Here's What Happened When One City Gave Homeless People Shelter Instead of Throwing Them in Jail

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've asked one person on this site who said she'd been homeless what should be done about the existing homeless who are mentally ill/addicted and she didn't respond. Now I'll ask the same question to anyone on this list who has been homeless. Yes, I know that preventing people from becoming homeless is the ideal solution but I'm asking about those who are already homeless. The problem seems to be that the mentally ill and serious addicts can't function well enough to avoid being evicted. Solutions?

There are many I can imagine. Home health care, social worker visits, etc. However all possible solutions to these specific (mental health and/or addiction) required skilled care by a paid case worker with the time and resources to do the job and in this 'era of austerity', I have trouble imagining the poliitical will being available to anything other then endless war and killing.

Helping the mentally ill and addicted outside of jails and prisions, even with personalized human care, would still be less expensive and of benefit to the community in the long term.

Just because you cannot imagine solutions doesn't mean that solutions don't exist And requiring a solution to be perfect isn't necessary. Both these persistant 'thought forms' are unproductive to individuals and groups.

In the US there is a terrible lack of imagination and experimentation in the social welfare domain because of narrow and close minded thinking. We, in the US, encouage creativity in the areas of killing and destroying life but not promoting health and well-being of people and the bioshpere. If we look to nature as a guide (and we don't) only half of her energy is put into dissolution and decay the other is put into growth and abundance.

We need to start emulating the contructive forces of nature instead of the distructive ones and that begins with the way we think and act.

I agree with much that you say (except the part about my not being able to imagine solutions -- I simply asked others for their suggestions). The problem is not limited to the mentally ill/addicts themselves but also to the people their behavior impacts. Placing them in apartments among the general population may be great for them but is very unpleasant for their neighbors. Adult family homes or facilities where specialized care is on-site might be a better solution. Of course, the problem then becomes getting them to voluntarily live there. Where do we draw the line between their rights and the rights of others in the community? Do law enforcement agencies and other agencies have the right to force them to live somewhere? Should they have the right to force them?

originally posted by: FyreByrd

An interesting historical note on "relocation costs would be the biggest expense". The nazis in world war II used the world 'relocation' as code for 'sending to the gas chambers'.

Don't be absurd. Context is everything.

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: EasyPleaseMe

Yes and no. They are arrested for being homeless, but the excuse is that they are loitering on private property and harassing people. Or drunk in public. But in Santa Monica there are lots of homeless people who just camp out on the sidewalks. They aren't messed with. Cops leave them alone. Usually they are actually friendly. Often a bit crazy but friendly at least.

There is/was a homeless man in my neighborhood. Would always hang around this liquor store. Didn't drink but his encampment was a store or two over in the alley. The guy who runs the liquor store is a gruff old persian man. Usually untalkative and unsmiling with the customers. Well that old man hired this homeless guy. Paid him a normal salary, and didn't short him or pay him some sub wage. Paid him what he paid all of his other employees. Turns out the old man was actually a pretty nice guy. So don't judge a book by its cover.

Anyways, this homeless man worked hard, and soon he was getting nearly 40 hours a week of work. Always did a good job. I would go into the liquor store and see him over the months. His health improved, his skin, his outlook on life.

So after almost a year of watching this I go into the liquor store one day and I see him buying beer. The owner wanted to just give it to him, he refused and wanted to pay. I went up to him and said "hey man! I thought you didn't drink" He responded " I'm celebrating tonight!"

I asked him why? "It's my birthday!" he responded. and then after some silence and a pause I saw a tear well up in his eye and he says to me almost in a half broken soft voice, just choked up a bit and goes " I just realized it's the first time I've celebrated my birthday indoors in 5 years" Turned out he had rented his first room about a month ago and was now no longer homeless but paying his way renting a room at a decent looking house down the street by someone in the community who took a chance on renting a room out to a homeless man trying to right himself again.

Just went into that same liquor store last night. He's still working there. Still keeping a roof over his head and even got himself some new kicks. Nowaays he spends his time in between shifts talking with his boss (the old persian man that everybody thinks is mean, cause they never took the time to get to know him) about coin collecting, standing side by side behind the counter looking at coin collection books and catalogs. An old former homeless black man standing 6'3" beside a old persian man standing 5'3" laughing and pointing at coins they hope to find and add to their personal collections. Smiles from ear to ear on both.

So there are ways to help the homeless. Arresting them is usually not the answer and only makes the situation worse. (Granted some do need to be arrested) I applaud and support the decision this city has made and am thrilled at how effective it has been in both helping their local budget, reducing homelessness and ultimately decreasing the net pain and suffering going around. And its not just a "christian" thing. the persian guy in my story is jewish, and the black guy was an athiest.

That's a nice story but it doesn't reflect the reality of many homeless with severe addictions and mental illness. Surely, those who simply need a hand up can benefit from such largesse, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the mentally ill/addicted homeless who have been run through "the system" many times.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've asked one person on this site who said she'd been homeless what should be done about the existing homeless who are mentally ill/addicted and she didn't respond. Now I'll ask the same question to anyone on this list who has been homeless. Yes, I know that preventing people from becoming homeless is the ideal solution but I'm asking about those who are already homeless. The problem seems to be that the mentally ill and serious addicts can't function well enough to avoid being evicted. Solutions?

There are many I can imagine. Home health care, social worker visits, etc. However all possible solutions to these specific (mental health and/or addiction) required skilled care by a paid case worker with the time and resources to do the job and in this 'era of austerity', I have trouble imagining the poliitical will being available to anything other then endless war and killing.

.

Home healthcare for the homeless??? Social worker visits for the homeless??? How are either of those things going to help the homeless mentally ill/addicts? These people are already aware of the available services (most have been run through "the system" multiple times). It doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't still be homeless.

When homeless people aren't being harried by the police they are freer to make what little money they need by collecting the cans and bottles you all throw away.

originally posted by: intrptr
When homeless people aren't being harried by the police they are freer to make what little money they need by collecting the cans and bottles you all throw away.

Of course, but that doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

a reply to: Tangerine

Of course, but that doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

In my 'outdoor' phase I met lots of people that wanted to be there more than any other place. The stigma of "being less than" when you're "homeless" is a media generated one.

a reply to: FyreByrd

Thanks for your reply! In addition - I really liked your reply above to Tangerine. You hit all the high-points. Congrats!

"An interesting historical note on "relocation costs would be the biggest expense". The nazis in world war II used the world 'relocation' as code for 'sending to the gas chambers'."

The Holocaust was more than "homeless/forced relocation". It was outright Planned Extermination, with killer-gas out of those shower spigots for new arrivals to get clean.

And it always amazes me how, when a minority comes to power, they always turn fascist and plot to punish/destroy everyone else (majority and other minorities). Instead of what people EXPECT them to do - be hyper-vigilant for abuse or neglect of absolutely everyone.

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1413125747&sr=1-1&keywords=Pink+Swastika

Since when has being homeless been a crime??? Unfortunate and sad, yes! But a crime? No!!! Sometimes people just need a little help and time to get themselves back together!

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've asked one person on this site who said she'd been homeless what should be done about the existing homeless who are mentally ill/addicted and she didn't respond. Now I'll ask the same question to anyone on this list who has been homeless. Yes, I know that preventing people from becoming homeless is the ideal solution but I'm asking about those who are already homeless. The problem seems to be that the mentally ill and serious addicts can't function well enough to avoid being evicted. Solutions?

There are many I can imagine. Home health care, social worker visits, etc. However all possible solutions to these specific (mental health and/or addiction) required skilled care by a paid case worker with the time and resources to do the job and in this 'era of austerity', I have trouble imagining the poliitical will being available to anything other then endless war and killing.

.

Home healthcare for the homeless??? Social worker visits for the homeless??? How are either of those things going to help the homeless mentally ill/addicts? These people are already aware of the available services (most have been run through "the system" multiple times). It doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't still be homeless.

No, vists for those in public housing. But now that you mention it, why not have mobile care units? Now you're using constructive imagination - kudos.

The homeless do congregate in certain areas, it would not be difficult or terribly expensive to have mobile health care and social service units.

Great idea Tangerine.

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: EasyPleaseMe

Yes and no. They are arrested for being homeless, but the excuse is that they are loitering on private property and harassing people. Or drunk in public. But in Santa Monica there are lots of homeless people who just camp out on the sidewalks. They aren't messed with. Cops leave them alone. Usually they are actually friendly. Often a bit crazy but friendly at least.

There is/was a homeless man in my neighborhood. Would always hang around this liquor store. Didn't drink but his encampment was a store or two over in the alley. The guy who runs the liquor store is a gruff old persian man. Usually untalkative and unsmiling with the customers. Well that old man hired this homeless guy. Paid him a normal salary, and didn't short him or pay him some sub wage. Paid him what he paid all of his other employees. Turns out the old man was actually a pretty nice guy. So don't judge a book by its cover.

Anyways, this homeless man worked hard, and soon he was getting nearly 40 hours a week of work. Always did a good job. I would go into the liquor store and see him over the months. His health improved, his skin, his outlook on life.

So after almost a year of watching this I go into the liquor store one day and I see him buying beer. The owner wanted to just give it to him, he refused and wanted to pay. I went up to him and said "hey man! I thought you didn't drink" He responded " I'm celebrating tonight!"

I asked him why? "It's my birthday!" he responded. and then after some silence and a pause I saw a tear well up in his eye and he says to me almost in a half broken soft voice, just choked up a bit and goes " I just realized it's the first time I've celebrated my birthday indoors in 5 years" Turned out he had rented his first room about a month ago and was now no longer homeless but paying his way renting a room at a decent looking house down the street by someone in the community who took a chance on renting a room out to a homeless man trying to right himself again.

Just went into that same liquor store last night. He's still working there. Still keeping a roof over his head and even got himself some new kicks. Nowaays he spends his time in between shifts talking with his boss (the old persian man that everybody thinks is mean, cause they never took the time to get to know him) about coin collecting, standing side by side behind the counter looking at coin collection books and catalogs. An old former homeless black man standing 6'3" beside a old persian man standing 5'3" laughing and pointing at coins they hope to find and add to their personal collections. Smiles from ear to ear on both.

So there are ways to help the homeless. Arresting them is usually not the answer and only makes the situation worse. (Granted some do need to be arrested) I applaud and support the decision this city has made and am thrilled at how effective it has been in both helping their local budget, reducing homelessness and ultimately decreasing the net pain and suffering going around. And its not just a "christian" thing. the persian guy in my story is jewish, and the black guy was an athiest.

That's a nice story but it doesn't reflect the reality of many homeless with severe addictions and mental illness. Surely, those who simply need a hand up can benefit from such largesse, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the mentally ill/addicted homeless who have been run through "the system" many times.

Yes - the world is full of nice stories.

As to addiction - there are no degrees of addiction just as there are no degrees of pregnant. The conditions surrounding the addict affect how any addict is perceived by others and self and may appear FROM THE OUTSIDE as better or worse, but you is or you ain't. And the important thing is that we don't get to pronounce whether or not someone is an addict, only they do.

Even hardcore addicts of long standing deserve our help, even the untreatable mentally ill deserve our help and even those whose choose homelessness deserve our help; you can never tell whether or not a given intervention will change a life or not. And all people deserve our respect and compassion.

originally posted by: ArchPlayer
I am no fan of Salt Lake City. Their arrogance towards their religion and their blatant racism

So everyone in Salt Lake is a zealot, and racist pig dog. Gotcha!

a reply to: FyreByrd

Helping others is always a "win" situation. I'm very happy to see that the homeless are being helped, and the people that helped are being rewarded. I hope other cities will take notice!

Gald to see this thread going to the "top" page so more people will see it. S&F for you.

That's all fine and good that they're saving money by helping people with housing so they can get off of the street and maybe get a job since one cannot get one without a verifiable address in most cases.

My questions are :
1- What are the authorities doing with the money they no longer are spending on incarceration and the like?.
No telling what they'll do, probably buy some tanks and armored cars for the police....

2-Considering they are spending less on the issue we are discussing here, will they demand less taxes in the future?.
Not at all likely, more likely they will steer the funds into another waste of taxpayer dollars to avoid that.

3-Considering they are not spending so much of the money they collect through taxation, are they just going to give
themselves a big fat "Pat themselves on the back for being nicey nice raise?.
Most likely the use they will make of those saved funds.

There is almost always something going on in the shadows in politics that negates any real benefit to anyone but those in power. Like just imagine how many people would be out of a job if they actually cured cancer instead of treating it.

They like to make it appear they are making things better, but they can't with the current system of business and banking.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: EasyPleaseMe

Yes and no. They are arrested for being homeless, but the excuse is that they are loitering on private property and harassing people. Or drunk in public. But in Santa Monica there are lots of homeless people who just camp out on the sidewalks. They aren't messed with. Cops leave them alone. Usually they are actually friendly. Often a bit crazy but friendly at least.

There is/was a homeless man in my neighborhood. Would always hang around this liquor store. Didn't drink but his encampment was a store or two over in the alley. The guy who runs the liquor store is a gruff old persian man. Usually untalkative and unsmiling with the customers. Well that old man hired this homeless guy. Paid him a normal salary, and didn't short him or pay him some sub wage. Paid him what he paid all of his other employees. Turns out the old man was actually a pretty nice guy. So don't judge a book by its cover.

Anyways, this homeless man worked hard, and soon he was getting nearly 40 hours a week of work. Always did a good job. I would go into the liquor store and see him over the months. His health improved, his skin, his outlook on life.

So after almost a year of watching this I go into the liquor store one day and I see him buying beer. The owner wanted to just give it to him, he refused and wanted to pay. I went up to him and said "hey man! I thought you didn't drink" He responded " I'm celebrating tonight!"

I asked him why? "It's my birthday!" he responded. and then after some silence and a pause I saw a tear well up in his eye and he says to me almost in a half broken soft voice, just choked up a bit and goes " I just realized it's the first time I've celebrated my birthday indoors in 5 years" Turned out he had rented his first room about a month ago and was now no longer homeless but paying his way renting a room at a decent looking house down the street by someone in the community who took a chance on renting a room out to a homeless man trying to right himself again.

Just went into that same liquor store last night. He's still working there. Still keeping a roof over his head and even got himself some new kicks. Nowaays he spends his time in between shifts talking with his boss (the old persian man that everybody thinks is mean, cause they never took the time to get to know him) about coin collecting, standing side by side behind the counter looking at coin collection books and catalogs. An old former homeless black man standing 6'3" beside a old persian man standing 5'3" laughing and pointing at coins they hope to find and add to their personal collections. Smiles from ear to ear on both.

So there are ways to help the homeless. Arresting them is usually not the answer and only makes the situation worse. (Granted some do need to be arrested) I applaud and support the decision this city has made and am thrilled at how effective it has been in both helping their local budget, reducing homelessness and ultimately decreasing the net pain and suffering going around. And its not just a "christian" thing. the persian guy in my story is jewish, and the black guy was an athiest.

That's a nice story but it doesn't reflect the reality of many homeless with severe addictions and mental illness. Surely, those who simply need a hand up can benefit from such largesse, but that doesn't seem to be the case with the mentally ill/addicted homeless who have been run through "the system" many times.

Yes - the world is full of nice stories.

As to addiction - there are no degrees of addiction just as there are no degrees of pregnant. The conditions surrounding the addict affect how any addict is perceived by others and self and may appear FROM THE OUTSIDE as better or worse, but you is or you ain't. And the important thing is that we don't get to pronounce whether or not someone is an addict, only they do.

Even hardcore addicts of long standing deserve our help, even the untreatable mentally ill deserve our help and even those whose choose homelessness deserve our help; you can never tell whether or not a given intervention will change a life or not. And all people deserve our respect and compassion.

Again, nice story filled with aphorisms about helping others but it doesn't answer the question of what to do on a practical level about homeless mentally ill/addicts. The notion that only the addict gets to decide if they're an addict is ludicrous. Your post smacks of the naivete of one who has had little real life experience and believes that treating everyone with kindness and respect will produce the same in return.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Tangerine

Of course, but that doesn't prevent them from being homeless.

In my 'outdoor' phase I met lots of people that wanted to be there more than any other place. The stigma of "being less than" when you're "homeless" is a media generated one.

Are you suggesting that nothing be done to end homelessness? Should the homeless be polled to see if they want help? On some level that seems reasonable. However, what then is done about the homeless who cause problems for others by, for example, being drunk or drugged and disorderly in public, occupying public or private property and interfering with other people's rights?

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've asked one person on this site who said she'd been homeless what should be done about the existing homeless who are mentally ill/addicted and she didn't respond. Now I'll ask the same question to anyone on this list who has been homeless. Yes, I know that preventing people from becoming homeless is the ideal solution but I'm asking about those who are already homeless. The problem seems to be that the mentally ill and serious addicts can't function well enough to avoid being evicted. Solutions?

There are many I can imagine. Home health care, social worker visits, etc. However all possible solutions to these specific (mental health and/or addiction) required skilled care by a paid case worker with the time and resources to do the job and in this 'era of austerity', I have trouble imagining the poliitical will being available to anything other then endless war and killing.

.

Home healthcare for the homeless??? Social worker visits for the homeless??? How are either of those things going to help the homeless mentally ill/addicts? These people are already aware of the available services (most have been run through "the system" multiple times). It doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't still be homeless.

No, vists for those in public housing. But now that you mention it, why not have mobile care units? Now you're using constructive imagination - kudos.

The homeless do congregate in certain areas, it would not be difficult or terribly expensive to have mobile health care and social service units.

Great idea Tangerine.

Actually, I'm not the one who suggested it. I believe it has been done and probably does help those who aren't mentally ill/addicts. However, studies have shown that large percentages of the homeless fall into that category and those techniques do not seem to help. They go through the system again and again and still end up homeless despite efforts to help them. That's the problem I'm trying to address.

Has any thought been given to what they're gonna do when another million homeless find out about this and show up?

I've heard rumors about the Malibu police, that they pick their homeless off the streets and dump them in Santa Cruz, which is more 'helpful' to the homeless... of course, SC is loaded with the homeless now.

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Tangerine
a reply to: FyreByrd

I've asked one person on this site who said she'd been homeless what should be done about the existing homeless who are mentally ill/addicted and she didn't respond. Now I'll ask the same question to anyone on this list who has been homeless. Yes, I know that preventing people from becoming homeless is the ideal solution but I'm asking about those who are already homeless. The problem seems to be that the mentally ill and serious addicts can't function well enough to avoid being evicted. Solutions?

There are many I can imagine. Home health care, social worker visits, etc. However all possible solutions to these specific (mental health and/or addiction) required skilled care by a paid case worker with the time and resources to do the job and in this 'era of austerity', I have trouble imagining the poliitical will being available to anything other then endless war and killing.

.

Home healthcare for the homeless??? Social worker visits for the homeless??? How are either of those things going to help the homeless mentally ill/addicts? These people are already aware of the available services (most have been run through "the system" multiple times). It doesn't work. If it did, they wouldn't still be homeless.

No, vists for those in public housing. But now that you mention it, why not have mobile care units? Now you're using constructive imagination - kudos.

The homeless do congregate in certain areas, it would not be difficult or terribly expensive to have mobile health care and social service units.

Great idea Tangerine.

VIsits for the mentally ill/addicts in public housing? What about the rights of others living in public housing to live in peace and not be subjected to the disruptive and sometimes dangerous antics of the mentally ill/addicts? It sounds great to say that everyone deserves a place to live but the reality is that they often make life a living hell for their neighbors. Don't the non-mentally ill/addicted have rights as well?

What a GREAT idea! All too often, people tend to look the other way, however justifiable it MAY be in some cases. Instead of doing the same foolish things from the past that DIDN'T work then, SLC has done some seriously good stuff here. My x-files hat is off to them and to you for a great post! a reply to: FyreByrd