Pennsylvania mother who gave daughter abortion pill gets prison

originally posted by: NavyDoc
None of those are anywhere near the acuity if a surgical abortion.

A. Look up acuity.
B. This thread isn't about a surgical abortion. It's about an Induction Abortion, which is not surgery.
C. You continue to act as though we're arguing about the number of visits to the Dr., abortion itself or some other subject. You're just deflecting. A woman should be able to visit her LOCAL clinic or Dr. (not one 74 miles away). THAT is the argument. If that were an option, we wouldn't have this thread at all and this mother wouldn't be headed to prison.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
A woman should be able to visit her LOCAL clinic or Dr. (not one 74 miles away).

Geez, how many times have I posted that in this thread?

While I do want women's reproductive choices available over counter, because I stand by it being their choice --- it is (and has been throughout this thread) LOCAL women's clinics I'm in favor of.

And I want them Federally protected.

Seriously,

I've had a spontaneous abortion, elective abortion, 2 kids, hysterectomy, separated uterine lining, blocked Fallopian tube, breast tumor, fibroid tumor of the uterus, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.

Do I really need a man-off-the-street, religious fanatics, or politicians legislating my choices in women's health care?

I say NOT!

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: NavyDoc
None of those are anywhere near the acuity if a surgical abortion.

A. Look up acuity.
B. This thread isn't about a surgical abortion. It's about an Induction Abortion, which is not surgery.
C. You continue to act as though we're arguing about the number of visits to the Dr., abortion itself or some other subject. You're just deflecting. A woman should be able to visit her LOCAL clinic or Dr. (not one 74 miles away). THAT is the argument. If that were an option, we wouldn't have this thread at all and this mother wouldn't be headed to prison.

First of all, I used "acuity" appropriately:

High acuity medicine refers to medical interventions designed to treat seriously ill patients used in the hospital, emergency department, assisted care facilities, or other medically staffed specialized settings. They also include complex outpatient products that require specialized means of administration, exceptional vigilance in monitoring

The higher acuity a situation or procedure, the higher the qualifications of the staff and the facilities involved. A blood draw is low acuity, an abortion is moderate acuity, and a heart-lung transplant is very high acuity. Don't try to play the medical knowledge game with me, M'kay?


And what qualifications do you want? I travel 50 miles with my kid to the neurologist each way because in rural area, there just are not that density of specialists.

It is the argument. You demand a local clinic? Okay, what does that define? What capabilities? What responsibilities? What can they handle and what should they send to a higher level of care? Do you give those issues thought or just think dammit we need a "clinic" around the corner?

A woman should be able to visit a local clinic for everything from a brain aneurism to an ingrown toenail, but that is not practicable for any and all situations. Why do you demand less qualifications from an abortion clinic than from any other clinic that does procedures of the same ACUITY?

originally posted by: Annee
Seriously,

I've had a spontaneous abortion, elective abortion, 2 kids, hysterectomy, separated uterine lining, blocked Fallopian tube, breast tumor, fibroid tumor of the uterus, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.

Do I really need a man-off-the-street, religious fanatics, or politicians legislating my choices in women's health care?

I say NOT!

Shrug. And I've actually done something you have never done. I've actually performed abortions. Who of the two of us understands what is medically necessary and safe for such a procedure?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

NO, you are talking about a layman demanding what they think they want and need when that is not necessarily the case.

Medicine is not a vending machine. What a patient may think they want or need may not be necessarily what they have nor need and the example is very apt. If you walk into a surgeons office and claim you have an aneurysm and demand surgery, a responsible one is going to do a thorough history and physical, an exam, discuss the findings and risks vs benefits of the intervention, schedule and do the intervention, and then provide follow up care. Anything less is not standard of care.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

This issue is not as simple as "gimme my pills" and it is idiotic to think it is.

If it was made OTC (which it is not anywhere in the western world) then would you support suing the manufacturer and pharmacists when people had complications or would you say "well, it was their choice, they took the risks?"

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
Seriously,

I've had a spontaneous abortion, elective abortion, 2 kids, hysterectomy, separated uterine lining, blocked Fallopian tube, breast tumor, fibroid tumor of the uterus, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.

Do I really need a man-off-the-street, religious fanatics, or politicians legislating my choices in women's health care?

I say NOT!

Shrug. And I've actually done something you have never done. I've actually performed abortions. Who of the two of us understands what is medically necessary and safe for such a procedure?

I don't care. No one is making light of any invasive medical procedure.

Was it your choice to have it?

Yet you are advocating to make it more difficult for women to have medical abortions.

This is about having the Right of Choice, and primarily LOCAL women's clinics so women can make safe and informed choices.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee
Seriously,

I've had a spontaneous abortion, elective abortion, 2 kids, hysterectomy, separated uterine lining, blocked Fallopian tube, breast tumor, fibroid tumor of the uterus, and I'm sure I'm leaving something out.

Do I really need a man-off-the-street, religious fanatics, or politicians legislating my choices in women's health care?

I say NOT!

Shrug. And I've actually done something you have never done. I've actually performed abortions. Who of the two of us understands what is medically necessary and safe for such a procedure?

I don't care. No one is making light of any invasive medical procedure.

Was it your choice to have it?

Yet you are advocating to make it more difficult for women to have medical abortions.

This is about having the Right of Choice, and primarily LOCAL women's clinics so women can make safe and informed choices.

That you don't care is obvious. You seem to have a fanatical love for abortion, regardless of medical or fiscal reality. Some things are simply not safe to do the way you want them to do it an no amount of your irrational emotionality will change that fact.

NO, I am advocating that abortion clinics have the same standards that every other clinic that performs procedures with the same level of invasiveness that every other clinic has.

You are the one who wants to compromise quality over quantity.

And no, it's not about "choice." That is a hypocritical stance as there are plenty of "choices" you would gladly see removed from other people.

You want abortion clinics specifically, without the same standards or accountability, without any effort, cost, or forethought to get to and utilized all for "free" and federally mandated.

a reply to: NavyDoc

You've performed a surgical abortion.

Yet you don't support LOCAL women's clinics, offering immediate and low cost care ---- and medical abortion.

You're all in favor of this woman having to drive 74 mikes one way, 3 to 4 times --- by PA law.

You are part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: NavyDoc

You've performed a surgical abortion.

Yet you don't support LOCAL women's clinics, offering immediate and low cost care ---- and medical abortion.

You're all in favor of this woman having to drive 74 mikes one way, 3 to 4 times --- by PA law.

You are part of the problem. Not part of the solution.

No. I want medical standards to be kept up, regardless of irrational emotional ideology. A local clinic should do what a local clinic does. A place that does minor surgeries should do what places that do minor surgeries do.

These standards are in place everywhere in the western world.

You want a service at your convenience without any cost or effort for you.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

No. I want medical standards to be kept up, regardless of irrational emotional ideology. A local clinic should do what a local clinic does. A place that does minor surgeries should do what places that do minor surgeries do.

These standards are in place everywhere in the western world.

You want a service at your convenience without any cost or effort for you.

I want options and choices.

Most women's needs do not require more then a clinic.

Clinics have trained staff. Anything more then they are qualified for they refer.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

No. I want medical standards to be kept up, regardless of irrational emotional ideology. A local clinic should do what a local clinic does. A place that does minor surgeries should do what places that do minor surgeries do.

These standards are in place everywhere in the western world.

You want a service at your convenience without any cost or effort for you.

I want options and choices.

Most women's needs do not require more then a clinic.

Clinics have trained staff. Anything more then they are qualified for they refer.

And that's what the proposition states--that abortion clinics establish the same facilities and standards that any other clinic with the same level of care has. Pass out pills and advice? One standard. Want to do procedures? Another standard. I cannot legally do many of my office procedures without admitting privileges at the hospital. The onus is on the provider to maintain the same standard of care. Of course, that will bite into profit.

Who is deflecting now. Earlier, you didn't say you just wanted "choice." You said available everywhere for free. A big difference there.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
And that's what the proposition states--that abortion clinics establish the same facilities and standards that any other clinic with the same level of care has.

That is total BS. And Right Wing propaganda, for the most part.

I had my surgical abortion early 70s. I've been "chatting" online since ICQ, long before ATS.

I am very aware of all that's been going on with shutting down women's clinics, and the trumped up excuses.

Did you know one of President Bush's first "acts" was to cut all funding to women's clinics outside the US? Why? Because all they do is perform abortions. According to the Right Wing.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

Believe it or not, it's like that in some places. My boyfriends sister hypes up a lot of her health problems, and she's gone into the E.R. and demanded certain medications and will get them just because she's there all the time.

Aren't you supposed to direct the patient to a doctor that specializes in that sort of thing if it's an ongoing problem?

I mean, I have Lupus and if I go to the E.R. they act like I'm a damn drug fiend. And I don't ask for anything, other than something that can get my flare under control. She'll ask for EVERYTHING. BY NAME. And knows when she doesn't get it.

Anyways, bottom line of this mini rant is that there are some places that will just give you anything. Without tests. Is it wrong? Yes. But that's a problem that has to be worked out with the medical system.

I agree with you that females should see a doctor in order to get the pill. But by no means should it be hard to get. I mean.. I wouldn't go to a back alley to get an abortion. I wouldn't contact someone online to give me an abortion. I would go to a doctor.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc
And that's what the proposition states--that abortion clinics establish the same facilities and standards that any other clinic with the same level of care has.

That is total BS. And Right Wing propaganda, for the most part.

I had my surgical abortion early 70s. I've been "chatting" online since ICQ, long before ATS.

I am very aware of all that's been going on with shutting down women's clinics, and the trumped up excuses.

Did you know one of President Bush's first "acts" was to cut all funding to women's clinics outside the US? Why? Because all they do is perform abortions. According to the Right Wing.

AH, see the fanatical political ideology comes out yet again. Yes, we all know you have had abortions, your daughter had had abortions--its a family tradition.

"Choice" and "I want someone to fund my poor choices" are two radically different things.

Since we're talking propaganda, you got the entitlement leftist down pat. The fact that every other western country has these standards, even without an "evil right wing republithug party" shows that you have a bit of a delusion going on.

As I've said before--the emotional fanatics on both sides of the issue are interesting. An anti-abortion fanatic will insist on nothing done, at any stage--even pre-implantation--at all.

The pro-abortion fanatic will resist quite emotionally any suggestion of individual responsibility or accountability or standards that meet every other standard and demand someone else pay for their "choice."

A lot of "derp" on both sides of the issue.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

Believe it or not, it's like that in some places. My boyfriends sister hypes up a lot of her health problems, and she's gone into the E.R. and demanded certain medications and will get them just because she's there all the time.

Aren't you supposed to direct the patient to a doctor that specializes in that sort of thing if it's an ongoing problem?

I mean, I have Lupus and if I go to the E.R. they act like I'm a damn drug fiend. And I don't ask for anything, other than something that can get my flare under control. She'll ask for EVERYTHING. BY NAME. And knows when she doesn't get it.

Anyways, bottom line of this mini rant is that there are some places that will just give you anything. Without tests. Is it wrong? Yes. But that's a problem that has to be worked out with the medical system.

I agree with you that females should see a doctor in order to get the pill. But by no means should it be hard to get. I mean.. I wouldn't go to a back alley to get an abortion. I wouldn't contact someone online to give me an abortion. I would go to a doctor.

I don't think I said it should be hard to get. In fact I think if you read back, I was agreeing with the other poster who had difficulty getting the medication.

What I have been putting out is that all medical practices should be held to the same standards of care for medical reasons, not political, religious, or emotional ones.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

Believe it or not, it's like that in some places. My boyfriends sister hypes up a lot of her health problems, and she's gone into the E.R. and demanded certain medications and will get them just because she's there all the time.

Aren't you supposed to direct the patient to a doctor that specializes in that sort of thing if it's an ongoing problem?

I mean, I have Lupus and if I go to the E.R. they act like I'm a damn drug fiend. And I don't ask for anything, other than something that can get my flare under control. She'll ask for EVERYTHING. BY NAME. And knows when she doesn't get it.

Anyways, bottom line of this mini rant is that there are some places that will just give you anything. Without tests. Is it wrong? Yes. But that's a problem that has to be worked out with the medical system.

I agree with you that females should see a doctor in order to get the pill. But by no means should it be hard to get. I mean.. I wouldn't go to a back alley to get an abortion. I wouldn't contact someone online to give me an abortion. I would go to a doctor.

I don't think I said it should be hard to get. In fact I think if you read back, I was agreeing with the other poster who had difficulty getting the medication.

What I have been putting out is that all medical practices should be held to the same standards of care for medical reasons, not political, religious, or emotional ones.

Sorry if it read like I was saying that you said it should be hard to get. I just added that as my own opinion, because there really are some people out there who believe that abortions and the abortion pill should be hard to get. While in my opinion, I think that it should be easy to get. But not as easy as having it paid for by taxes, because that's madness.

I agree with you. A person working in the medical field should want to help people. If you are emotional about a procedure because your religion or political party says it's wrong, it's not patients fault, and shouldn't suffer because of it. That's on the person working, and if they want to hold a patient to being accountable for feelings that aren't even their own, maybe the person working in the medical field should re-evaluate and go for a different career.

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

Believe it or not, it's like that in some places. My boyfriends sister hypes up a lot of her health problems, and she's gone into the E.R. and demanded certain medications and will get them just because she's there all the time.

Aren't you supposed to direct the patient to a doctor that specializes in that sort of thing if it's an ongoing problem?

I mean, I have Lupus and if I go to the E.R. they act like I'm a damn drug fiend. And I don't ask for anything, other than something that can get my flare under control. She'll ask for EVERYTHING. BY NAME. And knows when she doesn't get it.

Anyways, bottom line of this mini rant is that there are some places that will just give you anything. Without tests. Is it wrong? Yes. But that's a problem that has to be worked out with the medical system.

I agree with you that females should see a doctor in order to get the pill. But by no means should it be hard to get. I mean.. I wouldn't go to a back alley to get an abortion. I wouldn't contact someone online to give me an abortion. I would go to a doctor.

I don't think I said it should be hard to get. In fact I think if you read back, I was agreeing with the other poster who had difficulty getting the medication.

What I have been putting out is that all medical practices should be held to the same standards of care for medical reasons, not political, religious, or emotional ones.

Sorry if it read like I was saying that you said it should be hard to get. I just added that as my own opinion, because there really are some people out there who believe that abortions and the abortion pill should be hard to get. While in my opinion, I think that it should be easy to get. But not as easy as having it paid for by taxes, because that's madness.

I agree with you. A person working in the medical field should want to help people. If you are emotional about a procedure because your religion or political party says it's wrong, it's not patients fault, and shouldn't suffer because of it. That's on the person working, and if they want to hold a patient to being accountable for feelings that aren't even their own, maybe the person working in the medical field should re-evaluate and go for a different career.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I've worked on enemy soldiers overseas and gang-bangers in the US. Emotionally one might think they "deserved what they got" but as a professional, you have to be able to compartmentalize personal feelings and try to provide the best care you can to everyone who comes under your care.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Lyxdeslic

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: NavyDoc

And no, you are not in charge of your own medical needs. If a surgeon accepts you coming in and saying "I have appendicitis and I need an appendectomy right now," run, don't walk away from him.

You added that.

That's reaching. I'm talking less doctoring and now you're suggesting more.

If you go in and say "I'm pregnant- I demand RU-486 right now" and you are given it without an exam or history or some determination of the pregnancy and you have an ectopic pregnancy, you could end up very dead very quickly.

Believe it or not, it's like that in some places. My boyfriends sister hypes up a lot of her health problems, and she's gone into the E.R. and demanded certain medications and will get them just because she's there all the time.

Aren't you supposed to direct the patient to a doctor that specializes in that sort of thing if it's an ongoing problem?

I mean, I have Lupus and if I go to the E.R. they act like I'm a damn drug fiend. And I don't ask for anything, other than something that can get my flare under control. She'll ask for EVERYTHING. BY NAME. And knows when she doesn't get it.

Anyways, bottom line of this mini rant is that there are some places that will just give you anything. Without tests. Is it wrong? Yes. But that's a problem that has to be worked out with the medical system.

I agree with you that females should see a doctor in order to get the pill. But by no means should it be hard to get. I mean.. I wouldn't go to a back alley to get an abortion. I wouldn't contact someone online to give me an abortion. I would go to a doctor.

I don't think I said it should be hard to get. In fact I think if you read back, I was agreeing with the other poster who had difficulty getting the medication.

What I have been putting out is that all medical practices should be held to the same standards of care for medical reasons, not political, religious, or emotional ones.

Sorry if it read like I was saying that you said it should be hard to get. I just added that as my own opinion, because there really are some people out there who believe that abortions and the abortion pill should be hard to get. While in my opinion, I think that it should be easy to get. But not as easy as having it paid for by taxes, because that's madness.

I agree with you. A person working in the medical field should want to help people. If you are emotional about a procedure because your religion or political party says it's wrong, it's not patients fault, and shouldn't suffer because of it. That's on the person working, and if they want to hold a patient to being accountable for feelings that aren't even their own, maybe the person working in the medical field should re-evaluate and go for a different career.

I don't disagree with anything you've said. I've worked on enemy soldiers overseas and gang-bangers in the US. Emotionally one might think they "deserved what they got" but as a professional, you have to be able to compartmentalize personal feelings and try to provide the best care you can to everyone who comes under your care.

So true. And I think that point of view is what a lot of people are lacking. We've become very emotional and hateful.
It's ugly. As a person in the medical field, you can't just pick and choose who you want to work with. When I first started getting my diagnosis for Lupus I remember seeing doctors who REFUSED to work with me because they didn't want to deal with a child (I was 17 when I started showing symptoms) with Lupus. The only thing they could offer was "Pray it away. God is punishing you." If you say that as a medical professional you are one whacked out individual.

. . . . And some people think Women's Lib, Women fighting for Women is some kind of joke.

It isn't.