Ebola Disaster in Spain

a reply to: joho99

So again... they should ask for help, not sit there playing the blame game until their own organs liquify within their abdomens!

It does not matter what spin gets put on it, or what angle this issue gets approached from, the solution is the same. Anyone care to comment on that?

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: unity100
to totally contain the virus wherever it is found,

the time to do that was long time ago. refer to the above post.

When, and only when, they fail to do that, and people begin to die in their hundreds

you apparently dont know enough about contagiousness of infectious diseases - when people begin to die in the hundreds from something as infectious as ebola, it means that there are tens of thousands who are already infected but not yet showing symptoms, and its all over.

at that point you cant do anything but wait the pandemic to die out like in the spanish flu.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Do you not grasp the probable implications of a western nurse getting infected in a western hospital so early in the game?

a reply to: unity100

I know that all that is required to stop a disease which has NOT become airborne, is diagnosis, followed by isolation and treatment, and let me be clear, even isolation and NO treatment would stop the outbreak, if properly managed.It would be a horrible, inhumane way to do it, but it would be possible.

If the Spanish government act today, they could save countless thousands of lives. If they wait until next week however, or the week after before putting their ego aside and actually ACTING in this matter, then they would basically be condemning people to death, purely to keep face. Again, lets forget how much time has already been wasted, since dwelling upon it does not get the work done, and is therefore not important at this stage. Let us also forget the possible worst case scenario, and lets think about what needs to be done, now, today, to get this thing dealt with effectively .

There is no sense crying over spilled milk, blood, urine samples, IV bags, or experimental anti-virals. All that matters now, is getting something done to make whatever future remains to the people of Spain, and for that matter the people of Sierra Leone, and the other affected regions, one worth living in, albeit without some of the people who have or will now unavoidably die from Ebola.

a reply to: joho99

No, not if the nation she is in does not have first world medical facilities, which clearly, Spain does not.

There are no implications beyond those which exist for any other nation which has an unacceptable and inexplicable lack of appropriate healthcare infrastructure. Yes, Spain is technically a western nation, but it is funded like a third world nation at the moment. That cannot be said of the healthcare system of France, Germany, Sweden, Norway, England, Ireland, Scotland, Finland, or Italy. Some of the Eastern European nations might be more vulnerable to Ebola, I know for example, that the nations bordering Ukraine to the West and indeed Ukraine itself will have greater difficulty than the more west lying regions, simply because there are problems in the way they also are funded. However, I fail to see what you are driving at.

I do not see a death in Europe any differently than the way I see a death in Africa. Neither are in any way acceptable, so I see little difference.

Well, trubrit. i very much think that you need to do some research on how ebola gets transmitted. there is a reason why people are freaking out because teresa used the underground.

According to CNN, the Spanish nurse has taken "a turn for the worse."

Additional source: www.theglobeandmail.com...

a reply to: unity100

And what is different about that? If Ebola reached say... India, for example, their trains are constantly packed to the gunnels. Things would be MUCH worse there!

So what are you getting at exactly?

a reply to: TrueBrit

I expect we will be hearing it was the medical facilities or equipment a lot over the next few months just like the previous months.

a reply to: joho99

Well, if the Spanish government intend to continue to play pass the buck with all the vigour of a pair of world class tennis players, smashing it back and forth across a parliament floor, then of course, nothing will improve, no lives will be saved during that process, and Spain will be pretty much doomed.

They need to act, no one is disputing that. However, the situation is as yet FAR from unrecoverable. They just need to get moving, get appropriate triage set up for the disease in every town, every city, every small farming community, and stop wasting time, either that, or call in an organisation from outside the nation which actually has people who know what they are doing.

If Spain's government refuses to do this, then I am of the opinion that the EU should send a force combining military and medical experts, to take the Spanish government into custody, while installing the correct care facilities at the same time. Clearly having people who would rather start an argument than solve a problem in the government there, is causing danger for not just Spain, but the rest of Europe, and indeed the world.

a reply to: TrueBrit

i agree the situation is as yet far from unrecoverable.
But this is just a battle not the war.

And thats my point they lost a early easy battle wait till they have to cope with 100 or 1000 people.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: unity100

And what is different about that? If Ebola reached say... India, for example, their trains are constantly packed to the gunnels. Things would be MUCH worse there!

So what are you getting at exactly?

ebola transmits through aerosol principle - moisture in your breath, spit particles when talking, your body sweat on the hand you put on a subway seat, your poo. touching your face.

therefore it is quite contagious.

the 'if hundreds are dying' stage you talk about, would mean that tens of thousands already infected and in line to suffer the sickness.

a reply to: unity100

What I mean is, what is the difference between these factors effecting western society, where many dwellings are single or couple occupancy, and these things happening in properly third world locations, where dwellings are far more tightly packed, family sizes greater by and large...

I really do not see how an outbreak in Spain is any different. The only difference I can see, is that foolishly, the government of Spain shot itself in the foot, and is now busy hopping, rather than getting down on the ground and elevating the injured limb.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: unity100

What I mean is, what is the difference between these factors effecting western society, where many dwellings are single or couple occupancy, and these things happening in properly third world locations, where dwellings are far more tightly packed, family sizes greater by and large...

there is massive difference.

the environments which suffer now from ebola in africa are quite less urbanized, with quite less technology. transportation - especially mass transportation - is quite lacking compared to western countries. this helps isolate the disease greatly, despite these places are located next to ebola deposits.

'dwellings are tightly packed in 3rd world' -> no such thing exists. in case you havent followed news videos of the places where now there is an ebola outbreak, they are nothing as such. they are rural areas.

if you dont know, in spain, the apartment the affected nurse is living in is a massive apartment complex in madrid. neighbors are have started disinfecting the building days ago, and yesterday madrid government entered the flat to disinfect it.

but more importnatly, western society is much more urbanized and quite fast paced. with massive passenger transport happening. madrid subway for example. a very busy subway in a 4.5 million~ city where people move about en masse every day. or take london subway.






I really do not see how an outbreak in Spain is any different. The only difference I can see, is that foolishly, the government of Spain shot itself in the foot, and is now busy hopping, rather than getting down on the ground and elevating the injured limb.

a reply to: unity100

I said the DWELLINGS were tightly packed. And they are. A mother, father and more than half a dozen kids in a house which has a smaller floor plan than the two bedroom apartment I live in, is a greater hazard for contagion than ANY urban habitat in a Western nation. A hell of a lot worse.

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: unity100

I said the DWELLINGS were tightly packed. And they are. A mother, father and more than half a dozen kids in a house which has a smaller floor plan than the two bedroom apartment I live in, is a greater hazard for contagion than ANY urban habitat in a Western nation. A hell of a lot worse.

No, not that much. 'dwellings' are tightly packed, but not that much. buildings and urbanization is MUCH less dense.

now compare that environment to a massive apartment complex in which everyone touches the same doorknob, elevator buttons.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Western nations off the top of my head

School rooms packed.
Stadiums packed.
Trains packed.
Buses packed.

The list can go on and on.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I think you may be a little confused. In cities like Barcelona and Madrid, like NYC for example, there is a reductionist styled architecture because space is an issue. If you go elsewhere you will see different designs for structures.

I think you may be generalizing. In Spain I have seen everything from American type homes with acres and acres of land that are several stories high for a single family, as well as Island type edifices like that of Japan or the UK where people are tightly lumped together.

In my families home city in Spain most homes are actually pretty large. There is plenty of open land for cheap and people take up the space with less concentrations of the population in one place.

Hell, even the new apartment buildings built in the last decade are large and well spaced. Thats for 80+% of the country too. Spain spent untold billions in modern architecture for the country as a whole. Thats part of their financial problems now too. Spain created a booming construction industry that was built around the brick and have been struggling ever since the global financial collapse to change gears into other industries. They didnt repeat the architectural styles of the past. The new structures are quite large compared to most European standards.

I see what you are saying, but you just made Spain sound like Japan architecturally. In certain parts what you say is true....but it is also true for every single other country in the world as well.

I think we should start looking at the possibility that large cities like NYC are going to be a thing of the past. Its far too dangerous to have that may people in one place.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: TrueBrit

I think you may be a little confused. In cities like Barcelona and Madrid, like NYC for example, there is a certain reductionist style architecture because space is an issue. If you go elsewhere you will see different designs for structures.

I think you may be generalizing. In Spain I have seen everything from American type homes with acres and acres of land that are several stories high for a single family, as well as Island type edifices like that of Japan or the UK where people are tightly lumped together.

I see what you are saying, but you just made Spain sound like Japan architecturally. In certain parts what you say is true....but it is also true for every single other country in the world as well.

I think we should start looking at the possibility that large cities like NYC are going to be a thing of the past. Its far too dangerous to have that may people in one place.

'american type homes with acres and acres of land' => those do not exist in madrid city center or any of the surrounding suburbs. madrid is packed. im not even talking about the dense, tall huge residential complexes in circumference of madrid. im talking about madrid city center, which is itself packed with historical apartments side by side - with no space in between the buildings themselves.

madrid is the hub of entire spain, a 4.5 million city. not to mention, its airport is the transit airport in between south america and much of europe.

when we are talking about spain, we are talking about madrid in this context. the random village in asturias does not factor into the equation.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: unity100

I have been keeping an eye on this. I have most of my family in Spain. I dont even know what to say.

Well I will say this. If Spain had been hit 10 years ago, it would have had
one of the best health care systems in the word to deal with this. NOW, I would place Spain´s healthcare system just above Mexico. Its not even a shell of its former glory. This can only get worse.

I was in Madrid at the time and in the hospital there with a patient (long story). I did not know about this until after I returned to the states.