, to L. Howe. She talks about having been shown them in the Mirage Men movie.

Same thing with Bennewitz: Bennewitz told the Air Force what he was seeing, they just confirmed it for him.

It's not everything-and-a-bag-of-chips, but you can learn about this from the proceedings of the 2007 MUFON International UFO Symposium and what are known as the "Secret Pratt Tapes".

www.michaelsheiser.com...

It's a subtle point that Mirage men seems to miss: the UFO community itself is the source of its own mythology.

If Lazar was lying about Los Alamos why did Ed Teller get so irate when questioned about Lazar, and why was his name listed in the Los Alamos phone directory?

I for one believe Lazar's story. That does not exclude the possibility that Bob was being used as part of a disinformation op. Like George Knapp always says, Lazar has never changed his story, still the same 25 years later, and that alone is an anomaly in the field of ufology. He does not profit from his story, he has no book to sell, he doesn't like talking about it at all these days. He has stated many times that he totally regrets his decision to go public in '89.

I for one find George Knapp to be a man of integrity, and Knapp has also stated many times that he has spoken, in confidence, to other former employees at 51 who have come to him and corroborated a lot of Lazar's claims. So in my view Bob is telling the truth as he knows it.

a reply to: The GUT

Yep... George has told me quite a few stories that really make it hard to decide about Lazar, the Los Alamos trip being the one that really makes me scratch my head. I think if you check out the AMA thread George did here you'll find most of the others. In the multiple times I've hung out with George he's never swayed on Lazar one way or the other, he knows there are issues with documentation but for each one of those there are things like being welcomed at the Lab to offset it. Weirdness abounds.

Last March when I was in LV Stanton Friedman, George Knapp, and I sat down and had lunch. It was the first time those two had ever met face to face, the discussion was amazing but it ended exactly where it started as far as Lazar is concerned. Stanton has legitimate questions that can't be answered and George experienced things that can't be explained.

I've known George for years and consider him among my personal friends, I've been to his house, we've traveled together, he is one of the most honest and sincere people I know, he's also amazingly SMART, I know he's telling the truth exactly as he knows it and I can't believe he was fooled by anything or anyone.

Go figure...

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: signalfire

If the government can disappear you, and blow the head off the President of the United States in full view of the American public and then blame it on a CIA patsy, I'm thinking making your record at MIT disappear is Spy 101 stuff.

A convenient way to account for gaping holes in Lazar's story which requires no effort or evidence whatsoever.

CT 101 stuff.

Exactly.

If the government wanted you silenced erasing your educational background wouldn't be their first choice. They'd simply murder you and make it look like a suicide or accident.

Knowing this we have to assume that anyone putting forth any information or story that should make the government uncomfortable is being allowed to do so. Either because it's utter nonsense or because it's intentional disinformation or because it's information they want revealed.

originally posted by: duaneology

originally posted by: draknoir2

originally posted by: signalfire

If the government can disappear you, and blow the head off the President of the United States in full view of the American public and then blame it on a CIA patsy, I'm thinking making your record at MIT disappear is Spy 101 stuff.

A convenient way to account for gaping holes in Lazar's story which requires no effort or evidence whatsoever.

CT 101 stuff.

Exactly.

If the government wanted you silenced erasing your educational background wouldn't be their first choice. They'd simply murder you and make it look like a suicide or accident.

Knowing this we have to assume that anyone putting forth any information or story that should make the government uncomfortable is being allowed to do so. Either because it's utter nonsense or because it's intentional disinformation or because it's information they want revealed.

Suppose what Bob was saying was the truth! If they...remove him it adds more fuel to the fire and people will continue to investigate for ever after!
The best thing to do is to simply inject some doubt, and thats easily acheived with a few well placed people. Just take a look through this thread so far and you'll see many people think he was telling the truth but...they have a little doubt too!
Job done.

I personally believe him.

a reply to: duaneology

I think there are probably many variables when it comes to whistleblowers like Bob Lazar.

Take his story, far fetched? Who'd believe him? Or like you say, maybe somebody near the top thought it was time the public got wind of this stuff. And yes, maybe it's all a big disinfo campaign.

Thing is I don't believe 'they' kill everybody who talks, why? In my opinion, we're talking about different agencies here, Lazar worked for the Navy(if you believe his story) not the CIA or the FBI, maybe these different agencies follow their own protocols when it comes to whistleblowers. Maybe somebody at 51 liked Bob and didn't want to see him killed. We just don't know.

a reply to: VoidHawk

For whatever reason Bob Lazar is being allowed by TPTB to freely tell his story. I've speculated on the only three logical reasons I see for this to occur. I don't find Bob Lazar sincere or believable. In fact upon re examination I find his story downright hokey. That combined with the contradictory evidence and the gapping holes in his story lead me to conclude that the reason he's allowed to freely tell his story is because it's silly and it makes the UFO community look gullible for buying into it.

I believe that George Knapp believes everything he states as fact...but he has always seemed uncomfortably close to the story. With all due respect to the man I simply doubt his ability to remain objective.

a reply to: duaneology

Lazar told his story back in '89.

It's old news. The government or whoever would have nothing to gain by silencing him now, there's nothing to silence, Lazar rarely if ever speaks publicly about his experience these days.

Out of curiosity I'd like to know what you see as gaping holes in his story?

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
Out of curiosity I'd like to know what you see as gaping holes in his story?

One gaping hole is when he actually attended NIT, and why no one there remembers hm, why he is in no yearbook etc from that time.

www.ufomind.com...

www.otherhand.org...

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
Out of curiosity I'd like to know what you see as gaping holes in his story?

One gaping hole is when he actually attended NIT, and why no one there remembers hm, why he is in no yearbook etc from that time.

www.ufomind.com...

www.otherhand.org...

Bingo.

I also find his explanation of how he initially came to be involved in the reverse engineering program to extremely difficult to swallow.

I saw this posted on Facebook.
It's a real place, and Bob has had connections to the industry before... Is it possible?

a reply to: hellobruce

I don't consider that to be a gaping hole.

Considering his claims, would you think it inconceivable that MIT's records have been tampered with?

What about Los Alamos? Do you believe that he worked there?

That some people in the UFO community have scrutinised Lazar's background and found discrepancies demonstrates how easy it is for government agencies to discredit an individual. If you temporarily put aside your doubt and imagine for a moment that Lazar is telling the truth, now think for a moment how, if you were employed to discredit him, how you would go about that, it makes perfect sense, to me anyways. And if Lazar is telling the truth, whoever was given the task of discrediting him didn't do a bad job because many intelligent and rational people who are open to the UFO hypothesis don't buy Lazar's story simply on the strength of his educational claims.

a reply to: duaneology

Please elaborate?

What parts of his story are you talking about?

Don't you realize that bob was only obeying the time paradigm when he told his story in 89?
a reply to: duaneology

originally posted by: seabhac-rua
a reply to: duaneology

Lazar told his story back in '89.

It's old news. The government or whoever would have nothing to gain by silencing him now, there's nothing to silence, Lazar rarely if ever speaks publicly about his experience these days.

Out of curiosity I'd like to know what you see as gaping holes in his story?

I'll let Stanton Friedman highlight some of Lazar's inconsistencies...

Incredible claims have been made about Bob Lazar for years. He supposedly is a physicist with an MS in Physics from MIT and an MS in Electronics from the California Institute of Technology. He was a “Scientist” for Los Alamos National Laboratory, and obtained a job back-engineering UFOs at a very secret site S-4 near Area 51 in Nevada through noted Physicist, the late Dr. Edward Teller.

Supposedly he figured out how saucers work using Element 115 — matter/anti-matter, etc. He was able to steal a small quantity of 115 from the 500 pounds available, but this was stolen back. There was indeed an announcement in early 2004 about the production of 4 atoms of element 115 by operating a huge European accelerator for many weeks. It has a very short half life so there is no way to accumulate pounds of it. He supposedly came forward with his story despite death threats because he thought the public has a right to know. Videotapes are available with his claims.

It is all BUNK.

Not one shred of evidence has been put forth to support this story: No diplomas, no résumés, no transcripts, no memberships in professional organizations, no papers, no pages from MIT or Caltech yearbooks. He also mentioned, in a phone conversation with me, California State University at Northridge and Pierce Junior College — also in the San Fernando Valley, California. I checked all four schools. Pierce said he had taken electronics courses in the late 1970s. The other three schools never heard of him.

The page from the Los Alamos National Lab phone book with Lazar’s name on it clearly states that it includes employees of the DOE and outside contractor, Kirk Meyer. “K/M” follows Lazar’s name. This proves he worked for K/M, not LANL.

I checked with LANL’s personnel department for Lazar’s name and that of an old colleague. They found my guy, but not Lazar.

He was publicly asked when he got his MS from MIT. He said “Let me see now, I think it was probably 1982.” Nobody getting an MS from MIT would not know the year immediately. He was asked to name some of his profs, He said: “Let’s see now, Bill Duxler will remember me from the physics department at Caltech.” I located Dr. Duxler. He’s a Pierce Junior College physics prof, and never taught at Caltech. Lazar was registered in one of his courses at the same time Lazar was supposedly at MIT! Nobody who can go to MIT goes to Pierce JC, not to mention the rather long commute between LA and Cambridge, Mass.

I checked his High School in New York State. He graduated in August, not with his class. The only science course he took was chemistry. He ranked 261 out of 369, which is in the bottom third. There is no way he would have been admitted by MIT or Caltech. An MS in Physics from MIT requires a thesis. No such thesis exists at MIT, and he is not on a commencement list. The notion that the government wiped his CIVILIAN records clean is absurd. I checked with the Legal Counsel at MIT — no way to wipe all his records clean. The Physics department never heard of him and he is not a member of the American Physical Society.

When he declared bankruptcy in the mid 1980s for almost $300,000.00 he listed his occupation as a self-employed film processor. With MS degrees from MIT and Caltech? Caltech would not have accepted him for an MS program, if he already had one from MIT.

His propulsion scheme sounds good (as do many science fiction stories), but makes no real sense especially in view of how difficult it would be to add protons to #115. Gravity wave amplification sounds great but what does it mean?

He could not have gotten a Compartmentalized Security clearance having operated a brothel. His W-2 form from the Department of Naval Intelligence totals under $1000.00, at most a week’s pay for a scientist. You can’t get a security clearance in a week.

Scientists leave trails. Lazar is NOT a scientist. He couldn’t even answer scientific questions put to him. An excellent review of Bob’s “Physics” can be seen at web.archive.org/web/20061220030435/www.serve.com...

I should add that Bob is a bright and talented guy who operated a jet powered car, put on fireworks displays, and apparently helped physics professors working at the Los Alamos Meson accelerator facility.

www.stantonfriedman.com...

If you take the time to examine the findings of any respectable media outlet, researcher, investigative reporter, etc. who has investigated Bob Lazar they all come up with the same inconsistencies and misrepresentations.

a reply to: duaneology

I'm not one to dismiss Stanton Friedman, but he's not right about everything.

As Springer recounted in this post: www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think that Stanton has some kind of axe to grind with the Bob Lazar story.