Pope says evolution doesn't mean there's no God

a reply to: LOSTinAMERICA

I forgot that people had no morals before religion came around and it will die when religion dies. /end sarcasm

There are many agnostic people who have morals and there are many spiritual people who have morals. I think we'll be fine when religion dies.

Besides religion has been holding back our civilization in it's dogmatic ways for far too long. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages never would have happened and we'd be at least a Class 1 Civilization.

Religion has been corrupted and twisted into this horrible mess and it is time that it dies. A lot of people realize this and have left religion for Spirituality, which is so much better.

originally posted by: Sabiduria
First I'll start with Speciation:

Example one:

Two strains of Drosophila paulistorum developed hybrid sterility of male offspring between 1958 and 1963. Artificial selection induced strong intra-strain mating preferences. (Test for speciation: sterile offspring and lack of interbreeding affinity.)
Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila", Nature 23:289-292

Example two:

Evidence that a species of fireweed formed by doubling of the chromosome count, from the original stock. (Note that polyploids are generally considered to be a separate "race" of the same species as the original stock, but they do meet the criteria which you suggested.) (Test for speciation: cannot produce offspring with the original stock.)
Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)", Evolution 21:713-719

Example three:

Rapid speciation of the Faeroe Island house mouse, which occurred in less than 250 years after man brought the creature to the island. (Test for speciation in this case is based on morphology. It is unlikely that forced breeding experiments have been performed with the parent stock.)
Stanley, S., 1979. Macroevolution: Pattern and Process, San Francisco, W.H. Freeman and Company. p. 41

Example four:

Formation of five new species of cichlid fishes which formed since they were isolated less than 4000 years ago from the parent stock, Lake Nagubago. (Test for speciation in this case is by morphology and lack of natural interbreeding. These fish have complex mating rituals and different coloration. While it might be possible that different species are inter-fertile, they cannot be convinced to mate.)
Mayr, E., 1970. Populations, Species, and Evolution, Massachusetts, Harvard University Press. p. 348

Some more observed speciation

Now for MacroEvoultion:

Example 1: bird-reptiles

In the case just mentioned, we have found a quite complete set of dinosaur-to-bird transitional fossils with no morphological "gaps" (Sereno 1999), represented by Eoraptor, Herrerasaurus, Ceratosaurus, Allosaurus, Compsognathus, Sinosauropteryx, Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, Velociraptor, Sinovenator, Beipiaosaurus, Sinornithosaurus, Microraptor, Archaeopteryx, Rahonavis, Confuciusornis, Sinornis, Patagopteryx, Hesperornis, Apsaravis, Ichthyornis, and Columba, among many others (Carroll 1997, pp. 306-323; Norell and Clarke 2001; Sereno 1999; Xu et al. 1999; Xu et al. 2000; Xu et al. 2002). All have the expected possible morphologies (see Figure 3.1.1 from Prediction 3.1 for a few examples), including organisms such as Protarchaeopteryx, Caudipteryx, and the famous "BPM 1 3-13" (a dromaeosaur from China now named Cryptovolans pauli; Czerkas et al. 2002 ) which are flightless bipedal dinosaurs with modern-style feathers (Chen et al. 1998 ; Qiang et al. 1998; Norell et al. 2002). Additionally, several similar flightless dinosaurs have been found covered with nascent evolutionary precursors to modern feathers (branched feather-like integument indistinguishable from the contour feathers of true birds), including Sinornithosaurus ("Bambiraptor"), Sinosauropteryx, Beipiaosaurus, Microraptor, and an unnamed dromaeosaur specimen, NGMC 91, informally called "Dave" (Ji et al. 2001). The All About Archaeopteryx FAQ gives a detailed listing of the various characters of Archaeopteryx which are intermediate between reptiles and modern birds.

One of the most celebrated examples of transitional fossils is our collection of fossil hominids (see Figure 1.4.4 below). Based upon the consensus of numerous phylogenetic analyses, Pan troglodytes (the chimpanzee) is the closest living relative of humans. Thus, we expect that organisms lived in the past which were intermediate in morphology between humans and chimpanzees. Over the past century, many spectacular paleontological finds have identified such transitional hominid fossils.

29+ Evidences for Marcoevolution

Anything else I can help you find?

That's all B.S. conjecture. Charles Darwin admitted that fossils of the transitional links between species would have to be found in order to prove his "Theory of Evolution." Well, these transitional links have never been found. We only find individual species.

We are told by evolutionists that a fish wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature. So let's examine this idea. OK, a fish wiggles out of the sea and onto the land, but he can't breathe air. This could happen. Fish do stupid things at times. Whales keep swimming up onto the beach where they die. Do you think the whales are trying to expedite a multi-million generation plan to grow legs? That concept is stupid.

a reply to: GnosticWay

A: Did you look at the sites or just what I quoted?

B: Darwin's Theory is not, and I will repeat, NOT, what scientists use for Evolution today. As we have learned more and found more fossils, the theory of evolution also changes along side with it.

Other examples of things changing as we learn them:

Basic mathematics said that π was calculated using fractions such as 22/7 and other rational numbers are commonly used to approximate π. That worked a bit but not completely.

For thousands of years, mathematicians have attempted to extend their understanding of π, sometimes by computing its value to a high degree of accuracy. Before the 15th century mathematicians such as Archimedes and Liu Hui used geometrical techniques, based on polygons, to estimate the value of π. Starting around the 15th century, new algorithms based on infinite series revolutionized the computation of π. In the 20th and 21st centuries mathematicians and computer scientists discovered new approaches that, when combined with increasing computational power, extended the decimal representation of π to, as of late 2013, over 12 trillion (1013) digits. Scientific applications generally require no more than 40 digits of π so the primary motivation for these computations is the human desire to break records. However, the extensive calculations involved have been used to test supercomputers and high-precision multiplication algorithms.

Technically Issac Newton did not got the theory of gravity fully correct. It has since been refined, like the theory of Evolution, but the equation we use now, all though based on his work, is not the original theory at the basic level that Newton had it at.

Just like with the theory of gravity and the mathematical theory of π, the theory of evolution has changed since it was first theorized.

originally posted by: GnosticWay
We are told by evolutionists that a fish wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature. So let's examine this idea. OK, a fish wiggles out of the sea and onto the land, but he can't breathe air. This could happen. Fish do stupid things at times. Whales keep swimming up onto the beach where they die. Do you think the whales are trying to expedite a multi-million generation plan to grow legs? That concept is stupid.

You need to ignore these "evolutionists" if they told you that a fish simply wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature. If this were true, rather than being a nonsensical halfwitted lie, then evolution would be monumentally controversial. These "evolutionists" you are buying into must be creationist. They frequently drool out retarded nonsense about evolution, due to being hopelessly ignorant of the subject.

a reply to: GnosticWay

Now I know you didn't read the link I provided you with, otherwise you wouldn't have just said what you did.

Living whales and dolphins found with hindlimbs:

Probably the most well known case of atavism is found in the whales. According to the standard phylogenetic tree, whales are known to be the descendants of terrestrial mammals that had hindlimbs. Thus, we expect the possibility that rare mutant whales might occasionally develop atavistic hindlimbs. In fact, there are many cases where whales have been found with rudimentary atavistic hindlimbs in the wild (see Figure 2.2.1; for reviews see Berzin 1972, pp. 65-67 and Hall 1984, pp. 90-93). Hindlimbs have been found in baleen whales (Sleptsov 1939), humpback whales (Andrews 1921) and in many specimens of sperm whales (Abel 1908; Berzin 1972, p. 66; Nemoto 1963; Ogawa and Kamiya 1957; Zembskii and Berzin 1961). Most of these examples are of whales with femurs, tibia, and fibulae; however, some even include feet with complete digits.

For example, Figure 2.2.1 shows the bones from the atavistic legs of a humpback whale. These bones are the remnants of one of two symmetrical hind-limbs found protruding from the ventral side of a female humpback whale, captured by a whaling ship from the Kyuquot Station near the west coast of Vancouver Island, British Columbia, in July 1919. Two officials of the Consolidated Whaling Company were understandably impressed by this discovery, and they removed one of the legs and presented the skeletal remains to the Provincial Museum in Victoria, B.C. (The other leg was evidently taken as a "souvenir" by crew members of the whaling ship). The museum's director, Francis Kermode, presented the bones to Roy Chapman Andrews from the American Museum of Natural History (AMNH) in New York. Andrews reported the findings, along with photographs of the whale from the whaling crew, in American Museum Novitates, the journal of the AMNH. Andrews identified in the remains a shrunken cartiliginous femur, tibia, tarsus, and metatarsal. Both legs initially were over four feet long and covered in normal blubber and skin. For comparison, an average adult female humpback is around 45 feet long. The femur, composed of unossified cartilage, had shrunken from 15 inches to 4.5 inches. When attached to the whale, the femur was completely inside the body cavity and attached to the pelvic rudiments (humpback whales have vestiges of a pelvis inside the abdominal wall). This extraordinary finding is unlikely to be repeated, as the International Whaling Commission gave humpback whales worldwide protection status in 1966, after sixty years of uncontrolled human predation had decimated the population.

On October 28, 2006, Japanese fishermen captured a four-finned dolphin off the coast of western Japan, and donated the whale to the Taiji Whaling Museum where it is currently being studied. This bottlenose dolphin has an extra set of hindlimbs, two well-formed palm-sized flippers that move and flap like the normal fore-flippers (see Figure 2.2.2). As with other atavistic structures, these limbs are likely the result of a rare mutation that allows an underlying, yet cryptic, developmental pathway to become reactivated. These limbs are prima facie evidence of the dolphin's four-limbed ancestry, as predicted from the common ancestry of dolphins and other land-dwelling mammals.

29+ evidences of Marcoevolution

originally posted by: GnosticWay
We are told by evolutionists that a fish wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature. So let's examine this idea. OK, a fish wiggles out of the sea and onto the land, but he can't breathe air. This could happen. Fish do stupid things at times. Whales keep swimming up onto the beach where they die. Do you think the whales are trying to expedite a multi-million generation plan to grow legs? That concept is stupid.

Walking fish

Secondly, every fossil is a transitional fossil.
Third, Macro and Micro evolution are the same damn thing and I'm not going to explain why for the 100TH time on this site

a reply to: GnosticWay

As for Transitional Fossils that you claim don't exist. Oh and please actually read this article. When you don't you are proving that you want to remain ignorant to the truth and evidence in front of you. That you are too afraid to change your beliefs despite all the evidence that tells you that your beliefs are wrong.

Ideally, this list would only recursively include 'true' transitionals, fossils representing ancestral species from which later groups evolved, but most if not all, of the fossils shown here represent extinct side branches, more or less closely related to the true ancestor. They will all include details unique to their own line as well. Fossils having relatively few such traits are termed "transitional", while those with a host of traits found neither in the ancestral or derived group are called "intermediate". Since all species will always be subject to natural selection, the very term "transitional fossil" is essentially a misconception. It is however a commonly used term and a useful concept in evolutionary biology. The fossils listed represent significant steps in the evolution of major features in various lines and therefore fit the common usage of the phrase.

-Nautiloids to ammonoids
-Cephalopods
-Evolution of insects
-Evolution of spiders
-Invertebrates to fish
-Chondrichthyes
-Bony Fish
-Fish to tetrapods
-Amphibians to amniotes (early reptiles)
-Turtles
-From lizards to snakes
- Lizards
- Pterosaurs
- Archosaurs to dinosaurs
- Dinosauria
- Dinosaurs to birds
- Bird evolution
- Synapsid ("mammal-like reptiles") to mammals
- Evolution of mammals
- Early artiodactylans to whales (evolution of whales)
- Evolution of sirenians
- Evolution of the pinnipeds
- Evolution of the horse
- Human evolution

List of Transitional Fossils

Um....this isn't new Catholic views, and is written in footnotes in the their bibles when I grew up and in books on their shelves. Most things are but metaphors in the bible and evolution and creation go hand in hand. Evolution is how God creates whole systems and the writings are NOT literal. Catholicism is NOT fundamental Christianity but is a kind of toe in to gnosticism, who they persecuted because they try to blend it and make metaphors OK for some things and make it literal for others to hold their false power.

All religions are idolotry and all churchs and temples and mosques the same. If you Love God, help your neighbor as yourself for we are the Church and Temple, especially when we transform lower beast mind instincts and selfishness into Higher Mind and Caring and Compassion. Then our bodies transform from beast to Church. Now there is some true gnosis for you!

Looks like we have another guy that knows nothing about science but thinks he knows more than evolutionary biologists on the topic arguing the same played out nonsensical points.

originally posted by: GnosticWay
You speak of micro-Evolution, adaptation. Yes, there is evidence for these, but macro-evolution?

Micro evolution IS evolution. There is no difference between micro and macro, only the time frame. Do you have a reason why genetic mutations cannot add up over time? To make this claim you must or you must have evidence to suggest the process would be any different whatsoever. It's not.

The fossil record does not bear out in accordance with such, as Darwin himself pointed out.

FALSE. and what Darwin pointed out is irrelevant because that was 150+ years ago. If you aren't arguing modern evolutionary synthesis then you aren't saying anything.

In the absence of the fossil record for macro-evolution, the whole theory falls apart.

FALSE. There is no absence of anything. The fossil record doesn't have everything to ever live on earth but it has TONS of specimen that show slow change over time, including multiple transitional (intermediary) species.

The Permian explosion itself throws evolutionary theory completely out the window. It just doesn't bear up to close scrutiny.

FALSE. Evolution does not follow your perceived timeline. In fact, it doesn't follow any timeline at all, except for the environment. Now, if you have science and/or math to present that shows life couldn't evolve as it did during that 20-40 million year window, then please present it. A fast changing environment will lead to faster evolution, and that is proven by the seemingly large changes from extinction level events.

life forms adapt their environment over time, but there has never been any fossils found of one species changing into another species.

What do you mean by "changing into another species". This has been shown dozens of times, and been replicated in a lab. There have never been any species found in the wrong fossil layer. If species cannot change into other species as you suggest, then surely you have a valid reason as to why creatures that exist today have never been found in older fossil layers (minus a few species like crocodiles and white sharks that have lived here for longer than most other lifeforms in their current form).

The would be fossils of half one species, half another and there just aren't any.

FALSE. Intermediary species are not half one species and half another. That is nonsensical. It is small changes between species that add up over time. Evolution doesn't follow a set plan. Sometimes it will go in one direction for millions of years and then suddenly head a different one when the environment changes. Birds from dinosaurs is a perfect example of this. Any half and half creature found would actually debunk evolution, because that's not what it suggests in the least. There may be a few creatures that appear this way, but it's not the norm.

The change would take a long time and the fossil record would show the change in numerous examples and that's just not what we see at all. Not even close.

Your understanding of how evolution works is abysmal. Please read a book or watch a free online lecture so that you don't sound so ignorant next time. Another stubborn religious fundamentalist.

That's all B.S. conjecture. Charles Darwin admitted that fossils of the transitional links between species would have to be found in order to prove his "Theory of Evolution." Well, these transitional links have never been found. We only find individual species.

LMAO at calling links to scientific experiments conjecture. But the bible knows all right? Darwin was 150 years ago, and dozens of transitional links have been found since. Stop perpetuating lies!

We are told by evolutionists that a fish wiggled out of the sea onto dry land and became a land creature.

Another lie. And it's "evolutionary biologist", and not a single one says that a fish wiggled out of the sea and magically breathed air. Stop using creationist defined terms to slander scientists. Evolution is a slow long process not a sudden one. Stop regurgitating arguments from lying creationist websites. Read a science book. Maybe you have heard of amphibians?

My my my, how the boastful and wrathful have fallen so low to use a heretic word like evolution.

If the church really wanted to increase its popularity again, start accepting gays and women into your flock.

O and execute any pedophile for disgracing Jesus divine....whatever.

Keep up with the times dammit.

a reply to: GnosticWay

That's all B.S. conjecture. Charles Darwin admitted that fossils of the transitional links between species would have to be found in order to prove his "Theory of Evolution." Well, these transitional links have never been found. We only find individual species.

Yes, because paleontology in particular and science in general stopped 155 years ago when Darwin wrote On The Origin Of Species.

First of all, here's what Darwin actually had to say on the matter:

But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?It will be more convenient to discuss this question in the chapter on the Imperfection of the Geological Record; and I will here only state that I believe the answer mainly lies in the record being incomparably less perfect than is generally supposed. The crust of the earth is a vast museum; but the natural collections have been imperfectly made, and only at long intervals of time.

Darwin isn't claiming that there are no fossils of transitional species, he's rightfully pointing out that there aren't as many as we would hope for. He later goes on to say:

These causes*, taken conjointly, will to a large extent explain why -- though we do find many links -- we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all extinct and existing forms by the finest graduated steps. It should also be constantly borne in mind that any linking variety between two forms, which might be found, would be ranked, unless the whole chain could be perfectly restored, as a new and distinct species; for it is not pretended that we have any sure criterion by which species and varieties can be discriminated.

(Emphasis mine.) And when he says "causes", he's referring to the fact that we have not (and will never find) a complete fossil record because the conditions that are required for permineralization are pretty specific.

Please keep in mind that the genetic evidence is so voluminous that evolution would still be the dominant theory of biological diversity, even in the complete evidence of a fossil record.

originally posted by: Unity_99
Um....this isn't new Catholic views, and is written in footnotes in the their bibles when I grew up and in books on their shelves. Most things are but metaphors in the bible and evolution and creation go hand in hand. Evolution is how God creates whole systems and the writings are NOT literal. Catholicism is NOT fundamental Christianity but is a kind of toe in to gnosticism, who they persecuted because they try to blend it and make metaphors OK for some things and make it literal for others to hold their false power.

All religions are idolotry and all churchs and temples and mosques the same. If you Love God, help your neighbor as yourself for we are the Church and Temple, especially when we transform lower beast mind instincts and selfishness into Higher Mind and Caring and Compassion. Then our bodies transform from beast to Church. Now there is some true gnosis for you!

Our bodies transform from beast to Church? LMAO. I'll take the non-human animals over the Church any day.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: Unity_99
Um....this isn't new Catholic views, and is written in footnotes in the their bibles when I grew up and in books on their shelves. Most things are but metaphors in the bible and evolution and creation go hand in hand. Evolution is how God creates whole systems and the writings are NOT literal. Catholicism is NOT fundamental Christianity but is a kind of toe in to gnosticism, who they persecuted because they try to blend it and make metaphors OK for some things and make it literal for others to hold their false power.

All religions are idolotry and all churchs and temples and mosques the same. If you Love God, help your neighbor as yourself for we are the Church and Temple, especially when we transform lower beast mind instincts and selfishness into Higher Mind and Caring and Compassion. Then our bodies transform from beast to Church. Now there is some true gnosis for you!

Our bodies transform from beast to Church? LMAO. I'll take the non-human animals over the Church any day. Humans have to be the most self-deluded species on the planet.

originally posted by: Tangerine
Our bodies transform from beast to Church? LMAO. I'll take the non-human animals over the Church any day. Humans have to be the most self-deluded species on the planet.

Bingo. This is why I choose cats. I trust a cat or dog over pretty much any human I have ever met outside of family and close friends. A cat isn't going to torture you for not following its personal view of the world or take over your land because of "divine" right. The cat knows its place and stays loyal. The whole bible verse about the animals and plants all being put here strictly to serve man in any way he wants is one of the most dangerous and delusional scriptures ever written. Shame on whoever wrote that egotistical nonsense.

It's almost exclusively because of that verse that cows and chickens live lives of torture for man's over indulgence and corporate money interests are considered more important than the future of the planet. The law of abundance is bunk. It may have been legit when the human population was around 10,000, but there are definitely finite resources. Nothing lasts forever, and the worst part of all is that it's the religious fundamentalists that breed like jackrabbits and pollute the human race with their ignorance.

a reply to: GnosticWay

Have you ever stop to consider the different stages a human goes through? from sperm to fetus to toddler to fully grown human. Evolution only tries to explain this same development from outside the womb.

a reply to: Barcs

The law of abundance is bunk. It may have been legit when the human population was around 10,000, but there are definitely finite resources. Nothing lasts forever, and the worst part of all is that it's the religious fundamentalists that breed like jackrabbits and pollute the human race with their ignorance.

Sorry but you are wrong, there is abundance, we've just been brainwashed into believing there isn't. We aren't utilizing the things we do have in abundance like wind, geothermal energy & the Sun.

Switzerland is trying out geothermal energy
Swiss Federal Office of Energy SFOE

We can feed everyone around the world if we combine Aquaponic food farms with maximizing existing cropland:
How existing cropland could feed billions more

originally posted by: Sabiduria
a reply to: Barcs

The law of abundance is bunk. It may have been legit when the human population was around 10,000, but there are definitely finite resources. Nothing lasts forever, and the worst part of all is that it's the religious fundamentalists that breed like jackrabbits and pollute the human race with their ignorance.

Sorry but you are wrong, there is abundance, we've just been brainwashed into believing there isn't. We aren't utilizing the things we do have in abundance like wind, geothermal energy & the Sun.

Switzerland is trying out geothermal energy
Swiss Federal Office of Energy SFOE

We can feed everyone around the world if we combine Aquaponic food farms with maximizing existing cropland:
How existing cropland could feed billions more

There isn't abundance of everything. That was the point I was trying to make. Oil is finite. Many species are being driven to extinction because we use them in excess. This is why I'm saying that bible verse is so detrimental, because it makes people feel like they are above all other life and can do whatever they want with it. Obviously there are resources that seem to be abundant but we aren't utilizing them on a mass level yet. It would be nice, but right now we are burning through many limited resources like there is no tomorrow.

originally posted by: GnosticWay

You speak of micro-Evolution, adaptation. Yes, there is evidence for these, but macro-evolution? The fossil record does not bear out in accordance with such, as Darwin himself pointed out. In the absence of the fossil record for macro-evolution, the whole theory falls apart. The Permian explosion itself throws evolutionary theory completely out the window. It just doesn't bear up to close scrutiny. I be live life forms adapt their environment over time, but there has never been any fossils found of one species changing into another species. The would be fossils of half one species, half another and there just aren't any. The change would take a long time and the fossil record would show the change in numerous examples and that's just not what we see at all. Not even close.

Can you tell me when blue stops being blue and becomes yellow? Is it when it becomes green? Well when does blue stop being blue and become green? Is that teal? Well same question, now with teal. I hope you can see where I'm going with this and understand how absurd asking for a transitional fossil that is half one species and half another sounds.

originally posted by: Barcs

originally posted by: Tangerine
Our bodies transform from beast to Church? LMAO. I'll take the non-human animals over the Church any day. Humans have to be the most self-deluded species on the planet.

Bingo. This is why I choose cats. I trust a cat or dog over pretty much any human I have ever met outside of family and close friends. A cat isn't going to torture you for not following its personal view of the world or take over your land because of "divine" right. The cat knows its place and stays loyal. The whole bible verse about the animals and plants all being put here strictly to serve man in any way he wants is one of the most dangerous and delusional scriptures ever written. Shame on whoever wrote that egotistical nonsense.

It's almost exclusively because of that verse that cows and chickens live lives of torture for man's over indulgence and corporate money interests are considered more important than the future of the planet. The law of abundance is bunk. It may have been legit when the human population was around 10,000, but there are definitely finite resources. Nothing lasts forever, and the worst part of all is that it's the religious fundamentalists that breed like jackrabbits and pollute the human race with their ignorance.

I agree with everything you've said. Christian fundamentalist pose a huge threat to democracy and humane treatment of human animals and non-human animals alike.