The Empty Verses: As Above, So below.

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

I think you're both full of yourselves.

This I cannot deny.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I enjoy the challenge you present even if ultimately we are both doing and saying the same thing in the limited terms of relative understanding that is little based on anything 'real' so to speak but rather perception. So that being said I shall re-read through it all and see where the winds of perception takes me.

If everything is ultimately relative than how can either of us know in 'truth' what we think we know? We both are theorizing based on a life of experiences which makes everything as I said 'relative'. Perhaps the difference is in whom has had experiences out of this 'state of reality'? Would that be a better determining factor or would that just mean that we would be even deeper in the claws - clause of deception/perception?

I suppose truthfully in the end the 'reality' comes down to who is helping those in need and living in operation of that type of Love in its simplicity without the selfish expectation of receiving payment nor even in love back. I do believe that ultimately intellectualizing life is a waste but only if that is all that life has become.

In my mind it always circles back to the Christ and the powerful simplicity of truth that he represented evading the pitfalls of the mind that more often than naught leads to 'internal oblivion'. Through the action of being Love & Service to a dying world the frequencies in operation shift and increase so as to uplift and even break through the blinding layers of perception in what is a womb ensnared.

Consequently I do believe this emissary was able to break through and literally alter time and reality as a result of the true keys obtained. I think truth ultimately is far simpler than we can imagine and in the end it is that we create our 'reality' and are also used in 'co-creating' it through agreements of entrapment.

Thank you for the challenge. Even if pushed beyond our comfort zones I find that in itself serves as a type of breakthrough, that is if we can respond without 'reacting' in self-defense and negativity excavating within oneself why some things affect us as they do. Therein lies a profundity of 'self-exploration and discovery' in a constant struggle to evolve and break through. Essentially what it comes down to is 'giving' as opposed to taking. In the Spirit of Giving one can alter 'reality', time and space and most powerfully ones path of enlightenment or rather emancipation.

It's always a fight against a duplicitous nature within ourselves that is divided in the various perceived realities at play. Perhaps in this way Voltaire was correct in saying 'ignorance is bliss'?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Then why denigrate spirituality with such (seeming)fervor? Why keep writing these threads? They're really all about the same thing aren't they..

I'm asking a simple question, do you think that it is reasonable for you to take such an adamant stance when you really haven't explored the subject yourself? Otherwise than reading of course.

I am not that experienced, being quite young, but for some reason I have experiences, weekly, minor things happen daily. This is why I believe, this is why I feel that I know.

I don't know what would be sufficient evidence for you, would poltergeist activity suffice? Something invisible interacting with the physical world, thus discounting hallucinations as an explanation.

Do you really feel that it's reasonable to discount the experiences of millions, or probably billions of people all throughout history? If it was just superstition why do people keep claiming they have these experiences even in the most secular of countries? Does people experiencing this type of stuff not count as circumstantial evidence? Are they really ALL crazy?

There's even science documenting some of this stuff, of course most scientists will call it woo woo, but it is also quite likely that scientists with a positivist mindset will seize on anything to discredit this fringe science.

I can't prove anything to you, I can't do the work for you. If you want to experience something 'supernatural' I would suggest meditation as a start, I wouldn't really recommend dabbling with demonology, but yeah, there's always that. What do you expect me to do to prove this to you, pull a rabbit out of my hat? I'm afraid that is beyond my abilities.

Try astral projection earnestly, it probably won't convince you of anything since it could all be in your mind, but it could be a neat skill to have, and very exciting, visiting other realms and worlds, and if you get proficient enough in it you might even be able to do the "card experiment" successfully. That would provide some firt hand evidence.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

I think it is you who denigrates spirituality. The splitting man of man in two, pitting consciousness, soul, spirit, against his body, and the damnation of this Earth in favour of another “higher” reality, are the tenets of mystic spirituality throughout the course of human history. When men claim to possess supernatural means of knowledge, no communication or understanding is possible, as the intellect (intellectual masturbation), the only objective standard we can all participate in, is slandered in favour of god-knows-what. If people disagree, which they do often, they have no recourse but to physical violence, or in your case, claims to spiritual authority. This is what denigrates spirituality.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Sahabi

Sahabi,

Thank you for the excellent response. Despite my sweeping generalizations, and attacks on what some might consider sacred, you remain unaffected and are still able to entertain the ideas like a welcoming host. True wisdom.

It is a healthy exercise to question, evaluate, and re-evaluate that which we hold sacred, definitive, or factual. When we hold, too strongly, onto certain views, opinions, understandings, and conclusions,... we create, for ourselves, prisons of attachment that blind us to the reality of 'what is.' We develop self-perpetuating biases, prejudices, and predetermined views rooted in our ideological attachments. Instead of perceiving and experiencing reality for 'what it is,' we are instead mesmerized by our own conceptualizations and rationalizations. Instead of seeing a 'thing,' we see our understanding of the thing.

Holding words, axioms, books, concepts, and ideas as absolute, is indeed detrimental to an unadulterated observation and experience of reality and existence.

Thank you for the stimulating discussion.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

In some teachings yes, in others no. Conflict between matter and spirit is not necessary.

You only think I pit this world against higher worlds, that is an assumption on your part.
It is also based on your view that higher worlds does not exist, something that you do not know for certain, especially seeing as you've said that you lack experience. So why do you think that you would know better than people with a lifetime of experience? It's quite arrogant of you to presume you know better.

Besides, shouldn't your view be agnostic? Surely you can't know for sure, given your faith in science and the scientific method wouldn't that be the rational stance, yet it seems you think you know.

Why should anyone give you the time of day, what is your credibility based on?

To mystics the intellectual is merely one part of the spirit/mind/body complex.
To only focus on one part would be to neglect the others, your accusations are faulty, and you yourself are guilty of the same, focusing on the mental in preference of other aspects, some of which you deny the existance of.

Also, you're dodging my questions.

a reply to: AlephBet

It looks like I have a lot to catch up on. I like what you said "We can either overcome and rise or fall further and sink. It goes back to how we manage suffering. Suffering on purpose is the smart thing to do. It's an environment of forced development from the presence of need. Necessity is the mother of invention. Seek, Find and Adapt."

I know in my life I have had many opportunities which seemed to be a trap from the forces in opposition. I always chose the simple painful path even though I could have had 'it all' yet even at a young age I felt that as you put it, suffering on purpose or choosing the harder road was just 'right' and within the balance of 'spirit'. I never felt that this life was meant for our own personal benefit in feeding the desires of the flesh. If anything I have felt that was the diversion set in a snaring by the multitude of powers at play here.

That being said I believe that we can obtain much within ourselves without giving into the enemy or the enemies temptations. I don't believe we are meant to suffer in the way we have been conditioned and primed to believe. That I believe is the program of the Archontic forces but suffering in light of not choosing what the enemy has laid out for you in temptation is the higher calling not suffering of its own necessarily. We are capable of anything and everything for it is us who Creates and Co-Created this reality.

I do believe that the Archontic forces made us believe that the god of the bible was the real god.......and rigged it all so that we would serve them and not the true Source which is Balance. The bible is filled with black and white squares....hard to tell what comes from a truthful source and what is the hijacking principalities?

Not so sure about the adapting part because I am more inclined to believe Christ's awakening in being the shifter of reality and harnessing the power we all have to melt time and space affecting a correcting in 'balance' that this paradigm hugely is suffering in lack as a result of our choices and blind power that has been loosed in the universe at the expenditure of hosting principalities and powers that have long hijacked everything here.

Christ didn't adapt he changed the game and made it 'his own' altering time and space which is one of the greatest keys in existence - Who and What we are in Authority and Creators.

I don't think we are meant to adapt............we are meant to do the opposite I feel.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what or how you mean by 'adapt'?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

When I was in University I took Russian Literature and Russian philosophy. That was one of the most depressing years of my life I have to say. Not that what I was reading wasn't grounded in some truth but that is was void of hope, faith or Light. I cannot help but feel that when I read what you write it is taken out of that genre of philosophy which is similar to surrendering because the physical condition or reality tells you one thing and you believe it even though the spirit may be trying to show you a way out. This is the polarity and the battle between war and peace within our own existence.

We are trapped inside the condition of our vehicles in what appears to be a very dense and heavy field of reality but that isn't what we are. But how can we describe the thing that is indescribable? How does one begin to describe the Divine when we are bound inside the 'void' and 'cage'?

Our experiences don't determine what is 'reality' but they feel like they do. It all seems hopeless when looking at life here and the grind that is endless and seemingly going nowhere. It is true that life beats us down, pummels us and tries to grind us to dust but there is that eternal spark of fire and Light that doesn't come from this heavy place.........it is the thing we are attempting to leap to not just in understanding but in actual manifestation.

If I took life at face value here and thought this is all there is I would want to cease existence instantly but the challenge is in the opposition to that 'condition' rendered by some 'fall' that left us in this predicament which is by our own design in choosing regardless. I guess we wanted to do it the hard way and we certainly got it. The challenge is in the struggle between 'realities' in what is material existence vs Spiritual existence. One is fire and truth beyond the false nature of the material world and its perceptions, feelings and rigging's and the other is the matrix and grid that has imprisoned our 'spirit' within the lie usurped by a 'soul' that has obscured our very 'Being in Spirit'.

The contradiction is the very core in what is the duplicitous nature in polarity of our existence inside this battle for our own 'Being'. The battle between the soul and the spirit is what I am referring to here. Cold rationalism denies what can never be said or interpreted of the 'true Divine'. It is impossible except through 'action' as Christ demonstrated.

en.wikipedia.org...

Les Misanthropy - your name gives much away. The general disposition of hating, distrusting or feeling disdain of the human species or human condition which certain intellectual authors such as William S. Gilbert, Sartre, Nietzsche, Schopenhauer, Shakespeare, Jonathan Swift, Emannual Kant (the list of Philosophers is too long) who out of all saw that it was impossible for man to procure truth wrote about. In this Descartes was truly an infant in basic understanding which was the first step in dismantling reality but served also a purpose in revealing the nature of this illusion.

A profound quote which I feel is filled with a wisdom in the condition we are in:

Molière's character Alceste in Le Misanthrope (1666) states:


My hate is general, I detest all men; Some because they are wicked and do evil, Others because they tolerate the wicked, Refusing them the active vigorous scorn Which vice should stimulate in virtuous minds.

Plato, Phaedo, Socrates, Aristotle speak of Misanthropy developing from the place of initial trust in naive optimism through a desire to penetrate the darkness first only to discover the absolute lost unreliability that leads to disdain in trusting beings whom are lost to begin with. Men therefore with art and cultivation lie between good and evil and to overcome such is to lie outside it all in the extremity of godhood or what is even more 'real' in nature a splitting in connection to such human limitation in understanding. Perhaps even in this a beasts would appear superior. Yet the middle is the lost state of man in the struggle between soul and spirit which is ultimately the struggle of truth in the universe.

“I hate mankind, for I think myself one of the best of them, and I know how bad I am.”
― Samuel Johnson

“Knowledge subverts love: in proportion as we penetrate our secrets, we come to loathe our kind, precisely because they resemble us.”
― Emil Cioran

Ultimately we cannot escape judgements of others nor can we escape the very condition we are all born into in this 'Naivety' and 'dis-course'. Simultaneously we need one another even towards and especially the aim of shattering through this prison matrix. This is not reliant on conformity because if anything we are meant to break such paradigms in this struggle between mortals, hijacking gods who are under the guise of god, the universe and our own godhood in discovery through the quagmire of the limited human condition.

I do however comprehend the misanthropy of it all in this farm, if anything we constantly struggle to find the 'light' through it all including within those that surround us and even within us. If anything the problem is that we are what we see in the mirror and it is fighting against this horrifying reality that is where the battle lies. (Lies - as in the opposite of truth) ugh.

Only our condition isn't limited but that is the illusion/amnesia in the dense physicality of this place we call reality. We are all struggling to obtain the 'tree of knowledge' which is our own existence. Ultimately I can say I know nothing at all if I pit myself up against this reality but I'm trying. By the same token my 'Spirit' however does know which is what I am trying to bring in communion with what ever it is that I am here.

originally posted by: tetra50

originally posted by: neodruid66
I have only a small clue what I am talking about. And they reminded me of foo fighters.

Most of us have and get by on just a small clue….and have to be content with that when we really aren't but haven't much choice in the matter.
Anyone says they've got beyond that small glimmer is courting disaster, imho, of course.

And what disaster would that be, are you going to be punished , lost for all eternity in a puzzle?

IMO, either go beyond it, or you can stay HERE, never actually knowing anything, FOREVER, in a slowly, almost imperceptibly ever worsening spiral of death.

Interesting how one can be so clear on one issue, and then discourage attempts to REALLY find out and break this ridiculous existence wide open.... it is clear to me, that a system has entrapped you, not picking on you, it just seems like a total waste of time to believe that anything here has any good reason....staying on the "course" has proved to be an epic fail 100% of the time.

a reply to: ErgoTheAbsurd

Oh I didn't take it as mockery, (wonderful poet)

I think I was just on my own trip in my head on the inherent meaninglessness of words, and that provoked more thought on the subject, which was probably totally redundant, but I had fun musing anyway. I always appreciate a little thought provocation... so thanks!

I always thought this was a clever way of conveying that seemingly different places/moments/people all share thousands of fundemental similarities. Say, a king and a peasent. As above for this example is the king being above in social rank. From the surface the king is rich and all powerful, the peasent poor and pathetic. But they both love their families more than anything, have a soft for their pets, argue with their wife, etc, etc. It doesn't even have to be an above/below thing, those are just representitive of things that appear opposites. The other two words help convey that the distinction of above and below is an arbitrary and superficial one.
Just my two cents.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

My response to your denouncement of his credibility has saved me the time of typing. I concur wholeheartedly with your response. Thank you.

Unless one succeeds practising a little magick every so often one will never look...see....comprehend

a reply to: AlephBet

I wasn't going to paste all that misrepresentated science, but I wanted to correct one grossly incorrect idea that I have seen a lot lately..

"consciousness collapses the wave function"

No, it does not. The act of observing collapses the wavefunction, but not by some jedi mind trick. This could be a laser beam simply determining location of a photon, it isn't consciousness as you (and many quacks) falsely assert.

I hate misrepresentated science, because to the layman it looks like real science.

a reply to: dr1234

You get in to all kinds of these, that come from the same origin.

Hot cold, up down , in out, he she, good evil, I'm at a loss now for what this is called, but it's all part of same thing.

One of the ones I think of is, like ants and humans, and the beings so far beyond (Superior) to us, we would see them as Gods.

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

I don’t think anyone could pit this world against higher world even if you tried, so I’m not sure I assumed that. Rhetorically, however, this occurs quite often.

Yes, plenty of people have much more experience in sitting down and meditating, or having astral travels in their sleep, than I do. I personally enjoy movement and adventure more than sitting and sleeping.

If conflict between matter and spirit is not necessary, why attempt separate the two? Where would one place their imaginary line between them? Nowhere of course, because no such place and no such line exist. Once again, this only ever happens rhetorically. The same occurs with the urge to fragment the human being into various entities abstract entities, blaming one and venerating another, without any cause or reason to do so.

As for agnosticism, no I’m not agnostic. I participate in knowing quite often. Humans are a species that happen to engage in what we call knowing. Reserving knowledge for any other being is a folly. To say that we cannot know is a dogma, a lie, one that is entirely unfounded.

I have written more threads against atheism than I have against spirituality. Whether the rhetoric is mystical in persuasion or atheistic, whether scientific or woo, I will stand firm against it in every single case. So spare me the nonsense about me giving spirituality a hard time, as if it required your defending.

As for your question, we’ve had this discussion before, so I feel I’m repeating myself, but I have never discounted anyone’s experience. Not once. How could I? You keep it; it’s yours. Yet you and others have attempted to speak ill of me as a person quite a few times now. Swings and misses each time. But then again there are others who share their ideas with grace. They realize I speak of a ideas, despite my polemical tone, and they too speak of ideas. Ideas have no feelings. What I share is a single human being’s observations, from a single human being’s perspective and language. And that is my only credibility.

But please, help me with an inquiry. If I am simply bad at spirituality as you claim, explain to me how yours is any better.

a reply to: Egyptia

When I was in University I took Russian Literature and Russian philosophy. That was one of the most depressing years of my life I have to say. Not that what I was reading wasn't grounded in some truth but that is was void of hope, faith or Light. I cannot help but feel that when I read what you write it is taken out of that genre of philosophy which is similar to surrendering because the physical condition or reality tells you one thing and you believe it even though the spirit may be trying to show you a way out. This is the polarity and the battle between war and peace within our own existence.

It is strange you should mention this. The fellow in my avatar is Russian philosopher Vladimir Solovyov, a profound and spiritual man. If you still have interest in the Russian schools, give him a look and he might just change your mind.

The body often doesn’t do what the spirit wants, but then again, the spirit often doesn’t do what the body wants. This isn’t a sign that they are separate, but a sign that they are one and the same thing. In other words, I do not see myself analogous to being trapped in a cage. Besides, why would someone remain in a cage when the door was door is wide open, when freedom, divinity, God, transcendence of the physical, is but a few steps yonder?

Personally, I hold no misanthropic view. How could I hate humanity when I do not hate myself? It would be an illogical blunder. I actually hold quite the opposite view, and in my travels, I have found that everyone is quite alike, at least where laughter, conversation, hospitality, dance and merriment are universal languages. The ideals, the doctrines, the tribalism—it all slips away in these moments. The language of the body is where the spirit is, friend. It’s easy, if not exhilarating to learn. Every time I feel a little misanthropic I share such a moment of vulnerability with someone.

To use Christ as an analogy, we can see what is divine by what we’ve mistakenly crucified to our crosses. The world, the body, sensuality, free-expression to name a few. I still see spirit in these old corpses.

Thank you for sharing your interesting views.

Is it fear? Is it insecurity? Is it anger? Is it ego?

Why do we, all too often, focus our awareness on the messenger, rather than the message? Why do our conversations, discussions, and debates often deteriorate into personal attacks? Why do we defend and justify, instead of seeking mutual understanding? What is it that lures us into argument, instead of tempered dialogue?

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

I understand that I initially must've come off as excessively combative and I excuse my belligerent nature, just the way I am I guess, at times. This I say to you too LesMisanhtrope.

Uhm, and yeah, you confuse me TheConstruKctionofLight.. don't know what to make of your posts really, you're a bit silly aren't you?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I feel like you're playing with semantics a little bit too much but I'll try my best to answer anyway.

Just because there is no conflict between two things does not mean that they are not in fact two distinct things. I guess it comes down to what you mean by conflict.

Well, we have to try to make sense of things somehow don't we, using language and words, the map is not the territory, but the body and the intellect are not the same. Making distinctions does not mean that one has to place one above the other, I find that balance in all(most?) things is an important key. Around here we call it "lagom", the Golden mean.

What I was actually saying regarding your position was that surely you can't really know from an empirical standpoint if your position is truly correct, thus an agnostic stance would be the most rational one, barring what you call supernatural means of knowledge. Even the most stringent of scientists would concede that point I think.

I think you've mischaracterized my position, I'm not a solipsist, I too participate in knowing.

Never seen one of those threads, care to give me a link or two?
This makes me curious, if you're not agnostic, and you're not an atheist, what are you then, pray tell?

I'm confused, exactly what is it that you will stand firm against every time?

Hey, I'm just arguing(or debating? Not really sure) on the internet, presenting an opposing viewpoint. That is allowed is it not, whether I think you're giving spirituality a hard time or not.

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
I therefore conclude that he hasn't made an earnest effort in seeking these mysteries, or if he has it was probably lacking. Or maybe he's just very, very bad at it.

And I was right, in your own words you told me you have no experience, so the point is moot. You can't be bad at something you really haven't tried. But if you told me you was a practicing Buddhist for 40 years living in a monastery yet never had a single profound experience of a 'supernatural' nature I would have to conclude that something was lacking.

Yeah, well, those people are obviously more mature than me, I'm a bad seed, and like TheConstruKctionofLight said I'm full of myself. It's actually a part of my new philosophy of supreme arrogance. It's a dark elf thing, you wouldn't understand.

Ugh, I have a headache now.. "philosophy", dead native americans and being awake for 24 hours is taxing.

Good night ATS

originally posted by: dr1234
a reply to: AlephBet

I wasn't going to paste all that misrepresentated science, but I wanted to correct one grossly incorrect idea that I have seen a lot lately..

"consciousness collapses the wave function"

No, it does not. The act of observing collapses the wavefunction, but not by some jedi mind trick. This could be a laser beam simply determining location of a photon, it isn't consciousness as you (and many quacks) falsely assert.

I hate misrepresentated science, because to the layman it looks like real science.

Thank you for denying ignorance.The fact is you only addressed one issue of falsity however I understand why you only addressed one..if you addressed them all you'd be writing a volume.Disinformation is the root of all ignorance.

originally posted by: Sahabi
Why do we, all too often, focus our awareness on the messenger, rather than the message? Why do our conversations, discussions, and debates often deteriorate into personal attacks? Why do we defend and justify, instead of seeking mutual understanding? What is it that lures us into argument, instead of tempered dialogue?

Might I twist some phrases,
From someone else's dazes,
And tales of beauty and woe.

Most have a desire,
To not retire,
'Till they no longer feel the foe.

So here it comes,
The riddle of tongues,
Provoking all of this show.

I excuse my nature,
Just the way I am.
I'm confused,
And I was right.

You wouldn't understand,
I have a headache now.
Being awake is taxing,
Good night.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
This I cannot deny.

It would be odd,
If some poor sod,
Was full of anything but me.

originally posted by: Bluesma
I had fun musing.

You're not one to abuse,
The source of your muse,
So amuse the night away!

originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
This makes me curious, if you're not agnostic, and you're not an atheist, what are you then, pray tell?

I take it back,
I cut you some slack,
Your query is worth a sashay.

'Ole Les Mis,
Is taking the piss,
Out of our turds and way.

This subtle thrope,
Is using his throat,
To hear what you have to say.

In this thread on verse,
It would be perverse,
To obey the rules,
Hey!

To laugh at someone is fine,
To laugh at yourself is sublime,
To laugh at nothing is crime.

The body and the intellect,
You claim merely intersect,
I giggle at the nothing of your line.

The map is not the territory,
That is only part of the story,
The map is of the territory.

I repeat my self,
I repeat my help,
To clear the fog of our glasses,
Land Ho!

We can be such asses,
Building unnecessary chassis,
To putter our peddling along.

These boundaries you perceive,
A trace they do not leave,
When we take our language away.

I would be remiss,
If I did not insist,
On chuckling at touchy touché.

So next time you travel,
Send Les Mis a salvo,
You might hear him convey,
Hooray!