Public Education vs. Ignorant Parents

a reply to: xuenchen

Teachers do their jobs well. Their job is no longer to teach but to give students good grades and help them pass standardized tests. Maybe we should change things to focus on actual learning rather than having school be a litmus test for obedience and ability to bow to the status quo.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Utterly impossible, one, and most families aren't about education and critical thinking. The kids would actually be worse off

So under your current school model why is it that ethics arent taught, why is it that the status quo isnt challenged, why is it that there is no challenging of the "US versus the rest of the World (ie the enemy)" Why dont these enlighted souls coming out of your schools ask why America has to export its inflation so they have cheap clothing and food back in the states. What well rounded global citizens are you producing other than cannon fodder or consumers?

What are you crying about? The 5-10% home schoolers or the young earth creationist fundamentalists who think the world is only 6000 years old? I think your military-pharma lobbylist are more dangerous that some young earth creationist.

Like i said in a previous post when was the last time a US school went on strike over US involvement in Iraq.

Hang on, the modern "Rockefeller" education system has only had 110 years to get it right. Oh they got it right all right. You are part of the Statist solution lock stock and barrel

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

My point is that the issue of vaccines is not an education problem. You're the one that said it is.

My ideal teaching environment is one that focuses on learning rather than on rating students poorly to determine who gets opportunity and who doesn't.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
The problem is, you are assuming that parents magically have all of the training necessary to teach myriad subjects. They don't.

You see, education is an profession, not just knowing your kid and his or her strengths, needs, etc. There is a lot of knowledge needed not only on actual topics but also psychology, linguistics, pedagogy, and so on.

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: beezzer

Good on you.

As far as I'm concerned, home schooled kids are getting a better educational experience based on a one to one set up that is altered and tweaked to best fit that child.

The only people capable of determining those independent needs are the parents.

You can't teach a child individually in a classroom of 40 kids... no matter how dedicated and determined a teacher is. This is why so many kids are falling through the cracks and graduating high school with 5th grade reading comprehension.

No, I think they are saying a parent knows their child's modality, and easily teaches their child in light of who the child is instead of thinking all children learn the same way.

My child (now an adult) enjoyed home schooling, private, and public schooling. They left private to become home schooled and after a year and a half they jumped into public school. They were above grade level in all subjects, graduated with honors from both high school and university. They went on to graduate first in their class for their Masters.

Yes a parent can teach all those different subjects. And no the majority are not harming their children.

I will never forget 4th grade. As always I skimmed through the different textbooks to see what my child would be learning and discovered a lesson on AIDS. I was concerned about the lesson because it talked about sexual transmission. Many of my child's friends had yet learned about sex. My concern was what the parents needed to do to help prepare the children to receive the lesson. The teacher freaked out. Yelled at me saying she didn't know that was in there, and she wasn't teaching it. Then she took it before the Administration and had the Social Studies book removed from the school.

As a parent I prepared my child and taught the lesson myself. Ignorance is not only a parent problem. Sometimes teachers don't appreciate what they are told to teach.

a reply to: tavi45

My point is that the issue of vaccines is not an education problem

Ah the refuge of the weak. The "health dept" came into my classroom for the sake of the children. I had no say in it. I am only a teacher. Or are you going to deny that they dont force vaccinations at school. Funny I thought school was about learning not an uniformed human lab rat for guinea pigs/clinical trials.

a reply to: 2gd2btru

Great post. There's blame enough for everyone. I equate teaches to cops. There's still good ones but the culture and politics controlling the system selects for bad ones over good ones. We need to incentivize good teachers and remove or train bad ones. Parents need to get more involved and not expect teachers to perform magic. The students have to put more time into trying to learn rather than trying to just pass the next test.

It's a huge cluster# like any of the massively important issues relating to the common good. The system is broken and it all is related to the corruption in politics and culture by greed and worship of money.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

People will not have the ability to be self-actualized if they do not have access to enough 1) diversity of experience 2) diversity of people's and cultures 3) diversity of educational input.

Tell me a better place to get that in a structured way over 15 years.

Living in the city of London i could say living in the city of london. But i think your point is flawed to begin with. Firstly dont need to have met every type of person in the world to have a better chance in life or to use that cliched buzz-phraze you used "self - actualize", A) because i cant meet every type of person there is to meet society let alone the world and B) communities are diverse enough in my opinion, so i di t think the problem is exposure to diversity, o think that its the willingness to engage with society in the first place thats potential problem. Call it anti social or whatever you like. Its not an issue that goes away due to enrollment in an academic institution. If it is its because it would have dissappeared naturally anyway as that person lived out their life.

Your third vital ingredient to self actualisation: "diversity of educational input". There are many good regularly updated textbooks these days. Homeschoolers can easily buy these and they cover everything a school will teach. So thats that. And then you have the internet. Resources like youtube videos, Wikipedia, google, etc...


And then there's life. The place we all end up again after the the education system spits us out the other end after 12 long years of indocrination or longer... What about that place? Is there nowhere out there home schoolers can take their kids to learn in your part of the world? Not even an hours drive away? No after to school clubs? No sports clubs or anything like that for them to learn from their peers? I find that hard to beleive.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Again how is that something teachers are supposed to fix? Sounds like a political problem to me. Teachers aren't running schools anymore.

a reply to: tavi45

So no morals or ethics classes in a modern public education system. I'm glad my English teacher forced me to read Orwells 1984 at the age of 12. If you cant see the connection between enforced vaccines and education well I dont know what else I can say.

Feed them Soma (Aldous Huxley Brave New World)

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

So teachers should teach your view rather than the view that comes from official sources and actual scientists. Again how is this the teachers fault?

No morals or ethics. Again how is this the teachers fault? This isn't a schoolhouse from "Little House on the Prairie" where the teacher is the one running the show.

The whole western system is broken. Education issues are a symptom.

I'm tired of people complaining about how people ignore their pet issues.

Nothing is going to get solved anywhere in our society so long as we worship money and let the bankers and their minions run the show.

Blaming teachers for issues of vaccination is so meaningless. Feel free to keep pushing it but a teacher in a random public school can't change the pharmaceuticals industry or the opinion of the CDC or FDA or whoever decides that stuff.

My suggestion is you become a scientist and prove your beliefs if you care so much about vaccines. Or you could just go hang with Jennifer McCarthy or whatever her name is.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

So no morals or ethics classes in a modern public education system.

That is why the country is going to hell. It seems people like yourself want the school system to raise the children so parents don't have to be parents.

Morals and ethics are taught by the family that is their job. Lazy freaking parents that don't instil those things in their children had no business having children in the first place.

Expecting the school to do that has to be the most absurd thing I have heard in a long time.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Don't you know? Everything is someone else's fault. No one is capable of admitting fault or realizing their own flaws anymore. Everyone has an excuse.

Now this, i agree with. I myself am very much against the elitist military-industrial complex.

But again, can you show me ANY other education system in the US, including charters, home schools, or private schools, that don't generally teach the same brainwashed uncritical stuff?

Perhaps some parents don't. But again, most parents themselves are totally brainwashed. So them home schooling won't change anything on the status quo issue.

First, I am not aligned with the military-industrial complex. But, ignorant Americans of all kinds, including young Earth Creationists or anti-evidence anybody are dangerous to a functioning democracy. Not only that, they are far more likely to be manipulated by said military-industrial complex.

Just look at the Bush years. As far as foreign policy he was the worst we have had in a long time. He ruined America's reputation abroad, mainly through an illegal war of aggression (Iraq) and through instituting torture. To this day many of the Religious Right are all about supporting him, including his wars and torture.

Don't worry, I am also angry about Obama and his covert wars in Libya and Syria.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Utterly impossible, one, and most families aren't about education and critical thinking. The kids would actually be worse off

So under your current school model why is it that ethics arent taught, why is it that the status quo isnt challenged, why is it that there is no challenging of the "US versus the rest of the World (ie the enemy)" Why dont these enlighted souls coming out of your schools ask why America has to export its inflation so they have cheap clothing and food back in the states. What well rounded global citizens are you producing other than cannon fodder or consumers?

What are you crying about? The 5-10% home schoolers or the young earth creationist fundamentalists who think the world is only 6000 years old? I think your military-pharma lobbylist are more dangerous that some young earth creationist.

Like i said in a previous post when was the last time a US school went on strike over US involvement in Iraq.

Hang on, the modern "Rockefeller" education system has only had 110 years to get it right. Oh they got it right all right. You are part of the Statist solution lock stock and barrel

Well, clearly you have little experience with the education profession, relevant research, and so on.

In no way are the teachers the primary ones to blame for kids' problems.

One is the all of the socio-economic issues going on in a given country, from poverty to nutrition to community issues. Second is family support and yes, parenting. There is a huge amount of research on this.

Most teachers are not being given the power or ability to really change a lot. They also are usually underfunded, underpaid, and so on. You can't tell me it's a teachers fault when kids are plugged in that are barely literate, can't speak English after immigrating, are malnourished, are being abused like crazy at home, are already on drugs in 7th grade due to their gang or drug using family, or never disciplined at home and totally have horrible behavior. You can't tell me that it is the teacher's fault when the school hasn't paid for even textbooks for half of a year due to no funding, there are no supplies in the classroom, and the teacher has to pay for laboratory supplies out of their own paycheck.

Teachers are not making "big money." Those actually doing a good job work often 60 hours a week. Most now days have graduate degrees in education, which are professional degrees just like law or business. They get paid FAR less than the other professions (engineering, law, medicine, business, etc).

All of those industries pay far more starting and by the end.

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: tavi45
a reply to: xuenchen

Hehe my apologies. I just see you posting so much anti Democrat pro Republican stuff. My apologies. Are you independent?

What exactly did I deflect? People on here constantly use that term to invalidate things without responding to the point.

Let's abandon the partisan stuff. It's my fault for bringing it up.

Do you disagree with the point on personal responsibility? If so, why?

You mention personal responsibility in different situations, all apparently pointing at the student level and options parents have for schooling.

Assuming that's accurate, I would say personal responsibility starts at the educator level.

The educators are supposed to be teaching and administrating, not casting blame at parents and students.

The personal responsibility comes by example, as the educators are the ones getting paid the big money for "teaching".

Yet the educators keep an endless loop of blame on parents, parents of parents, parents of parents of parents etc. and students with an array of endless loop excuses for students' failures.

The educators are supposed to have answers and solutions for every possibility and situation.

Bureaucracy breeds anonymity and thus no personal responsibility, hence convenient excuses for failure.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: tavi45

So no morals or ethics classes in a modern public education system. I'm glad my English teacher forced me to read Orwells 1984 at the age of 12. If you cant see the connection between enforced vaccines and education well I dont know what else I can say.

Feed them Soma (Aldous Huxley Brave New World)

The thing is, part of education is to teach you how to make weighted analyses of evidence. Overall, the evidence across the world is that vaccines have helped people and communities, not the other way around. Overall, most seem safe. Overall, they have caused the near eradication in many countries of historically horrible diseases: polio, TB, etc. So when people like you spout of about vaccines and education, perhaps again it is you who needs to go back to evidence based analysis.

We get concerned when parents want to inculcate what sounds like paranoia and anti-science measures out of their own ignorance and fear, all the while claiming it is in fact scientists or schools "brainwashing their kids."

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Spare me the pathetic excuses.

The educator class of people are failing.

Masters of excuses for failure.

If they can't figure this out, who can?



OH Pleeezzzz

poor.begging.paupers

originally posted by: funkadeliaaaa
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

People will not have the ability to be self-actualized if they do not have access to enough 1) diversity of experience 2) diversity of people's and cultures 3) diversity of educational input.

Tell me a better place to get that in a structured way over 15 years.

Living in the city of London i could say living in the city of london. But i think your point is flawed to begin with. Firstly dont need to have met every type of person in the world to have a better chance in life or to use that cliched buzz-phraze you used "self - actualize", A) because i cant meet every type of person there is to meet society let alone the world and B) communities are diverse enough in my opinion, so i di t think the problem is exposure to diversity, o think that its the willingness to engage with society in the first place thats potential problem. Call it anti social or whatever you like. Its not an issue that goes away due to enrollment in an academic institution. If it is its because it would have dissappeared naturally anyway as that person lived out their life.

Your third vital ingredient to self actualisation: "diversity of educational input". There are many good regularly updated textbooks these days. Homeschoolers can easily buy these and they cover everything a school will teach. So thats that. And then you have the internet. Resources like youtube videos, Wikipedia, google, etc...


And then there's life. The place we all end up again after the the education system spits us out the other end after 12 long years of indocrination or longer... What about that place? Is there nowhere out there home schoolers can take their kids to learn in your part of the world? Not even an hours drive away? No after to school clubs? No sports clubs or anything like that for them to learn from their peers? I find that hard to beleive.

The point is obviously not to meet every person or travel to every country. HOWEVER, because we cannot do so learning thoroughly about as many as possible, including as many countries, culture, religions, and so on is the next best thing, combined with as much personal experience.

The City of London is not a structured experience. It is a good experience. But even that is not nearly enough. If someone did not have more education about the rest of the world they would have too small of a sample and a single city to measure things from. It's totally insufficient.

Diversity of exposure to myriad people's and ideas IS critical for someone to grow their intellect and understanding of the world. A lot of ignorant people of all kinds lack real and meaningful interaction with people of other backgrounds.

Most communities are NOT diversified enough to represent a microcosm of the whole globe. Hence, they do not serve as a sample of the world and replace learning about other communities.

2) There is no substitute for having not only exposure to a lot of people but input from many different teachers, not just your parents. Reading textbooks and watching videos online is quite simply insufficient, in the same way that a University of Phoenix degree will never be a substitute for the in person community of a university.

No it is not.

You attempted to substitute parental intelligence for real training in education. This is no different than claiming that a parent has all of the nursing skills necessary to treat their child because "they are their parents and are smart."

You probably think it is not a good analogy because again, you do not realize all of the professional training and skills a teacher has to have to be licensed AND especially, an effective teacher. Hence you think that it's just a walk in the park and any old smart parent can just pick it up.

If your parents in question do not have the requisite skills to construct curriculum but at best, follow some scripted curriculum, then they are not a real substitute for teachers. People at that level are like teachers aids or assistants. And if you are just following such curriculum and unable to know why and how such curriculum is constructed, then who are you to decide if it is actually scientifically optimal for your child's learning and future. How does such a parent actually choose between scripted curriculums? Who says they have any such expertise to do so?

originally posted by: CranialSponge
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Your argument would be like saying "ah because this person has an iq of 150 therefore they don't need to study medicine to be a practicing doctor, because they are smart!"

Illogical analogy.

You noted that someone could follow a curriculum.

Perhaps, but that's not even being a real educator. This is what I mean, a "real" educator could write the entire curriculum from scratch, something a random high iq parent would find very difficult to do.

That's what your degrees are for... to create an entire curriculum, have it passed by state/federal regulations... and then dole it out to the system to be utilized by educators to teach their students with.

You've created a bit of a conundrum with your own argument.

You must fit in real well with the Republicans and Fox News. All of that pro-elite, pro-rich people, anti-teacher bull.

And, you didn't address a single point I made, demonstrating that you have no response and again, don't know what you are talking about.

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Spare me the pathetic excuses.

The educator class of people are failing.

Masters of excuses for failure.

If they can't figure this out, who can?

OH Pleeezzzz

poor.begging.paupers

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Ug.

Another political reference.

Fail again and again.



What's the next excuse going to focus on?



It's not ignorant parents or ignorant students.

It's ignorant educators and administrators.

All they know is how to suck the money up in anonymity.