Ebola Disaster in Spain

a reply to: unity100

I understand that but Madrid is a political capital not a tourist or industrial center. Most of Spains heavy industry is in the north. Most influx of tourism is in the south and on the islands. ECT.

Madrid is a political capital. It is not the main hub of commerce or society in Spain.

Places where most trucks, ships and trains pass through, where most tourism goes through, and so on are the places to worry about as far as pandemics are concerned.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: joho99

No, not if the nation she is in does not have first world medical facilities, which clearly, Spain does not.

Yes, Spain is technically a western nation, but it is funded like a third world nation at the moment. That cannot be said of the healthcare system of France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland, Scotland, Finland, or Italy.

www.npr.org...

US is 38, bub. Spain also ranks higher than every country you listed except France and Italy.

US worst healthcare in a developed country

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: unity100

I have been keeping an eye on this. I have most of my family in Spain. I dont even know what to say.

Well I will say this. If Spain had been hit 10 years ago, it would have had
one of the best health care systems in the word to deal with this. NOW, I would place Spain´s healthcare system just above Mexico. Its not even a shell of its former glory. This can only get worse.

I was in Madrid at the time and in the hospital there with a patient (long story). I did not know about this until after I returned to the states.

events transpired around alcorcon and carlos iii hospitals.

I have a package via DHL coming from Madrid to Alicante area.

The package should have been delivered Tuesday.

Tuesday my tracking says there is a delay because of some "fiesta, closed or vacation".

On Wednesday they deliver the package to what is very obviously a BUSINESS at 8am in the morning. 99% of businesses here open at 9am. So they couldn't deliver.
Tracking information again said "couldn't deliver due to fiesta, closed or vacation".
Today (Thursday, package is already 2 days late), I get an email that there is a package waiting and it cannot be delivered.
So I called the lady and told her the place for delivery is a BUSINESS, told her the hours, obviously also mentioned that the business (as pretty much ALL businesses here) are closed between 2pm and 5pm DUE TO SIESTA.

So I told her to deliver TOMORROW, Friday at normal business hours, ok I said, deliver it afternoon but know there is siesta, there won't be anyone there from 2pm to 5pm. We arrange delivery late afternoon, 6pm ish.

An hour later another email comes which is odd since I though we actually arranged everything in the call an hour earlier.
The email says something like "we'll deliver at that location BETWEEN 3PM AND 6PM"

No you cannot effing deliver at that time because there is siesta, no-one will be there from 2pm til 5pm...

So I emailed her to deliver either 9am to 2pm OR afternoon between 5pm or 8pm.

And you think Spain can handle Ebola? : )

originally posted by: unity100

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: unity100

I have been keeping an eye on this. I have most of my family in Spain. I dont even know what to say.

Well I will say this. If Spain had been hit 10 years ago, it would have had
one of the best health care systems in the word to deal with this. NOW, I would place Spain´s healthcare system just above Mexico. Its not even a shell of its former glory. This can only get worse.

I was in Madrid at the time and in the hospital there with a patient (long story). I did not know about this until after I returned to the states.

events transpired around alcorcon and carlos iii hospitals.

Carlos III? Sh#t.

originally posted by: JG1993

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: joho99

No, not if the nation she is in does not have first world medical facilities, which clearly, Spain does not.

Yes, Spain is technically a western nation, but it is funded like a third world nation at the moment. That cannot be said of the healthcare system of France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland, Scotland, Finland, or Italy.

www.npr.org...

US is 38, bub. Spain also ranks higher than every country you listed except France and Italy.

US worst healthcare in a developed country

Two opinion pieces pushing nationalized healthcare in the US are not an indication of the quality of our system.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: unity100

I understand that but Madrid is a political capital not a tourist or industrial center. Most of Spains heavy industry is in the north. Most influx of tourism is in the south and on the islands. ECT.

madrid has quite considerable tourism.

originally posted by: tadaman
Madrid is a political capital. It is not the main hub of commerce or society in Spain.

actually it is the hub of commerce and society in spain. i dont understand where are you getting these opinions from.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JG1993

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: joho99

No, not if the nation she is in does not have first world medical facilities, which clearly, Spain does not.

Yes, Spain is technically a western nation, but it is funded like a third world nation at the moment. That cannot be said of the healthcare system of France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland, Scotland, Finland, or Italy.

www.npr.org...

US is 38, bub. Spain also ranks higher than every country you listed except France and Italy.

US worst healthcare in a developed country

Two opinion pieces pushing nationalized healthcare in the US are not an indication of the quality of our system.

Those 'opinions' are taken from World Health Organization's healthcare ranking. Usa is at #38th in that.

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: NavyDoc

The numbers are based on WHO reports. Lmao. It's not the opinion that is relevant? It's the fact that we spend more than anyone and we are still not even in the top 30. Costa Rica is rated better.

www.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.commonwealthfund.org...

a reply to: unity100

That ranking was done in 2000, I think?

From what i understand, the country has crumbled since then, in a major crisis.
My friends who are from Spain, and the family of my son in law, describe a really horrible situation there right now, financially....

Anyway, meant to say, they might have fallen drastically in their quality of medical care since then...

a reply to: unity100

AGAIN, I UNDERSTAND THAT. Its a metropolitan city with millions of people. What you say can be true for EVERY metropolitan city with millions of people globally.

You make it sound like its Spain's ONLY city and that Spain's population is as dense as the UK or Japan per square mile. Also there is far more commerce and tourism going through other parts of the country. Madrid is the Capital and thats about it. Try telling a Catalan that it is a center for their culture or a basque. Financially speaking, tell all the companies that are based on the Islands or up north that their base of operations is in Madrid. I think they will not agree.


As far as projections about healthcare systems globally..... Spain had an excellent healthcare system before the collapse. It was one of the best in the world, not to mention Europe. Spain used to get medical tourism where tourists would travel with heart conditions or other issues so as to get sick IN SPAIN and receive better treatment than in their home countries. Places like Germany, France, and Italy. That has stopped...that's how I measure a countries healthcare. "Who is trying to be where when they are sick". Spain is not what it was. I said it before, this will only get worse. Spain is only better than Mexico for example as far as healthcare for the knowledge and training still available. Infrastructure wise, its a mess. An absolute mess.

originally posted by: JG1993
a reply to: NavyDoc

The numbers are based on WHO reports. Lmao. It's not the opinion that is relevant? It's the fact that we spend more than anyone and we are still not even in the top 30. Costa Rica is rated better.

www.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.commonwealthfund.org...

Based on what though? Equity? That was stated as on of the criteria in every one of those opinions. If everybody is equally getting crappy care, that is an indictment, not something to strive for. Technologically, quality of care, quality control, we lead the pack. Bureaucracy and expense, we have problems, certainly.

The entire who article was an opinion piece about the "unfairness" of healthcare funding in various countries. Obvious agenda is obvious.

originally posted by: Bluesma
a reply to: unity100

That ranking was done in 2000, I think?

From what i understand, the country has crumbled since then, in a major crisis.
My friends who are from Spain, and the family of my son in law, describe a really horrible situation there right now, financially....

Anyway, meant to say, they might have fallen drastically in their quality of medical care since then...

its not the crisis per se that destroyed healthcare, but the austerity that has been pushed by imf to eu, which in turn pushed austerity to spanish government in order to pay for bank bailouts.

being a right wing government, government also gave a lot of tax breaks to corporations and rich.

and then they went the route of cutting social security, healthcare and various other society critical services to make up for the money.

also they were using these cuts as excuses for privatization, which caused more chaos in healthcare.

since last year medical professionals - docs, nurses and etc- have been protesting and telling that healthcare system was very badly damaged by cuts, and privatization.

so yeah, unfortunately the healthcare system is quite damaged.

but to compare with usa, would be a bit hard. even though in spain now they are giving you one month wait for analysis/rendezvous for certain situations, in many cases they are pretty quick. and pretty much no one is left out - employed, unemployed etc.

if i'd have to compare it with usa in that regard, i'd say that some people (those who can afford) would get very well treatment and prevention for ebola etc in usa, but the masses who couldnt afford it would be left out. in spain, that wouldnt happen.

in that respect, spain is better.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JG1993
a reply to: NavyDoc

The numbers are based on WHO reports. Lmao. It's not the opinion that is relevant? It's the fact that we spend more than anyone and we are still not even in the top 30. Costa Rica is rated better.

www.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.commonwealthfund.org...

Based on what though? Equity? That was stated as on of the criteria in every one of those opinions. If everybody is equally getting crappy care, that is an indictment, not something to strive for. Technologically, quality of care, quality control, we lead the pack. Bureaucracy and expense, we have problems, certainly.

this is what i dont understand about you americans.

"Everybody is getting crappy care"

Even with the crippled healthcare in spain, there is NO such thing. The level of service you get, the professionalism and attention is quite good in all respects. Being underfunded does not change that.

You are someone who has seen europe. it is understandable if you were someone from usa who has never seen abroad, but you did.

how can you STILL propagate a totally incorrect absurd propaganda.

Madrid.





and finally,,,



yes Madrid.
kinda like anywhere u would want too be.

A nice place.

a reply to: unity100

Yeah I agree.

You may take longer to get your meds or treatment, BUT you still get it and a high level of quality care. Sadly, those professionals working now will retire and be replaced with what exactly? Medical students who wont know the work arounds for being understaffed or being under funded?

Things ARE getting worse. That is still true. IMO healthcare and education should not have been considered for cuts as part of the austerity measures. There is no better way for a country to recover than by promoting good health and education. This whole fiasco is a good sign of that.

I dont think Spain will ever reach the level of medical vanguard it once held. That generation is almost all dead or retired. What, are the socialists going to rebuild what the private sector built? I dont think so.

a reply to: tadaman

What I was saying, is that in third world countries, entire families live in relatively small dwellings, many people to a room at most times of night, certainly when the working day is over, coughing, farting, sneezing all in a dwelling which could be just a single story and have a smaller floor plan than a small apartment.

In Spain there are a plethora of different building types and lifestyles, but twelve people do not generally live in a space better suited to being dwelt in by four people.

In many of the countries where the problem is worst, in Africa, the sanitation and sewerage systems are a bloody joke, if they exist at all. In Spain, there is at least underground sewerage infrastructure, albeit perhaps a little less well maintained than it could be.

In West African nations, it is normal to have to travel for a staggering amount of time, just to see a person with medical qualifications as good as a General Practitioner, let alone a hospital epidemiologist. In Spanish towns and cities, there is still a pretence at a healthcare infrastructure.

In West African nations, a greater percentage of the population people live closer to the natural carriers of this disease, the fruitbats, and other animals which can contract the disease, live closer therefore to the source, the untreated source of this virus. In Spain, although there are folk who live close to the animal kingdom, there are also masses of people who live in cities, and have next to no contact with rural affairs.

There are significant advantages therefore, in being in Spain, when compared to being in West Africa. I think it is worth pointing out therefore, that if there is no action from the Spanish government, and things deteriorate, it would be despite the Spanish having a much better set of advantages to work with, than those held by persons in West Africa, and not because they were unlucky.

I am aware of the architecture in Spain, since much of it is amongst the most inspirational work ever rendered in stone and brick, certainly the bits of it done by Gaudi at any rate. I am also aware that although the dwelling places are packed together, there are less people to a household generally, and that those households are better served by waste disposal on average, by a HUGE degree, than buildings containing the same number of people in West Africa.

So the only difference which I see being a proper player here, is that Spainish government are incapable of working to their advantages, and that people are in a much better position generally to avoid transmission of the virus, even in the most densely populated area of Spain, than those living in groups in the most sparsely populated regions of West Africa.

This virus has killed whole families in West Africa. I am pretty certain that this will not be the case in Spain.

originally posted by: tadaman
Spain used to get medical tourism where tourists would travel with heart conditions or other issues so as to get sick IN SPAIN and receive better treatment than in their home countries. Places like Germany, France, and Italy. That has stopped...

Actually, people from France never did medical tourism to Spain- their healthcare quality and coverage was, and is, much better. (number 1 on that particular rating....)
Minor point though... carry on....

originally posted by: unity100

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JG1993
a reply to: NavyDoc

The numbers are based on WHO reports. Lmao. It's not the opinion that is relevant? It's the fact that we spend more than anyone and we are still not even in the top 30. Costa Rica is rated better.

www.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.commonwealthfund.org...

Based on what though? Equity? That was stated as on of the criteria in every one of those opinions. If everybody is equally getting crappy care, that is an indictment, not something to strive for. Technologically, quality of care, quality control, we lead the pack. Bureaucracy and expense, we have problems, certainly.

this is what i dont understand about you americans.

"Everybody is getting crappy care"

Even with the crippled healthcare in spain, there is NO such thing. The level of service you get, the professionalism and attention is quite good in all respects. Being underfunded does not change that.

You are someone who has seen europe. it is understandable if you were someone from usa who has never seen abroad, but you did.

how can you STILL propagate a totally incorrect absurd propaganda.

I never said that everyone else got "Crappy" care, I was just refuting the obvious anti-US and agenda filled propaganda. I said "equity" is not a good measure because everyone can still be getting crappy care but you would have a lot of "equity"--just bad equity.

I found Charles III hospital quite adequate, the physicians knowledgeable and professional, and their treatment of my travelling companion exactly the same I would have done myself. Spain is not a 3rd world country by any stretch.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

Based on what though? Equity? That was stated as on of the criteria in every one of those opinions. If everybody is equally getting crappy care, that is an indictment, not something to strive for. Technologically, quality of care, quality control, we lead the pack.

You seem to be confused...
Quality of care is the main point. Looked at from many angles. Equity was just one of the things measured. Here's 2010, (though only a few countries were included in this one, it still shows that crappy care in not "elsewhere", that's a lie.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: unity100

Yeah I agree.

You may take longer to get your meds or treatment, BUT you still get it and a high level of quality care. Sadly, those professionals working now will retire and be replaced with what exactly? Medical students who wont know the work arounds for being understaffed or being under funded?

Things ARE getting worse. That is still true. IMO healthcare and education should not have been considered for cuts as part of the austerity measures. There is no better way for a country to recover than by promoting good health and education. This whole fiasco is a good sign of that.

I dont think Spain will ever reach the level of medical vanguard it once held. That generation is almost all dead or retired. What, are the socialists going to rebuild what the private sector built? I dont think so.

I dont trust the socialists at this point (PSOE), because they had been acting as if they were right wing in their last term. they can easily push privatization with that mindset.

i think the only way to correct the political spectrum, which had gone TOO FAR right, is to go for far left. i think izquierda unida, who are dubbed 'radical left' by right wing media but who are hilariously merely 'left' in today's political spectrum, can fix the problem. and when the political spectrum comes to balance and there is a left and right again (not right vs extreme right), then a center left party can keep things going.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: unity100

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JG1993
a reply to: NavyDoc

The numbers are based on WHO reports. Lmao. It's not the opinion that is relevant? It's the fact that we spend more than anyone and we are still not even in the top 30. Costa Rica is rated better.

www.who.int...
www.who.int...
www.commonwealthfund.org...

Based on what though? Equity? That was stated as on of the criteria in every one of those opinions. If everybody is equally getting crappy care, that is an indictment, not something to strive for. Technologically, quality of care, quality control, we lead the pack. Bureaucracy and expense, we have problems, certainly.

this is what i dont understand about you americans.

"Everybody is getting crappy care"

Even with the crippled healthcare in spain, there is NO such thing. The level of service you get, the professionalism and attention is quite good in all respects. Being underfunded does not change that.

You are someone who has seen europe. it is understandable if you were someone from usa who has never seen abroad, but you did.

how can you STILL propagate a totally incorrect absurd propaganda.

I never said that everyone else got "Crappy" care, I was just refuting the obvious anti-US and agenda filled propaganda. I said "equity" is not a good measure because everyone can still be getting crappy care but you would have a lot of "equity"--just bad equity.

I found Charles III hospital quite adequate, the physicians knowledgeable and professional, and their treatment of my travelling companion exactly the same I would have done myself. Spain is not a 3rd world country by any stretch.

im at a loss to see how socialized healthcare, social services, public education can be 'anti-US'.

Usa was LEADING the world in these back in 1950s, in its golden age.

true, spain is not a 3rd world country yet. but looking from what neoliberalization done to countries like mexico, it may become one if the way things are going is not prevented.

see, 1-2 years of defunding, privatization, cuts, and this thing happened.