Proof : Russia didn`t want to face the decision of having to intervene

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: Xcathdra
You kinda downplaying it to "blog information"
Poor Assange wouldn't be hiding in London if it all was fake

The blog quotes the cable out of context, twisting it to mean something it does not. All the cables really prove is that the US and NATO knew that Putin would react negatively if Ukraine were to be allowed to join NATO, which is why NATO did not let them in. Once again, this is solid evidence that "the West" is not responsible for the situation in Ukraine. On the other hand, Putin has made out like a bandit, which throws suspicion on him.

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: Xcathdra
You kinda downplaying it to "blog information"
Poor Assange wouldn't be hiding in London if it all was fake

Uhm no...

A blog is a personal opinion. He is trying to make an argument using information from 2008. I am saying its 2014 so the info he is using is out of date, and that can lead to him drawing conclusions based on out of date material.

maybe you can shed some light on this -

Why, if you guys want facts, are so willing to accept information from 2008 while at the same time ignoring the fact the info is from 2008?

Can you not make your case using current facts and information? Or is your position so shaky that using out of date info is the only way to maintain the agenda?

Are you that scared of the truth? Are you that scared Pro Russians / Russian accidentally shot the aircraft down?

a reply to: DJW001

This document "cable leak" just shows that indeed USA was well aware about possible Russian reaction

Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns. Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).

1. (C) Summary. Following a muted first reaction to
Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP)
at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and
other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition,
stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion
as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement,
particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic"
issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also
underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and
Georgia. In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue
could potentially split the country in two, leading to
violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force
Russia to decide whether to intervene.

Subsequent events showed that civil war indeed happened. We don't have proves, like saying from US ambassador
"Let's make this civil war happen" , those kind of documents if they exist were made much later and under more rigorous grief of secrecy

a reply to: kitzik

Please explain why you think a cable from 2008 is relevant being Ukraine opted not to join NATO in 2010?

Secondly, it does not matter what Russia thinks. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and can decide for themselves the direction they want to take.

The very fact Putin still think s he can dictate to former SSR's just reinforces my belief he has lost touch of reality.

a reply to: kitzik

Subsequent events showed that civil war indeed happened. We don't have proves, like saying from US ambassador
"Let's make this civil war happen" , those kind of documents if they exist were made much later and under more rigorous grief of secrecy

IF they exist... the problem is, since the US was well aware of the consequences, it probably means that the US did not do anything.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

isn't the fact that US messes with other countries common knowledge

like all the time

a reply to: Xcathdra

The very fact Putin still think s he can dictate to former SSR's just reinforces my belief he has lost touch of reality.

The problem lies in the fact that Ukraine de facto never achieved state of independence.
Half of their secret service SBU are CIA agents the other half - FSB - russian.

It was split by those who preferred $ from West and those who remembered they are almost russians anyway.

a reply to: DJW001

Your conclusion that they "did nothing" is premature. If USA would find the benefit for themselves they would do what they want.

Ok, I found another "leaked cable"
https://__._/plusd/cables/09MOSCOW2_a.html

The analysts agreed that Russian behavior on the world
stage was often a reaction to how Russia perceived its treatment by
the U.S. Belkin posited that if Russia was called a "rogue state"
often enough, it was bound to behave like one. Oznobischev raised
the oft-heard objection to the U.S. pushing NATO enlargement without
taking Russian security concerns into account, and complained that
"nothing substantial" was done in the way of NATO-Russia cooperation
apart from some coordination on Afghanistan. He advised that in a
partnership, one partner should think about how the other "perceived
things." Cooperation needed to be sincere, and not just an attempt
to "use Russia." Rep. Larsen responded that if the U.S. did not
adopt policies that Russia agreed with, Russians appeared to believe
that the U.S. did not think "Russia mattered," which was inaccurate.

Nothing shocking, but still may be interesting to see how diplomats see it back in 2009

a reply to: kitzik

Your conclusion that they "did nothing" is premature. If USA would find the benefit for themselves they would do what they want.

It is the members who have deluded themselves into thinking that these cables prove anything beyond the known fact that Ukraine wanted to join NATO in 2008 but NATO rebuffed them out of deference to Russia's "feelings," who have jumped to conclusions. These cables simply are not evidence of "western" malfeasance.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

What does a blog using information dating back to 2008 have to do with whats currently going on?

for the moment we will ignore the source as we have had issues with it in the past.

Secondly it ignores the fact Ukraine turned down NATO membership in 2010. Even recently they had no desire to join, up until Russia invaded them.

Is this what we get to expect from you guys now? Blog posts using inaccurate info and spin on your part to try and portray it as something its not?

All this hows is how out of touch and paranoid Putin is. Russia does not control the countries in question and should get used to the fact they cant dictate to them anymore. The only reason Russia feels surrounded is because of how they treat their neighbors. Maybe if russia had not occupied them for so long there would have been no need for those nations to ask the west for assistance and protection.

Huge rhetoric.

Russia is an important player on the world stage. It has a sphere of influence, just like China and USA have.

The events causing the turmoil today are related to a fake revolution through Nazis in Ukraine.

There is no need of NATO, let alone NATO expansion. NATO is the cause of wars. Let nations learn to adjust to other nations and deal on the basis of realpolitik.

originally posted by: MrSpad
Yeah so did you bother to read the entire thing? It talks about how Russia portrays the US and NATO as an enemy to stir up Russian nationals in Georgia and Ukraine. It talks about how Russia acceoted that those states have the right to and would likely join NATO and that it would re-evaluate its ties to them. And its say Russia would likely cause trouble for these states. It also shows almots a complete lack of intrest in NATO having them join.

Pointing out the obvious is lost on a small overly vocal minority.



OP,

Thanks for posting this. Very informative, enlightening and revealing....

Doh!

The source (zerohedge) has been a bastion of pro-Russian propaganda lately. As others have already pointed out, the fact that NATO turned down Ukraine's desired to join as early as 2008 should settle the question of it's role.

a reply to: GargIndia

Russia is an important player on the world stage. It has a sphere of influence, just like China and USA have.

Russia would like to be a player on the world stage. Its sphere of influence shrank rapidly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, Vladimir Putin has chosen to expand its sphere of influence by force of arms rather than "soft power."

The events causing the turmoil today are related to a fake revolution through Nazis in Ukraine.

Are you saying that the events that started back in November 2013 did not really happen? As for the Nazi smear,you know that the neo-Nazis were a tiny minority in the Maidan movement but are well represented in "Novorossiya."

There is no need of NATO, let alone NATO expansion. NATO is the cause of wars. Let nations learn to adjust to other nations and deal on the basis of realpolitik.

The fact the Putin has invaded its neighbor is proof that NATO is needed now more than ever. NATO stops wars, not starts the. Prove it otherwise.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
The source (zerohedge) has been a bastion of pro-Russian propaganda lately. As others have already pointed out, the fact that NATO turned down Ukraine's desired to join as early as 2008 should settle the question of it's role.

As I have patiently explained elsewhere, zerohedge exists to scare nervous small time investors into selling their stocks so that brokers can make a commission. There are complimentary sites that excite optimistic small time investors into buying stock so that brokers can make a commission.

a reply to: DJW001

I think it goes deeper than that, the main contributor/possible owner at Zerohedge is Daniel Ivandjiiski, an immigrant from Bulgaria who was barred from financial trading for insider trading. His father ran the "Bulgaria Confidential" tabloid back in Bulgaria, and Bulgaria lately has been siding with Russia in most EU matters.

With RT recognized as state-run propaganda here on ATS, I think the pro-Russian propagandists have to find other avenues to get their messages out. Ivandjiiski appears to now be that outlet.

a reply to: Blackmarketeer

With RT recognized as state-run propaganda here on ATS, I think the pro-Russian propagandists have to find other avenues to get their messages out. Ivandjiiski appears to now be that outlet.

That makes sense. In fact, zerohedge is a perfect propaganda conduit because, unlike RT, which is a known organ of the Russian state, it allows for plausible deniability.

It looks like russia has begun withdrawing their forces, which is impressive being they said they had none in Ukraine. it also looks like the rebels are not able to read since they just broke the treaty they signed.

Poroshenko says east Ukraine 'radically changed' since truce

Kiev (AFP) - Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said on Wednesday that the situation in the war-torn east had changed dramatically since a truce was signed last week, with most Russian troops withdrawn.

But he again vowed that the separatist eastern regions, where the rebels have declared their own republics, would remain part of Ukraine, saying there was a "war for the independence and integrity" of the country.

"Ukraine will not make any concessions on issues of its territorial integrity," he told a cabinet meeting.

Despite the defiant tone from Poroshenko, a rebel leader insisted the separatists still intended to break away from Kiev's rule.

"We are not considering remaining part of Ukraine," Andrei Purgin, the deputy prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, told AFP in Moscow.

Click link for remainder of article...


Why sign the cease fire if they have no intentions of abiding by it?

a reply to: DJW001

These cables simply are not evidence of "western" malfeasance.

This cables are not, but Nuland's cookies and secret visit of Director of CIA to Kiev
rt.com... looking highly suspicious.

I see people don't like RT here, but I'm just pointing out the fact of personal CIA Director visit, which by itself is quite extraordinary.
Ok, from Forbes, you not going to tell me that Forbes is also pro-russian bastion

So Brennan might have shared data on how to get past the jamming. The same kind of forensic struggle applies to aerial combat, a rare thing these days but one that may become decisive if ground-based missiles prove ineffectual. Since the Russians can hack into any kind of long-distance chatter about such details between the US and Kiev, Brennan probably had to physically hand them over to his Ukrainian interlocutors. That is, to fully vetted individuals, because as we’ve seen repeatedly during the current crisis, not least in the Maidan, Russian spies masquerading as Ukrainian patriots are not uncommon. Ukraine’s politicians and military personnel (though not nearly as much) have a long history of divided loyalties.

www.forbes.com...

originally posted by: kitzik
a reply to: DJW001

These cables simply are not evidence of "western" malfeasance.

This cables are not, but Nuland's cookies and secret visit of Director of CIA to Kiev
rt.com... looking highly suspicious.

How many times are you guys going to try and bring the same info with the same false spin up in these topics? The info has been debunked.


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