Pennsylvania mother who gave daughter abortion pill gets prison

a reply to: windword

"Nursing home aide" is what she was and that isn't a nurse. An aide is more likely to be an orderly or a nursing assistant who works under the supervision of full fledged nurses or doctors. Not the same thing.

So it's not OK to obtain a legal drug but it would have been OK if this kid had lost the baby due to crack or something? That's messed up. If she FORCED the kid, fine but the article said she didn't want the baby.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Fylgje
She should get more time. I don't understand how anyone could kill their baby. If you don't want to get pregnant, then use protection and be careful. Don't play the game if you don't want the grand prize. Only special cases, like deformity or rape, should abortion ever be allowed.

And why is that? What gives you the right to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their body?

The whole line of questioning "I don't understand how anyone could kill their baby" is MASSIVELY flawed. If the woman is a single mother and not financially able to care for the child, a drug addict, or any other number of factors that could cause the child to be severely mistreated, malnourished, or neglected are GREAT reasons to have abortions. But anti-abortion types just look at the fetus, as soon as the baby pops out of the womb, it's not their problem anymore. They've saved a life in their mind only to damn that poor child to growing up in possibly hellish conditions.

If you don't agree with it, fine. But DON'T pretend like you can tell someone else not to do it. If you don't like it for religious reasons, then fine let the person take it up with your god when they get to the afterlife. YOU (and the state) are unnecessary in the decision process when an expectant mother makes the decision to get or not to get an abortion.

And what gives THAT person the right to TELL another that they don't have the right to live???

See how that can get turned around on you???

Jaden

The mother did take a big risk, as taking this pill requires two Dr. visits. I think she should have to do SOMETHING (a fine and community service) for the bad decisions she made, but I don't think prison is the answer AT ALL. Medical Source

Making abortion clinics available and affordable is the answer. The more the GOP and the Christian right clamp down on women's right to obtain a safe abortion, the more we're going to see stories like this - desperate women doing whatever they can to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.

Jaden, an unborn fetus is not a person and does not have a right to life. So, your "turn around" doesn't make any sense.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

A while ago I was discussing this issue with someone who became very upset on my views about abortion, after learning I was a mother of two. All they kept saying was, "How could you feel this way knowing you could have aborted one of your beautiful children?" It just isn't the same and after much thought, that reasoning is flawed also. My children are growing up to be the people they are now, as in present tense. To look at it the same way, comparing a group of developing cells, even the initial stages of fetus development, to a living breathing baby/child or fully developed fetus(one that can live outside the mothers body) is just not valid.
When I eat apples and toss the seeds/core in the garbage I don't say, "Wow, that could have been a beautiful tree someday!" or when I eat caviar, "If only they could have grown up to be bigger fish, feeding many more people." Granted we are dealing with HUMAN life here, but take a good look around the world these days, I almost feel bad bringing the 2 kids I brought into this world given the atrocities that occur on a daily basis.

I am so glad you and the rest are what seem to be the majority on such topics, it does make me feel better knowing this. Hopefully people like us will pave a new way for a better future, then attaching ourselves to religious dogma from past generations.

Also Intrepid brought up a good point.
What if I became pregnant, was 5 weeks in and decided to go to a bar and drink myself stupid until I had a miscarriage. Would the bartender be liable now also, whether he knew it or not?

Having read the article and the postings the following can be stated:

The facts are that a child went out and had sex, as a result she ended up pregnant with a child. The mother, who is a nursing aid, went and got a hold of the abortion pill. Neither the mother or the child want this baby, so the child took the abortion pill. The authorities found out and a trial was done, the mother getting prison time for giving said pill to the child.

The issues here are specific and there are some parts that are not considered. The first is that while it was bad that the mother is getting prison, the bottom line is that she did indeed put her child at risk. Medications can not just be given out by anyone, but by a doctor. This is designed to protect the person/patient from things like complications from any and all reactions to medication. And as sad as it is, the abortion issue is a very hot topic, bound to bring up both sides. The fact is that the woman was wrong for not only violating the law in the state of Penn, but also she did endanger her child. What if the girl had a bad reaction to this medication, what if there were complications? These are the kinds of issues that a doctor would have to be expected to handle and deal with, when doing and prescribing medication to other patients. While it may seem excessive, I can not say what the correct punishment should have been for the mother in this case. Was it done out of malice, I do not think it was. At the same time, while the distance was great, she should have known better and taken her child to see a medical provider and gone through the proper channels.

originally posted by: Masterjaden

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Fylgje
She should get more time. I don't understand how anyone could kill their baby. If you don't want to get pregnant, then use protection and be careful. Don't play the game if you don't want the grand prize. Only special cases, like deformity or rape, should abortion ever be allowed.

And why is that? What gives you the right to tell someone else what they can and can't do with their body?

The whole line of questioning "I don't understand how anyone could kill their baby" is MASSIVELY flawed. If the woman is a single mother and not financially able to care for the child, a drug addict, or any other number of factors that could cause the child to be severely mistreated, malnourished, or neglected are GREAT reasons to have abortions. But anti-abortion types just look at the fetus, as soon as the baby pops out of the womb, it's not their problem anymore. They've saved a life in their mind only to damn that poor child to growing up in possibly hellish conditions.

If you don't agree with it, fine. But DON'T pretend like you can tell someone else not to do it. If you don't like it for religious reasons, then fine let the person take it up with your god when they get to the afterlife. YOU (and the state) are unnecessary in the decision process when an expectant mother makes the decision to get or not to get an abortion.

And what gives THAT person the right to TELL another that they don't have the right to live???

See how that can get turned around on you???

Jaden

No I don't see how that can be turned around. A clump of cells in a mother's body doesn't have any rights. Even after birth, children don't have the full rights of adults so your argument isn't sound at all.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

No, not necessarily in a store but they are available via abortion and some medical clinics in most cities. One of the big issues with what this mother did was that this particular drug actually requires a follow up drug to induce contractions to make sure that everything is clear. Without that second drug, it ups the chance of failed termination and/or infection. So really very risky move on the mom's part. It's good that she took her daughter into the ER though the moment things didn't seem to be going ok.

The risks the mother took playing doctor here is what has me on the fence as to whether or not she should be facing jail time. There's nothing in the article noting whether she researched what all needed to be done to make it safe for her daughter including ordering that second drug. Incredibly risky.

I'm probably going to catch some flak here but I'd say that, considering the risks that she exposed her daughter to, giving the mother some jail time is necessary to deter this from repeating because RU-486 is, like you said, not the day after pill.

And that's the thing. It seems the issue is not some anti-abortion crusade but an untrained and unqualified person illegally getting a potentially dangerous drug and administering it without follow up, physical exam, history, etc--everything that a good healthcare professional does.

The daughter could have had some very serious complications.

a reply to: AnteBellum

This is not a crime. Acquit and set free a good mom.

originally posted by: th3dudeabides
a reply to: AnteBellum

This is not a crime. Acquit and set free a good mom.

See the post above yours. Doc makes a damn good point. This isn't a Tylenol here. She doesn't know the effects that this could do to her child. Bad precedent to set to allow parents to medicate with anything that is prescription.

originally posted by: intrepid
So it's not OK to obtain a legal drug but it would have been OK if this kid had lost the baby due to crack or something? That's messed up. If she FORCED the kid, fine but the article said she didn't want the baby.

Interesting enough, mothers have been prosecuted for child abuse for using meth and crack while pregnant. OTOH, why not apply the same rule for using tobacco while pregnant, after all, smoking during pregnancy does have adverse health effects.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
...why not apply the same rule for using tobacco while pregnant, after all, smoking during pregnancy does have adverse health effects.

Do you have kids? I have 3. I'm just saying, after 5 months let them have their smokes and Hagan Daas. There's OTHER health issues involved.

originally posted by: intrepid

originally posted by: NavyDoc
...why not apply the same rule for using tobacco while pregnant, after all, smoking during pregnancy does have adverse health effects.

Do you have kids? I have 3. I'm just saying, after 5 months let them have their smokes and Hagan Daas. There's OTHER health issues involved.

LOL. I hear you. Sometimes a wise man picks his battles where progesterone is concerned.

Maybe a little less jail time would be fair.
I feel like the bottom line here, is that they circumvented and broke state law.
They should have drove that 70-something miles to the real clinic.
It seems to me that the 16-year old and the mother did not take the situation as serious as it is.
The whole situation shines a light how irresponsible some people can be, just to make things a little bit easier.
When it comes to the predicament these two were in, they REALLY needed to be more responsible and "take care" of the baby the proper way. (If there is one (different conversation ) )

a reply to: o0oTOPCATo0o

If you want to go all conspiracy theory there's another side. Buying drugs online from other countries. This one came from Europe. Big Pharm doesn't like competition. In fact it pays billions every year to NOT have competition.

Why is women's right to her production choices still an issue?

Oh wait, I know ------- Right Wing Christians.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
The issues here are specific and there are some parts that are not considered. The first is that while it was bad that the mother is getting prison, the bottom line is that she did indeed put her child at risk.

But she wasn't prosecuted for obtaining the pill, giving it to her daughter, or putting her daughter at risk. She was prosecuted because Pennsylvania state law states that all abortions must be performed by a doctor. Pennsylvania leads the country in abortion restriction laws. The Christian Right is making it so women have VERY FEW options by closing abortion clinics, requiring counseling, visiting a physician. And then when a mother takes control of her child's health, they throw her in jail. This is the way the Christian Right is "punishing" women who decide to have an abortion.

Whalen was sentenced on Friday by Montour County Court of Common Pleas Judge Gary Norton to serve 12 months to 18 months in prison for violating a state law that requires abortions to be performed by physicians.

Source

As it stands today, Pennsylvania has a long-list of restrictions on abortion:

A woman must receive state-directed counseling that includes information designed to discourage her from having an abortion and then wait 24 hours before the procedure.
The parent of a minor must consent before an abortion is provided.
State health plans under the Affordable Care Act can only cover abortions when the woman's life is endangered, rape or incest, unless an optional rider is purchased at an additional cost.
Abortion is covered in insurance policies for public employees only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.
Public funding is available for abortion only in cases of life endangerment, rape or incest.

The table below lists the basic provisions of Pennsylvania's abortion laws.
- See more at: statelaws.findlaw.com...

At the same time, while the distance was great, she should have known better and taken her child to see a medical provider and gone through the proper channels.

Being a single mother, if she's poor, it may have been very difficult for her to afford the abortion (since insurance won't cover it), take the time off work, and pay for gasoline to go 150 miles. I agree that the best case would be to use the proper channels, but those channels could be a LOT easier to access if the religious right would mind their own business and stop trying to force their beliefs on everyone.

Twenty-five years ago, the mom could have given consent and the girl could have gone to the local abortion clinic and paid $25 for a safe, legal abortion. But those avenues are being systematically closed by the "righteous".

If you can't tell, it pisses me off.

a reply to: Annee

Why? Really. Just why? Read the source. There WERE laws broken and a juvenile's life put at risk. Can we give Roe vs Wade a rest for once?

originally posted by: intrepid
Can we give Roe vs Wade a rest for once?

Not for a minute.

originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic

originally posted by: intrepid
Can we give Roe vs Wade a rest for once?

Not for a minute.

Even at the expense of reasonable medical practices? Is abortion that sacred to you that you would put medical reason, like not having a layperson buy dangerous medication over the internet and then give it to their minor child, a pass?

There is illogical fanaticism on both sides of this issue.