The Mysterious Underground Labyrinth of Hawara (Revisited)

originally posted by: jeep3r

originally posted by: AthlonSavage

Giza Plateu West - Eas / North- South ration 1415.5/1723 = 0.8215.
it could be a scaled prototype slab.

Im now wondering if there are corridors and chambers beneath the Giza pyramids.

Interesting idea ... I don't know if any related research has ever been conducted at the Giza plateau, but I would really like to see similar tests being done in and around that area (using ground-penetrating-radar).

Then, we would probably also know whether or not there are hidden chambers and/or passages beneath the Sphinx.

Yes a number of such tests were done and found fissures in the limestone of plateau. However, it might be useful to do again as the technology (and the software that analyzes it) has become more sophisticated.

originally posted by: EA006


Could be.

Like what?

Speculating, a precursor building at the same site that was built over.

This is absolutely fascinating.

I've always been intrigued with ancient cultures, especially Egypt.

A good question becomes though, if the labyrinth was truly as grand and mind-blowing as Herodotus said, what would have been its purpose?

originally posted by: jeep3r
Since 2008 we apparently have pretty conclusive evidence for a huge megalithic underground structure beneath the Hawara Necropolis in Egypt. This evidence is based on data from ground-penetrating-radar acquired by the Mataha-Expedition (link) in cooperation with the University of Gent and other official organizations.

The so-called Labyrinth of Egypt has been referenced by many ancient writers and is said to be truly monumental in dimensions and possibly(?) the key to proving the existence of a lost civilization preceding the ancient cultures associated with that area today. Before going into the details, here's a look at the Hawara Necropolis incl. the proposed labyrinth:

From the various authors who wrote about this alleged maze, I'd especially like to mention Herodotus, who claims to have seen the intact underground structure with his own eyes and whose description is rather mind-boggling:

Herodotus (ca. 484-430 BC), Excerpt from Histories, Book II, 148

This I have actually seen, a work beyond words. For if anyone put together the buildings of the Greeks and display of their labours, they would seem lesser in both effort and expense to this labyrinth. Even the pyramids are beyond words, and each was equal to many and mighty works of the Greeks. Yet the labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids.

(...) So I speak of the lower chambers from listening to others, but have myself seen the upper ones - beyond human labour.

/emphasis added/

So, are we here even talking about a "two-storied" labyrinth? One that, as Herodotus further explains, has massive roofs of stone? It is not out of the question that what egyptologist Flinders Petrie once described as an extensive artificial plateau at Hawara was, in fact, the roof construction of the labyrinth ...

There have also been attempts at visualizing the labyrinth as it existed in the time of Herodotus. Among them were those of Italian archaeologist Canina (see first image below) and a visual reconstruction by Athanasius Kircher, a German scholar engaging in Egyptology (second image below). These depictions could represent the two 'levels' of the labyrinth:

Image Source

Image Source


But back to the present: the ground-penetrating-radar expedition showed that there are indeed regular grid-like cavities below the sands of the Hawara Necropolis. Here goes a related excerpt of the results published on the Mataha Expedition website:

Mataha Expedition, Hawara 2008

Below the artificial stone surface appears (in spite of the turbid effect of the groundwater) at the depth of 8 to 12 meters a grid structure of gigantic size made of a very high resistivity material like granit stone.

This states the presence of a colossal archaeological feature below the labyrinth “foundation” zone of Petrie, which has to be reconsidered as the roof of the still existing labyrinth.

So why "no dig"? It's been 6 years since the results were in! Well, difficult to say, but it's interesting that Dr Zahi Hawass allegedly told members of the Mataha expedition to 'not publish' the data until further notice. But while no further information had ever been received (according to them), they decided to still publish their results on their website.

Unfortunately, the entrance of the Hawara pyramid is presently flooded with groundwater and mud (which is probably also true for the potential labyrinth). Moreover, a canal had been built in the area so that, today, the site is more or less divided into two sections.

In the end, the question remains: could this be the 'smoking gun' regarding a possible lost civilization in the remote past? Or is this rather another necropolis similar to that of Djoser, but perhaps more extensive? Whatever the case, I would like to leave you with a short but impressive videoclip summarizing the 'quest for the lost labyrinth':

And before I forget: the results and a more detailed analysis of the scientific data can be found in this PDF (16mb). Thanks for reading up to here, and I'm very much looking forward to your thoughts on this ... !

Sources & Links:
--------------------------------------------------------------
01. Labyrinth of Egypt
02. Article by Dr Robert Schoch
03. Video/Animation, Mataha Expedition
04. Article: The Egyptian Labyrinth
05. Hawara Entry on Wikipedia
06. Ancient Wisdom: The Lost Labyrinth
07. Virtual Exploration of the Labyrinth
08. References by Ancient Writers
09. The Labyrinth Search

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Harte

A below the water level excavation is difficult and expensive. I'm surprized that the original group didn't drop a test pit down to verify. That is the customary action. Given Egypt's recent troubles I can see why no large organization has tried to excavate there. New excavation take time to set up. I would suspect a survey party in the next 2-3 years to take a look (survey the possibility). I'm also surprized that the NRIAG - Ghent University/Kunst-Zicht A project funded by Louis De Cordier has not continued the work.

Unless Ibraham Mohammed wanted to save this prize for excavation by 'the home team'.

And that is a fair reason. If the complex is actually that vast or the labyrinth, and it is flooded, it would take a huge amount of money to drain enough of it to really explore right?

Can I ask you an honest question?

Do you work formally in anthropology, history, archaeology, or some other field (or teach any of them)? Or are you just a serious enthusiast? Because generally you seem to have a breadth of knowledge about it.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: AthlonSavage
I understand why there is a reluctance to dig up the past.

Lucius: Dr. Zaius, this is inexcusible!\
Why must knowledge stand still? What about the future?!
Dr. Zaius: I may just have saved it for you.
Dr. Zira: What will he find out there, doctor?
Dr. Zaius: His destiny.

Then why are there 1,000+ excavations going on world wide at this vary moment? Some 12,000-15,000 paper on a variety of subject but dealing in some way with archaeology and supporting sciences - if some one is reluctant - they don't seem to have told anyone else!

a reply to: jeep3r

WOW !
I never hear of this before your post. Very professionally done.
Thanks for sharing this incredible info.
I am an old man, and now I feel that we only know a little about who we are and where we came from. Some of you will live long enough to find out the real story of man.

a reply to: Quetzalcoatl14

Yes I would suspect they would do a limited survey to verify the finding of the first outfit and do an exploratory study, mainly to find out if what is under there is actually there and an long look at the hydrology/geology to see the best way to do a full scale excavation.

Then I would see who had the money (outside of Egypt) who would like to fund the expedition and has the background to do it in partnership with the Egyptians.

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
Can I ask you an honest question?

Do you work formally in anthropology, history, archaeology, or some other field (or teach any of them)? Or are you just a serious enthusiast? Because generally you seem to have a breadth of knowledge about it.

I was once an Archaeologist (trained as a Mayanist initially, then as a researcher and finally in Bronze age Cypriote studies), but left to pursue a different interest but have remained an amateur involved in it (going to excavations, doing shovel bumming, and helping to run field schools). I Worked in Mexico, Hawaii, Cyprus and all the ME states but Yemen and Iraq. Once the internet came about working to present factual info on archaeology - I also have an interest in alternative and fringe ideas - yes I would love for there to be an Atlantis type lost civ out there somewhere!

Amazing !

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14
Can I ask you an honest question?

Do you work formally in anthropology, history, archaeology, or some other field (or teach any of them)? Or are you just a serious enthusiast? Because generally you seem to have a breadth of knowledge about it.

I was once an Archaeologist (trained as a Mayanist initially, then as a researcher and finally in Bronze age Cypriote studies), but left to pursue a different interest but have remained an amateur involved in it (going to excavations, doing shovel bumming, and helping to run field schools). I Worked in Mexico, Hawaii, Cyprus and all the ME states but Yemen and Iraq. Once the internet came about working to present factual info on archaeology - I also have an interest in alternative and fringe ideas - yes I would love for there to be an Atlantis type lost civ out there somewhere!

Cool man. Yeah, I always wanted to be an archaeologist or anthropologist. I have always loved ancient cultures and history. Definitely over the years I have studied enough history and anthropology to be a well informed lay person, but not formally nor professionally to know probably the same level as you. I did study abroad in Guatemala and learned a lot about the Mayans especially. I've made it a goal to visit as many of the sites that are acclaimed as I can, from Mexico to India.

originally posted by: jeep3r
From the various authors who wrote about this alleged maze, I'd especially like to mention Herodotus

First it must be said that Herodotus is something of a red herring nobody really knows what to do with. He claims to have seen the Tower of Babel too. For all we know, this is antiquity we're talking about, age of the Seven Wonders and Archimedes, so who knows what was still around.

Now Herodoth describes a tomb complex layed out as a labyrinth with twelve roofed courtyards, six to the North and six to the South, with rooms on two levels, 3000 rooms all in all. According to my book, this structure (which he claims to have seen) was built to house the mummies of the linages of the "twelve kings" (see Histories II §147). The place is discribed as beyond the Lake of Moeris and very close to a place called Crocodilopolis. It must have been impressive for Herodotus says it defies anything he has seen in Greece and Egypt, pyramids and Acropolis included.

Continued (had to fly): Herodotus explains how the walls inside are filled with the usual paintings, hieroglyphs and murals, or "carvings of figures" as he says. He also goes on to say that the Egyptians in charge would under no circumstance let anyone down to the underground maze, because it housed the 12 kings who built the labyrinth and also the mummies of the sacred crocodiles (Rahab and Leviathan?).

§149 of Histories II also explains how nearby there is an artificial lake, 3600 stadia in perimeter (1 stadia is 185 meter) or "60 schoeni: as long as the coastline of Egypt itself" and it is 50 fathoms (300 feet) deep. Right in the middle of the lake are two pyramids, 50 fathoms above water and 50 more below, so all in all the two pyramids are 100 fathoms* or 600 feet high(!) in total. In comparison the Great Giza Pyramid is 481 feet. These two bleeders beat it by plenty. Both are "crowned" with a stone figure seated on a throne. The water in the lake is delivered via a network of manmade canals, the place itself is very dry and this is the only source of water. For six months water runs towards the lake, the other half it runs back to the Nile. When the lake is on it's dryest, the fish deposited on the bottom was valued a talent of silver, that's 34.2 kilos or 75lb 6oz

*) These are the length unites used by Herodotus:
100 fathoms = 1 Stadium = 6 plethra
1 fathom = 6 feet = 4 cubits = 24 palms

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

First it must be said that Herodotus is something of a red herring nobody really knows what to do with. He claims to have seen the Tower of Babel too. For all we know, this is antiquity we're talking about, age of the Seven Wonders and Archimedes, so who knows what was still around.

That extra info is really welcome, thanks for adding those details. And just for us to have an image of our primary (but not only) source, here's a roman copy of his bust:

Herodotus (Excerpt from Wikipedia):

While "The Histories" were occasionally criticized in antiquity, modern historians and philosophers generally take a positive view. Herodotus still serves as the primary, and often only, source for events in the Greek world, Persian Empire, and the region generally in the two centuries leading up until his own day.

So, I also have to wonder what else he saw back in the day. Fortunately, there are also other ancient writers referring to the labyrinth, and of course the radar-data from 2008 making an excavation worth our while, I guess. Again, thanks for the additional details ... !

originally posted by: Quetzalcoatl14

... I've made it a goal to visit as many of the sites that are acclaimed as I can, from Mexico to India.

A good idea and one I did myself. If you have a job skill that transports over seas do so working overseas gives you a larger income, more vacation time and best yet it is easier to get to the main sites of interest. If you have no set profession yet consider becoming an ESL English teacher, native speakers are always in demand to teach that subject in foreign countries.

originally posted by: jeep3r
That extra info is really welcome, thanks for adding those details.

Keine Problëm, soldier.

So, I also have to wonder what else he saw back in the day.

You should get a copy of his works in book shape. And thanks to this thread and the verse in question, what appears to be one of the only real documentation I have found, of manmade lakes, capable of storing enough water to Flood the Nile at will (like Moses demonstrated). There were probably several such artificial water magasines around Egypt, where there is now desert, according to Hermes and others, there were once endless green pastures, and like today, the Nile was kept in check, only instead of damming the Nile at Aswan for turning the current into electricity, the ancient Egyptians dug canals and excavated giant lakes and structures for storing and using the massive floods. The Great Pyramid was designed and built to be Hermetically sealed (pun intended), thus making it a perfect flood shelter for the Egyptian elite, in the event the mighty god-like Flood-weapon would be released.

The most revered regalium of the Egyptian royals was the broken reed-staff. It symbolises how the Pharaoh held the power of God in his hands, when the Nile raged at it's worst, even the sturdy papyrus reeds growing along the river broke. The Ankh also shows this power with the Pharao, the Ankh is a Real Key that was used to turn the flood gates of these lakes, releasing all the water in a few hours. Back then, rivers like the Nile, Euphrates and Tigris were weapons of mass destruction, so while you're at it, buying a copy of Herodotus' Histories, toss in a book on top containing the Epic of Atrahasis. It describes how the ancient kings turned themselves into gods by controlling the forces of nature, in this case the mighty Mesopotamian rivers. Added: First wave was to send disease down river. Second wave was drought. Third wave was, you guessed it, the Flood.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hmmmm

The Great Pyramid was designed and built to be Hermetically sealed (pun intended), thus making it a perfect flood shelter for the Egyptian elite.

Okay and you base that on? May I also presume you have never been to Cairo? If you had you might have noted the Mokattam hills, to the SE of the city, where the citadel of Saladin now sits. I believe that location is higher than pyramids.

The question in my mind would be why would you build a leaky artificial cave when you had a perfectly good hill nearby - and others, even higher, not much father away?

originally posted by: Hanslune
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hmmmm

The Great Pyramid was designed and built to be Hermetically sealed (pun intended), thus making it a perfect flood shelter for the Egyptian elite.

Okay and you base that on? May I also presume you have never been to Cairo? If you had you might have noted the Mokattam hills, to the SE of the city, where the citadel of Saladin now sits. I believe that location is higher than pyramids.

==> www.cheops-pyramide.ch...

The fact, that even in the 12th century most of the outer surface stones still existed (observed by Abd al-Latif) shows, how lasting and admirable the Egyptian architectures built. The beautiful outer stones were very popular and were removed from the pyramids bit by bit and used as building material for mosques and houses in Cairo. But even in 1639 the Oxford astronomy professor John Greaves wrote, that the whole face of Khafre's pyramid except the southern side was still entirely intact, but at that time the stones of the pyramid of Khufu had already been removed

The Great Pyramid was designed to be completely waterproof, and the outer casing was completely smooth with no jagged edges. Pic: doernenburg.alien.de... (found via the same source as ex quote above).

If the Nile was unharnessed, the annual floods due to the Monsoon further south towards the Equator would destroy anything built in the Nile valley except perhaps for the pyramids and a few other structures like the Sphynx. It was built smooth and waterproof for a reason. Let's say there was an invading force coming in, and the elite would retreat inside the pyramid and seal it off, and they would stay there until they had washed the invading force to the Sea after having blown the trumpet or whatever they did to signal up stream from one watcher to the next, until the message reached the people at the gates who would then take their ankhs and open the gates and unleash the Leviathan.

The question in my mind would be why would you build a leaky artificial cave when you had a perfectly good hill nearby - and others, even higher, not much father away?

For strategic reasons. And not leaky, see above. Waterproof. Don't forget that the pyramid, if closed up properly or accessed through some undiscovered underground maze leading to the Pit or similar-- the pyramid is an unmatched fortress where given they had supplies, could protect them for quite some time. If ISIL came to your hometown and you had the choice between hiding inside a sealed up fortress and gathering on top of some height outside city centre, what would you choose? Never mind you'd have the king and queen to account for...

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


The Great Pyramid was designed to be completely waterproof, and the outer casing was completely smooth with no jagged edges.

One could say that for most tombs but the old original entrance was not provided with any water proofing, nor the mortuary or valley temple, so I don't get the point.

You did not respond to my comment on Mokattam hills being a far superior place to escape rising waters and more importantly had could resources of water and AIR, if the pyramid was water proofed as you claim - where did the air come from?

If the Nile was unharnessed, the annual floods due to the Monsoon further south towards the Equator would destroy anything built in the Nile valley except perhaps for the pyramids and a few other structures like the Sphynx. It was built smooth and waterproof for a reason. Let's say there was an invading force coming in, and the elite would retreat inside the pyramid and seal it off, and they would stay there until they had washed the invading force to the Sea after having blown the trumpet or whatever they did to signal up stream from one watcher to the next, until the message reached the people at the gates who would then take their ankhs and open the gates and unleash the Leviathan.

The AE do not record that they did anything like that. I would suggest you look at the what the physical look of the Nile is above the delta, it is a river flowing in a channel with cliffs on both sides.

For strategic reasons. And not leaky, see above. Waterproof. Don't forget that the pyramid, if closed up properly or accessed through some undiscovered underground maze leading to the Pit or similar-- the pyramid is an unmatched fortress where given they had supplies, could protect them for quite some time. If ISIL came to your hometown and you had the choice between hiding inside a sealed up fortress and gathering on top of some height outside city centre, what would you choose? Never mind you'd have the king and queen to account for...

er, no it was trap a self made prison. Figure out if you want the entire volume of air contained within and how long it would last with say 100 people.

The hill top, going into a 'cave' with one entrance is never a good idea. I cannot imagine the effect of smoky fire set at the front entrance or just sealing it up, laughing and leaving.

originally posted by: Hanslune

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


The Great Pyramid was designed to be completely waterproof, and the outer casing was completely smooth with no jagged edges.

One could say that for most tombs but the old original entrance was not provided with any water proofing, nor the mortuary or valley temple, so I don't get the point.

You did not respond to my comment on Mokattam hills being a far superior place to escape rising waters and more importantly had could resources of water and AIR, if the pyramid was water proofed as you claim - where did the air come from?

Like I said, for strategic reasons. Emptying a deadly wave from a bassin like the Lake of Moeris could last mere hours until water level came back to normal. We are not talking about the annual Monsoon floods, but as the Nile used as a strategic weapon of mass destruction, like how Moses demonstrates it (he was infact raised an Egyptian prince) in Exodus when he wipes out an Egyptian army in an instant by passing a river crossing between two turnable walls.

If the Nile was unharnessed, the annual floods due to the Monsoon further south towards the Equator would destroy anything built in the Nile valley except perhaps for the pyramids and a few other structures like the Sphynx. It was built smooth and waterproof for a reason. Let's say there was an invading force coming in, and the elite would retreat inside the pyramid and seal it off, and they would stay there until they had washed the invading force to the Sea after having blown the trumpet or whatever they did to signal up stream from one watcher to the next, until the message reached the people at the gates who would then take their ankhs and open the gates and unleash the Leviathan.

The AE do not record that they did anything like that. I would suggest you look at the what the physical look of the Nile is above the delta, it is a river flowing in a channel with cliffs on both sides.

Yes, today that is what the Nile looks like. After the construction of the Great Aswan Dam. Back then things were quite different. During the annual floodings, nilometers along the river shows the river could rise by more than 15 meters above normal level. Even higher, but the nilometers don't go higher. Also keep in mind that back then the whole valley and even deep into what is now desert, they transported water in canals and waterways. With artificial lakes like the Lake of Moeris to store the Monsoon floods. According to Herodotus, water would run in to the Lake of Moeris from the Nile during flood season, and emptied throughout the year via canals to an elaboraste irrigation system as far West as Libya.

For strategic reasons. And not leaky, see above. Waterproof. Don't forget that the pyramid, if closed up properly or accessed through some undiscovered underground maze leading to the Pit or similar-- the pyramid is an unmatched fortress where given they had supplies, could protect them for quite some time. If ISIL came to your hometown and you had the choice between hiding inside a sealed up fortress and gathering on top of some height outside city centre, what would you choose? Never mind you'd have the king and queen to account for...

er, no it was trap a self made prison. Figure out if you want the entire volume of air contained within and how long it would last with say 100 people.

The hill top, going into a 'cave' with one entrance is never a good idea. I cannot imagine the effect of smoky fire set at the front entrance or just sealing it up, laughing and leaving.

Again, you can't possibly have read what I wrote. We are not talking about months of flooding, perhaps mere hours.

Since Hawass has no power in Egypt, and problems of his own with the new government. Let us leave him out of this conversation. Most likely, since the reports say the roof was of one piece, the structure was dug out beneath the slab of rock, now the roof. Since, the Egyptian authorities reported the discovery of a temple some meters beneath a house, and under the water table, thing just might get interesting. Of course, anyone dealing with the present Egyptian government will undoubtedly become the newest target of the Muslim Brotherhood and their associates. It may take some time to get everything out.

Seemed like those egyptians loved building giant things.