Seriously? I need to learn to avoid editorials, a 5th year of high school?

Slate Opinion Piece

I hated high school with almost everything in me. Personally, I'd love to see more students skip high school and go directly to a community college after 8th grade. Most of the classes you are taking at that age are directly equivalent to entry level college classes anyway at the remedial level, so why not get college credit for it? People could graduate at 18 with either a bachelor's or associate's degree depending upon their competency level and skip the drama of high school entirely. I think the only problem you'd really have is if a lot of people start migrating into universities at 16 or so, because then you'd have to keep them away from the frats, but other than that, it should be a non-issue.

College should be free. Can we do that? Maybe not for every major, but maybe the department of labor could make a list of approved majors and students could compete for slots in the less necessary fields. If people want to get a degree outside of the approved list, they could still do it by our traditional go in debt up to your eyeballs method, but for people going into nursing, engineering, math: areas where we desperately need people, and they are competent at what they are doing, why on earth should they go into debt? They'll only be paying taxes and earning millions of dollars for corporations for the remainder of their lives, it isn't like the elite won't get their money back.

Anyway, I am a triskadekophile, so 13th year sounds cool to me other than the thought of actually enduring another year of high school when you are 18-19 years old.

a reply to: Nechash

If you aren't learning enough in high school to avoid remedial college courses, then you are doing high school wrong.

a reply to: ketsuko

I tutored university students, many, many students end up in remedial classes. They are going to end up taking them anyway, why waste money on the redundancy of having them go to high school first?

a reply to: Nechash

If they aren't ready for college, they shouldn't be there. Why waste money on sending them there? Not to mention adding to their eventual student loan burden. High school is free.

Instead of lowering standards to accommodate those who did not learn what they need to know and dumbing down society, why not make those who did not learn what they should have take responsibility for their lack of studiousness?

And, too, not everyone should be in college despite what society tries to tell us today. Some are better suited for other things and you can still make a good living at them. Ask my cousin who drives trucks.

a reply to: ketsuko

Well, I went to a private college where an adjunct professor made all of $1700 for a semester teaching 30 students and the university probably had an additional $1000 in expenses for facilities and utilities running that class. This represents less than $100 per student per class. Considering the average high school student is now costing between $9k-$12k per year for a public school, this represents 90 to 120 college level classes they could take for the same cost. I know universities are going to want to make a profit, but if the government simply says, you will teach high school students at a price of $200 per class, or else you get zero government funding, I'm sure most colleges would figure out a way to make it work.

a reply to: Nechash

So basically, rather than address why a high school student basically just wasted four years in high school, you want them to just proceed on to college where they can compound the problems.

I would actually have liked to do another year of high school. That being said, though, it should definitely stay optional. Frankly, I don't think that most folks should be going past 16. That's about the age that you learn algebra and geometry, and that's about all you really need unless you're going to university to study something serious like engineering.

a reply to: ketsuko

No. I just think public high school is a huge waste of financial resources and is more similar to detention than it is to proper education.

I know I wasted 99% of my time in lower school; I was reading by the time I was three and all I ever wanted was to go home so I could read a book and learn something... I could scan my way through the material in the first week of classes and then never need to look at it again; the rest of the year was completely a waste. Meanwhile, they tried to teach me math and I never did get any of that... wasn't interested and couldn't remember ANY of it.

You can't cut someone's head open and pour in the knowledge; the minority of the population that has an inborn curiosity will learn very fast all by themselves, wherever their interests lie and the rest, I dunno... maybe we waste our time trying to get anything into their skulls, at least it seems that way to me sometimes.

With the advent of the internet, it's like everyone has a free Library of Congress Plus at their behest; I don't see why any education whatsoever has to be paid for, except perhaps apprenticeships where you pay the master to put up with being followed around and correcting the mistakes of the student.

I really think the grade school to college model has only a few decades to go before it's completely done away with; too bad society takes so long to adapt to obviously-needed changes.

I love the Zeitgeist Movement's model for this: free housing, food, education, health care and travel for everyone; if an education was free and you could change 'careers' at any time without money being an obstacle, I think a lot of people would get the equivalent of several college degrees and society would be that much better off for it.

Between free energy (that we know exists, thank you Tesla), 3-D printing and robotics, we're not that far away from the ZM's model being possible.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Nechash

If they aren't ready for college, they shouldn't be there. Why waste money on sending them there? Not to mention adding to their eventual student loan burden. High school is free.

High School isn't free, you pay for it with your taxes. Plus all school supplies are supposed to be provided by the parents or students if they have the means. So it's definitely not free.

Regardless a 5th year in High School is stupid and it's not going to prepare anyone any better for college. The reason most kids don't try in high school is because they don't choose to be there. With college it's a choice, most of the time anyway.

I barely went to my last two years of high school and even found the stuff in college repetitive and I only took one remedial class in Math since it was my weakest subject. With college you have to take an English Composition class - sometimes two or three. The first class is basically a repeat of information in high school. The second was, for me, just a class on how to write in the professional world (manuals, letters, memo's etc.). You also have to take history and humanities which depending on what you take, ends up being extremely repetitive. Seriously I don't know how many times I studied Colonial America and the Revolutionary War, it's important but we barely ever covered WWII and later which is much more relevant to today's world.

Most gen eds are repetitive and in my opinion a waste of time, I went to college to study music which is what I wanted to spend time doing, not relearning everything I was taught in High School.

You seem like a decent sort and may be earnest in your intentions.
I have to disagree with you... Vigorously disagree...extremely vigorous.
If I could yell on this site I'd be breaking speakers.

College should not be free.

Most students are doing such a lousy job in high school because they know they can learn it later in college and get credit for being subpar students. Not preparing for college should not be rewarded.

Most college grads can't get a living wage after college because they never looked at what their expected job paid as compared to their debts.
That's third grade math...I wonder if they need tutors for that.

They wasted high school so we pay for college and let them waste that too?
Letting kids screw off for another 4 years so they can then get a job where they have to be tutored to do the job is just another wasted step and more wasted money.

I put myself through school working several jobs and paid off my loans before I spent money on anything else.
It SUCKED. I did not enjoy it. I did, however, come out of it with a lot more sense and ability than my classmates.

Too many people out there are demanding a no accountability primary education where they walk out with a diploma most of them did not earn. Now they demand a free of charge,no accountability college degree. On top of that, they cry about running 200, 300 or 400 thousand dollars in debt to get a degree that will get them a job below poverty level.
It's idiotic.

Maybe this makes me an evil old man but I just can't respect a generation that looks at remedial classes in college as credit.
It's not credit. It's embarrassing and foolish to enable this mentality.

You want to go from 8th grade to college because kids are too stupid to do well in high school?

Is it me?
Am I just crazy or is this just the most twisted mentality I've heard in a long time?

Crap!
Where are the adults?
What the hell happened to all of the adults?

There shouldn't be money. But even so, yes it needs to be free. I hate corrupt systems where even trying to get ahead means you're evil, and selfish, because you can't focus on yourself if you haven't equalized and the righted the system first.

This system has to change otherwise participating in it makes you evil beyond and responsible for all the horrendous things occurring to the people in it.

Now my father was a teacher, my uncle a masters in physics and he was going on to get his doctorate in the third nuclear fusion, not fission, plant in the world late 50's, in Australia. He bailed last minute and became a science teacher up north, and my aunt was a special needs teacher.

My father used to take kids who were having difficulties, some were too bright and from troubled families and he put them on different levels of learning, which was experimental in those days, and turned lives around.

He and I also do not actually believe in all these mandatory courses in high school. Learning basic math, and then to read and write, is the only requirement. Once you can do that everything else should be up to interest, all your life. Because once you can do that, you can learn anything. So all the 5 years of enforced nonsense, should not be occurring. Most people don't use algebra in their lives Its just a mental game to them. But math is needed for many things so keeping up on it if you're an abstract thinker and capable of training for those careers is a good idea.

I think blending university and high school together is an excellent idea.

originally posted by: Nechash
a reply to: ketsuko



I tutored university students, many, many students end up in remedial classes. They are going to end up taking them anyway, why waste money on the redundancy of having them go to high school first?

You're citing the wrong problem. The remedial classes exist for those who did not or could not learn the material properly (learning, as you probably know, is different that memorizing for a test and then forgetting by the time you have to take entrance exams for college). It's the methods of teaching that have been adopted in the majority of our public schools that is the failure--if they'd quit teaching for tests and actually teach for life, things would be quite different.

Plus, keep in mind that not all people are college material, which is why there is such a low rate of graduates (about 60%). Forcing these 40% into college because of societal pressures (and misrepresentations of what that investment of time and money will yield the individual) is not going to help anything, especially when you are advocating throwing more tax dollars at the problem--getting a 60-cents-on-the-dollar ROI is not exactly a stellar business proposition. The government already throws enough good money after unintelligent "investments," so let's not compound the issue.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Basically, all I'm proposing is ending the bureaucratic system of higher education in favor of a semi-private/autonomous system of education. It wouldn't matter if the colleges actually held classes at their campus. They could rent out office space near their campus and employ adjunct professors to do the teaching. Also, I'm not suggesting we throw more money at the problem. We are already throwing $9k per student at higher education. My proposal would most certainly end up saving us money and the money we spent would buy us a better product.

While college presently has a 60% graduation rate for some colleges, some high schools have a worse graduation rate, so those students who are going to do poorly anyway will do so one single time instead of going to high school, doing poorly and then going onto college again and flunking out. If they flunked out of college at 16 after only finishing 30% of their course work, they could at that point join the labor market with 90% of an associate's degree, which is better for them in the long run than joining the labor market at 18 as a high school drop out, wouldn't you think?

Ultimately, it saves money, reduces redundancy and delivers a better product for the money spent and saves young people time at a time in their lives when their youth is the most precious commodity they possess. Plus, for the smart students, it would give them a huge leg up in life. They could have a master's degree by 18 if they did everything correctly and have a PhD by 22. Imagine how much further our society could get with an extra 8 years of production from our brightest minds.

a reply to: Nechash

Mental maturity has a lot to do with it, and I would argue that most individuals are not mature enough to know what they want to be before they're 18, let alone be working toward a masters degree or PHD. Hell, I'd bet that more than 1/3 of traditional college students, well into their early 20s, still don't truly know what they want to be--not to mention the poor adults who have been working 20 years in a field that they really despise, simply because they got a degree in it when they were 22 and didn't really know what they wanted to be.

We need to start promoting trade schools and apprenticeships again, along with a realistic expectation of what life at the age of 22 should be (cheap apartments, no iPhones, no cable, no Xboxes, no nights partying money away, bikes and public transportation in lieu of personal vehicles, etc.)--I think that would be a better solution than pushing (often-times unnecessary) college careers on children.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

I must be aberrant. I knew I wanted into the sciences since I watched Jurassic Park as a child. ;p

originally posted by: badgerprints
You seem like a decent sort and may be earnest in your intentions.
I have to disagree with you... Vigorously disagree...extremely vigorous.
If I could yell on this site I'd be breaking speakers.

College should not be free.

Most students are doing such a lousy job in high school because they know they can learn it later in college and get credit for being subpar students. Not preparing for college should not be rewarded.

Most college grads can't get a living wage after college because they never looked at what their expected job paid as compared to their debts.
That's third grade math...I wonder if they need tutors for that.

They wasted high school so we pay for college and let them waste that too?
Letting kids screw off for another 4 years so they can then get a job where they have to be tutored to do the job is just another wasted step and more wasted money.

I put myself through school working several jobs and paid off my loans before I spent money on anything else.
It SUCKED. I did not enjoy it. I did, however, come out of it with a lot more sense and ability than my classmates.

Too many people out there are demanding a no accountability primary education where they walk out with a diploma most of them did not earn. Now they demand a free of charge,no accountability college degree. On top of that, they cry about running 200, 300 or 400 thousand dollars in debt to get a degree that will get them a job below poverty level.
It's idiotic.

Maybe this makes me an evil old man but I just can't respect a generation that looks at remedial classes in college as credit.
It's not credit. It's embarrassing and foolish to enable this mentality.

You want to go from 8th grade to college because kids are too stupid to do well in high school?

Is it me?
Am I just crazy or is this just the most twisted mentality I've heard in a long time?

Crap!
Where are the adults?
What the hell happened to all of the adults?

I want to scream at you too, but I'm not even going to bother.

You know what, I'll use the one excuse you dont want to hear: times change. You say it yourself, twisted mentality.


PEOPLE DONT EDUCATE THEMSELVES, SOCIETY DOES, PARENTS DO, HECK, TV AND THE INTERNET DO (oops I screamed)

it was like that in your days too I know I know, but you cant argue it was the same as it is today


Do I deny entitlement etc being a problem? OF COURSE NOT! But old people, sorry for including you, fail to grasp the concept that you're not born into this world with proper values, YOU ARE GIVEN THEM DURING YOUR CHILDHOOD.

This is where society failed and fails. And you blame it on stupid young kids WHO NEVER LEARNT ANY BETTER IN THE FIRST PLACE



This gets me going like mad because I count myself in with the losers who will never be what "the elders" expect, but hey, my parents were a bunch of fcking retards and so is the society I grew up in. And now I get the blame for being a moron who is in debt and stuck on all aspects of life


Thanks, its all our own fault!


Edit to add I probably shouldnt post emotional and irrational responses like that as you're only getting 5% of the picture and I can understand this rant wont add much to your understanding of current generation frustrations, but I know I'm not alone and YOU are the one ignoring a LOT of sh.t that we have to deal with, but thats ok.

Oh hey, by the way? Kids arent too stupid to learn anything at a young age, SOCIETY MAKES THEM THAT WAY

When I was younger people laughed at me for being a nerd, I was abused at home and so felt a need to fit in, there, Ill stop studying and pretend I like football too.

PEER PRESSURE is not a nice thing when you are an INSECURE KID which most children today are

You know zero about child psychology, it shows, but let me try this for a second:

In a society where children are constantly exposed to what We even find hard even AS ADULTS to deal with, ie continual social interactions, immense expectations from your social circles, constant bombardment with garbage intended to make you feel bad. Porn, tv shows, gossip,... Children today are exposed to it all and its only adding to their insecurities

Do we live in a society that teaches kids its supercool to be smart? OH LOL, twilight zone if you think we do


My entire high school carreer has been a failure, i was the class clown, the idiot. Now I am 26 and how I WISH I could go back to high school with the CONSCIOUSNESS I have developed now. But I hadnt back then, and now that I'm 26 and FINALLY AN ADULT (had to get there on my own, I know 50y olds who are not adult yet), I regret it took me so long


Most kids in school have no idea what they are there for, and if YOU did, then you should feel lucky rather than insulting the ones who didnt.m


I want to emphasise that I know we have it "good" here, what I'm complaining about is nothing compared to no education or even food and water, but lets be honest here, extreme comparisons dont suddenly make it ok to have a lesser #ed up system ourselves, only to then blame it on the ones LEAST responsible for it.

Are you going to argue you are not a child of your generation? Your past did not contribute to your present? If you are going to argue you had a troubled youth too etc, all the more power to you, but Not everyone has the willpower, that is something you are taught, trust me

my entire youth I was told I "couldn't", now you try and tell me its all my fault for being a failure at life again please


I could go on and on about this all day but its rather unorganised since you kinda struck a nerve, so Ill stop here.

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: Nechash

Mental maturity has a lot to do with it, and I would argue that most individuals are not mature enough to know what they want to be before they're 18, let alone be working toward a masters degree or PHD. Hell, I'd bet that more than 1/3 of traditional college students, well into their early 20s, still don't truly know what they want to be--not to mention the poor adults who have been working 20 years in a field that they really despise, simply because they got a degree in it when they were 22 and didn't really know what they wanted to be.

We need to start promoting trade schools and apprenticeships again, along with a realistic expectation of what life at the age of 22 should be (cheap apartments, no iPhones, no cable, no Xboxes, no nights partying money away, bikes and public transportation in lieu of personal vehicles, etc.)--I think that would be a better solution than pushing (often-times unnecessary) college careers on children.

This kinda sums up my rant in a nutshell.

By the way, who is responsible for allowing children to mature mentally? That's right, parents, friends and society. And they fail MISERABLY!

Those cases you mention, 20 years in a dead end job to their own misery, I'd argue those people are far from mentally mature... They're stuck in a program in their mind.

I often think true "enlightenment" means mentally being matured, learning about the world and growing an interest in it. How many factory workers do you know that like to spend time at museums?

Lol, they go get hammered every weekend yeah, to keep the program they're supposed to execute again on mondays running in the background...

Its sad imo, and it's not their fault either.

originally posted by: NoNameNeeded
Its sad imo, and it's not their fault either.

But it is their fault.
They choose to remain the same instead of changing.
EVERYBODY decides what to do with their lives.

Every, single, day..

Society doesn't teach kids it's supercool to be smart?
Society my ass.
My society wasn't supportive.
My parents did not encourage me to go to college.
My parents did not teach me about the world.
My parents simply beat me into submission. Very literally. Nearly every day.
The only thing I knew I wanted to do as a kid was to escape constant physical harm.
It took decades to unlearn the misery my parents instilled into my mind.
They still think I'm a useless fool because I never settled for a piss poor 40 hour a week, hand to mouth subsistence job.
They did not teach me to be an adult or to be responsible.
They taught me misery and fear.
I left home a basket case and swore I'd never let people treat me like that again.
We're all damaged in some way. We can use it as an excuse or get over it.
Blaming others for our own weaknesses is a waste of time.
Expecting others to save us is damn fool stupidity.
How can they save you when they can't get off their dead asses and save themselves?
We are all responsible for our own growth or failure to do so.

The worst thing we ever did was to let this nurture or nature BS give people the excuse to be losers.
"That's ok, it's not your fault you can't get a better life. We understand."

It's all CRAP!

Society has NEVER made anybody into a damn thing.

People become who they are IN SPITE of society.

Quit feeling sorry for yourselves and fight for something besides sympathy and a free ride.

Why am I insulting KIDS?
To make them angry.
Anger makes you wake up.
Anger gets you off your ass.
Anger gets you thinking instead of feeling.
Look at the loser in the mirror and change it.
Oh, yes. You want someone else to carry your water? Then you are a loser.

I pissed you off and made you want to scream?
Thank God for that.
Maybe a few other kids will get angry too.

Print it out.
Pass it around.
Piss off a bunch of em.
Wake these sad, needy little zombies up.