Attempted "No-Knock" Raid at My House

Having read reports of little girls being shot, old men being shot in bed, dogs being shot, the Waco fiasco, vegetable gardens being trashed, I'm just glad no one was shot that night, and thank heaven the guy can type properly!

originally posted by: ladyinwaiting
I don't like "strangeness in my immediate vicinity" either, neno. I would have been terrified to see all those people on my property with guns. Good Lord, are they out of their minds? George must have done something really sinister to create such a response from swat?

Glad you are all okay. That could have had a terrible ending. I think one shot from you, and they might all have opened fire.

Would it help to file a complaint?

Well, I don't really know what he did this time - maybe something as light as breaking parole. I just don't know. He cut a guy's throat about a year or so ago. The guy lived (I reckon he didn't do it "right", huh?) and there have been drug-related beatings he's administered here and there, but this time, I don't know. What I do know, from what the deputy said, is that he has a reputation amongst local law enforcement, and they expected him to act out. They said that the report they got giving his location also said he was armed with two guns (I didn't see any at all when he was "hunting soldiers" - all I saw was his flashlight), and that he was "acting the kind of weird they had come to expect", meaning, I guess, of a violent nature.

You have to admit, "hunting soldiers" is a pretty violent pastime, so I can sort of see their point on that.

I won't file a complaint, because from what I can tell, it was an honest mistake, and they were professional enough NOT to shoot me, even though I was armed myself when they first glimpsed me.

Would that ALL cops had to patrol these trails for 6 months or so as training. Maybe they wouldn't be as prone shoot first and ask questions about how to cover it up later.

a reply to: nenothtu

That could easily have gone pear-shaped if itchy trigger fingers was there. I got so into your story (as I always do with you) that I started reading in a Louisiana accent (I visited New Orleans last St Patricks) and it all just came together. Don't know if you're from down that way, but the whole place, and Mississippi was just amazing - unbelievably friendly folk.

What an awesome reality-check, my heart would've been pumpin!!

I can't believe your missus hasn't weighed-in yet, come on OpB, what say you?

originally posted by: woodwardjnr
It's not so bad living in the UK, where stuff like this would never happen. I'm sure the cops have gone into the wrong house occasionally with the big red key, but I like the fact they're not armed to the teeth. Policing by consent. You should try it America. your police are out of control

Big Red Key? I'm unfamiliar with the concept.

Generally speaking, policing is "by consent" right around this area. The majority are county deputies, and their boss, the sheriff, is elected and therefore subject to removal by the electorate. We have no "police" right around here - they are reserved for towns and cities, so it's just the Sheriff's Department and the State Police (there were two State Police cars in the entourage, the rest were county Sheriff's Deputies).

In cities, the situation is a little different - the Chief answers to the city government, rather than the people, and as we know, government sometimes has... different... ideas of how things ought to go. So in cities the police are generally speaking answerable to no one but their supervisors, and ultimately the council and/or mayor. Conversely, in cities the government is more likely to "cover up" piss poor policing and protect their "troops", because it is, after all, at THEIR behest.

Way back when, about 30 years ago or so, I used to help train the police and deputies around here, and they were trained to a pretty high standard. Regardless of what you are told, it's not that way everywhere. They CLAIM high standards on paper, but it doesn't come through at the academy often enough. As an example, I was an armed guard in North Carolina for a number of years. As part of that job, I had to go re-qualify and be retrained every year with my sidearm. By state law, I had to shoot at least 80% on a modified FBI shooting course. The local police only had to shoot 70%. As armed security, I was held to a HIGHER standard than SWORN officers. That carries through into many other areas of policing than just shooting, which if you do your job right, doesn't normally come into play.

Most of the cops there were pretty good guys, too, but there were some real ringers in the bunch. I once had to detain a fellow who was trying to break into a bank after hours, and being pretty belligerent about it. Since I could only detain him, but not arrest him, sworn officers had to be called to the scene to effect the arrest. One of them pulled me to the side and said "you've got a steel ASP on your belt. You should have just worn him out, and we'd have sworn that he fell down - a lot". that's not the kind of kid I want having my back - prone to use unreasonable force unnecessarily. Had it been reasonable, then I WOULD have worn him out - but it wasn't necessary, so I didn't. I did just fine without taking out steel.

That's also the same area where I SAW warrants being filled out after the fact - when they had found out what the WANTED to find, and put it on the warrant. That's just wrong. On the other hand, some of them, MOST of them, were as good as gold... but it only takes ONE bad apple to rot out the whole barrel.

I believe they should root out the bad ones, and make examples of them. Then it wouldn't matter if the rest are bristling with guns - they won't use them unnecessarily.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: nenothtu

That could easily have gone pear-shaped if itchy trigger fingers was there. I got so into your story (as I always do with you) that I started reading in a Louisiana accent (I visited New Orleans last St Patricks) and it all just came together. Don't know if you're from down that way, but the whole place, and Mississippi was just amazing - unbelievably friendly folk.

What an awesome reality-check, my heart would've been pumpin!!

It's better than tonic for clearing the cobwebs!

I'm not from Louisiana - I'm up in the Appalachians, not too far from Hatfield and McCoy country - both of whom, oddly enough, I'm related to... the McCoy's directly (on my dad's side), and the Hatfields through the Vances, on my mom's side. People here are unbelievably friendly, too - it's just not safe to cross them, kind of like the Cajuns. They'll do anything in the world they can for you, until you cross them... then they'll do anything in the world they can TO you.

I came here from Ohio in my very early teens, because this is where my family is from, so I reckon I'm a "naturalized hillbilly". One thing that struck me as odd, that I'll never forget, was riding down the road my first week here, and having everyone, literally EVERYONE - complete strangers, smile and wave at me like they'd known me all my life. that's just something I never saw in Cleveland, didn't expect, and really didn't know how to take at the time.

The accent is pretty similar - not as much "Cajun", harder "r's", not as sibilant. Anson Mount, the guy who plays Cullen Bohannon on "Hell on Wheels" has pretty much the same accent, but I'm given to understand he's really from Tennessee, rather than Mississippi.

I can't believe your missus hasn't weighed-in yet, come on OpB, what say you?

She's asleep. I stayed up too late getting this thread out, and responding in it. I'm sure she'll chime in shortly!

a reply to: nenothtu

Hells Bells Neno! It sounds like a episode right out of "Justified".

I tend to think of rural LEO's as being better mannered than their city brethren. Not all but most are. If you were still here in Cleveland, chances are that you would not have even heard the shout of "Shooter!" until after the fact and were lying in a pool of your own blood.

Luckily, my little town outside of Cleveland still have the well mannered cops. I get along with them pretty good.

ETA: Being raised country, I always nod and smile at people whenever I go places. I think it creeps out the city folk, so I do it a lot especially downtown.

a reply to: nenothtu

I would be genuinely interested to know on how many occasions someone returns from the Police Dept (of any state in the US) to apologize and explain, and whether that is a standard procedure or discretionary.

I'm fascinated with American culture and modern history - it's both mad and amazing at the same time. It blows me away that out in the middle of no-where, where you live, comes a SWAT team - looking for one single bloke!!

You told the story so well, and now knowing where you are from makes all the more sense - I would like to spend a couple of months travelling through that entire area of the south-east US...starting at New Orleans, it would be the experience of a life-time.

I have some very cool friends over in your neck of the woods that take honour, pride and integrity very seriously, and yes, I would not like to cross them but that's not likely to happen because we're usually drunk hungover asleep or eating.

originally posted by: Answer
Yeeeeahhhhh... sorry but the dialogue and level of detail alone give it away as a fabricated story.

Nice try but I've read way too many embellished internet stories and they all share some similarities: unnecessary level of detail, lots of bravado, unrealistic dialogue, unrealistic series of events, etc.

Detail makes it fake?

You have to look for consistency first, sorry. The story is consistent, therefore leading the detail to be justified. Someone who gives tons of details but serves multiple angles, and can't quite get a common theme out of their story, I know what you're talking about.

I'd say 7/10 for what really happened.

The OP might have been shaking his leg a little more than they'd like to admit, but Im sure we'd all remember it differently.

No offense OP.

originally posted by: nenothtu
a reply to: Answer

You seem to be of the opinion that I care if you believe it or not.

I don't.

I'm just explaining the situation as it unfolded - you can take from it what you want, or not.

Even though it doesn't matter (and it shouldn't) to you.... I believe your narrative in the OP.

Crap like this happens all the time in America.... even though it shouldn't.

a reply to: nenothtu

Damn neno, this one feels mighty close to home knowing that there isn't much distance between us.
Glad all went alright, given the circumstances, and that no one was shot and/or killed. I'd imagine that had things went awry I'd be reading about it in the local papers soon enough. Of course, then they'd make you out to be the "bad guy"....some "paranoid fanatic" type or whatever it took to discredit you and keep the blame off them.

Anyways, glad you and all yours are safe.
After initially reading your account this morning I was browsing around and ran into something that I think can contribute to this conversation....I'll just copy and paste it here...

Jeff Cooper's color code - Combat Mindset and the Cooper Color Code:
The most important means of surviving a lethal confrontation, according to Cooper, is neither the weapon nor the martial skills. The primary tool is the combat mindset, set forth in his book, Principles of Personal Defense. The color code, as originally introduced by Jeff Cooper, had nothing to do with tactical situations or alertness levels, but rather with one's state of mind. As taught by Cooper, it relates to the degree of peril you are willing to do something about and which allows you to move from one level of mindset to another to enable you to properly handle a given situation. Cooper did not claim to have invented anything in particular with the color code, but he was apparently the first to use it as an indication of mental state.

White: Unaware and unprepared. If attacked in Condition White, the only thing that may save you is the inadequacy or ineptitude of your attacker. When confronted by something nasty, your reaction will probably be "Oh my God! This can't be happening to me."

Yellow: Relaxed alert. No specific threat situation. Your mindset is that "today could be the day I may have to defend myself". You are simply aware that the world is a potentially unfriendly place and that you are prepared to defend yourself, if necessary. You use your eyes and ears, and realize that "I may have to shoot today". You don't have to be armed in this state, but if you are armed you should be in Condition Yellow. You should always be in Yellow whenever you are in unfamiliar surroundings or among people you don't know. You can remain in Yellow for long periods, as long as you are able to "Watch your six." (In aviation 12 o'clock refers to the direction in front of the aircraft's nose. Six o'clock is the blind spot behind the pilot.) In Yellow, you are "taking in" surrounding information in a relaxed but alert manner, like a continuous 360 degree radar sweep. As Cooper put it, "I might have to shoot."

Orange: Specific alert. Something is not quite right and has your attention. Your radar has picked up a specific alert. You shift your primary focus to determine if there is a threat (but you do not drop your six). Your mindset shifts to "I may have to shoot that person today", focusing on the specific target which has caused the escalation in alert status. In Condition Orange, you set a mental trigger: "If that person does "X", I will need to stop them". Your pistol usually remains holstered in this state. Staying in Orange can be a bit of a mental strain, but you can stay in it for as long as you need to. If the threat proves to be nothing, you shift back to Condition Yellow.

Red: Condition Red is fight. Your mental trigger (established back in Condition Orange) has been tripped. "If 'X' happens I will shoot that person" - 'X' has happened, the fight is on. The USMC uses condition Black, although it was not originally part of Cooper's Color Code. Condition Black: Catastrophic breakdown of mental and physical performance. Usually over 175 heartbeats per minute, increased heart rate becomes counter productive. May have stopped thinking correctly. This can happen when going from Condition White or Yellow immediately to Condition Red.In short, the Color Code helps you "think" in a fight. As the level of danger increases, your willingness to take certain actions increases. If you ever do go to Condition Red, the decision to use lethal force has already been made (your "mental trigger" has been tripped).

a reply to: Sublimecraft

It blows me away that out in the middle of no-where, where you live, comes a SWAT team - looking for one single bloke!!

Yes, too bad it doesn't affect more Americans the same way.

It is the militarization of the police. Many rural areas have SWAT teams available, usually by way of a county based team.

It isn't Andy and Barney running Mayberry any more.

a reply to: nenothtu

maybe there's a good moral to this story about living your life in such are paranoid state that you would hear odd noises outside and go straight for a gun to shoot someone, rather than just using common sense and going for a torch to see whats going on.

Seems like your gun put yourself and your family in a potentially fatal situation.......... Just saying.

originally posted by: TDawgRex
a reply to: nenothtu

Hells Bells Neno! It sounds like a episode right out of "Justified".

Pretty close, I guess, except no Federal Marshals involved. I used to contract out to the Marshals Service upon occasion (guarding Federal prisoners in the hospital, and transport and stuff) - does that count?

I tend to think of rural LEO's as being better mannered than their city brethren. Not all but most are. If you were still here in Cleveland, chances are that you would not have even heard the shout of "Shooter!" until after the fact and were lying in a pool of your own blood.

See U2U - funny you should mention that...

ETA: Being raised country, I always nod and smile at people whenever I go places. I think it creeps out the city folk, so I do it a lot especially downtown.

last time I was up there, I went walking down Euclid Ave, towards the east (Yeah, I know - but I've never been accused of being overly bright) wearing a three-piece suit (did you know those must smell like "money" or something? Who knew?) and some folks were AWFUL friendly - trying to sell me stuff and whatnot. Why, one fine young man even tried to get me to go down an alley for a sample!

You're right - it DOES seem to creep them out when you smile! That young man suddenly lost interest in his sales career!

a reply to: butcherguy

The SWAT teams in neno's area (also my general area) are a direct result of the "war on drugs"....this area has been devastated by narcotics (pharmaceuticals) providing justification for these SWAT teams.

......"Mayberry"....HA. Yeap, might have been in the past. Of course, at a mere 30 years old, it's VERY difficult for me to recall those days.

a reply to: nenothtu

Uhh... did you clean up my language for a reason... cause if I recall I didn't say "We live here" (all polite and nice... lol) I politely said "This is our goddamn house!" At the top of my lungs...

As for me going back in the house... oh hell no... That was as fast as I could get my behind to your side in the first place (bad pain day that day) and if they were gonna be pointing guns at your head I was planning on bitching them to kingdom come, since it was my only available and useful weapon!

As for the rest, I think the cops did a good job of handling the situation honestly. They thought you were a guy who recently attempted to murder someone, and who was now armed and hallucinating. They did real good ... most city cops would have shot you dead coming out of the door armed and asked questions later.

And I'm proud of you too...I think everyone had their head on their shoulders that night, you included.

But never ever ever think for a minute I wont run by your side and yell at multiple armed persons. I will... its my job.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Oh God....here we go.

Seems like your gun put yourself and your family in a potentially fatal situation

Seems to me that cops sneaking around a property in the middle of the night, unannounced, put him and his family in a potentially fatal situation.
Perhaps you missed the story about the cops capping that 7 year old girl? I'm sure she was cocked and locked to....putting her and her family in a "potentially fatal situation" that turned out to be fatal for her.
....so who was to blame again?

living your life in such are paranoid state that you would hear odd noises outside and go straight for a gun to shoot someone, rather than just using common sense and going for a torch to see whats going on.

You really are clueless about how country folk live aren't you? It has absolutely NOTHING to do with "paranoia"....
Let's just imagine that there were no cops.....the intruder happens to be a hungry bear (yeah, we have those around here) and you go out with said torch...no protection......< yeah, that's about all I have to say about that......
Maybe it is you who needs to realize that the world you live in can be a dangerous place at times.....this isn't pleasantville bud.

a reply to: OpinionatedB




That's all I got to say about that.

And....

Uhh... did you clean up my language for a reason... cause if I recall I didn't say "We live here" (all polite and nice... lol) I politely said "This is our goddamn house!" At the top of my lungs

Priceless

.....to the both of you.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: nenothtu

Uhh... did you clean up my language for a reason... cause if I recall I didn't say "We live here" (all polite and nice... lol) I politely said "This is our goddamn house!" At the top of my lungs...

As for me going back in the house... oh hell no... That was as fast as I could get my behind to your side in the first place (bad pain day that day) and if they were gonna be pointing guns at your head I was planning on bitching them to kingdom come, since it was my only available and useful weapon!

As for the rest, I think the cops did a good job of handling the situation honestly. They thought you were a guy who recently attempted to murder someone, and who was now armed and hallucinating. They did real good ... most city cops would have shot you dead coming out of the door armed and asked questions later.

And I'm proud of you too...I think everyone had their head on their shoulders that night, you included.

But never ever ever think for a minute I wont run by your side and yell at multiple armed persons. I will... its my job.

You certainly have a 'keeper' in this fine woman, nenothtu!

a reply to: butcherguy

Here, here....I'll second that.
....and a second line because I have to

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: nenothtu

maybe there's a good moral to this story about living your life in such are paranoid state that you would hear odd noises outside and go straight for a gun to shoot someone, rather than just using common sense and going for a torch to see whats going on.

Seems like your gun put yourself and your family in a potentially fatal situation.......... Just saying.

What you call a paranoid state, most would call a state of alertness.

Now, the OP heard unfamiliar noises, picked up a weapon for defense and found a big bunch of armed guys on his property.

He was not paranoid, he made a correct judgement.

Why do you think he was paranoid? How was he paranoid?

He was alert to a threat and the threat was there, staring him in the face.

That is being careful.

Only a fool hears strange noises and takes out a flashlight to pinpoint his own position.

P