Flight MH17 Downed By 'High-Energy Objects

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: AntiDude

You mean this post of his -

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: AntiDude

I didn't say it was, did I. You're good at putting words in a persons mouth aren't you.

The missile fragments did. There was a video released years ago of square bits of metal at high velocity leaving round holes in what they hit.

What part confused you?

Lol, the part where he offered no evidence whatsoever.

Here this is what I mean.....how dare I doubt his words. I mean he said it so it must be true. He doesn't even have to post that vid.

Oh oh.

You should also rethink your "taking the post out of context" remark.

Uhm no, I don't think I should.

The shock wave from the blast does someting to the air resistance that will make all the Frags travel With high speed.

Howe far Depends on distance from war head blast compared to target. All Frags are part of the outher Shell of the warhead and are Equal in shape and size. That means they all travel at about the same speed. There are no Frags that come trailing in behind the others.

The Frags travel like a spherical wall towards its target. if one of them that hits the skin leave a round hole, all the Frags that hit should because they practically hit the skin With the same speed/force.

a reply to: spy66

Only if all the pieces hit at the same angle. Some will hit at angles that leave more of a tear than a hole.

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: spy66

Only if all the pieces hit at the same angle. Some will hit at angles that leave more of a tear than a hole.

That is true. Than the question becomes; How far away from the MH 17 flight parth did the warhead detonate?

If the warhead had a flight path that was heading towards MH17. I would assume the blast would be very Close to MH17. Do to the size of MH17. The sensors that predict the missiles target also determne when the perimiter fuse should activate the warhead. If the target is large the sensors will activate the warhead a lot closer to the target. To give the target more damage probability.

Then we have to take in acount the speed of the missile, the speed of MH17 and detonation distance to MH17.

originally posted by: spy66 The sensors that predict the missiles target also determne when the perimiter fuse should activate the warhead. If the target is large the sensors will activate the warhead a lot closer to the target.

First, based on your description, I'm not sure that you understand how a "proximity-fuse" works.

Second, the if you can visualize this, the range of angles intercepting the target from a given blast point will be greatest the nearer the target, not the farther.

originally posted by: spy66
The shock wave from the blast does someting to the air resistance that will make all the Frags travel With high speed.

???

All Frags are part of the outher Shell of the warhead and are Equal in shape and size.

This is not necessarily true of the pre-fabbed fragments in the combined effect warhead even if they are machined to the same size and shape. It is with certainty not true of the wide variety of missile components and pieces of components which become projectiles of their own.

That means they all travel at about the same speed. There are no Frags that come trailing in behind the others.

Not true again, because of the variety of masses involved in the cloud of objects pushed outward by the HE component of the warhead.

The Frags travel like a spherical wall towards its target. if one of them that hits the skin leave a round hole, all the Frags that hit should because they practically hit the skin With the same speed/force.

Again, not true, because of the variety in mass, velocity, size, the angle of deflection/incidence of the projectile with target surface, etc.

a reply to: _Del_

What not tell us exactly how the BUK warhead Works so that we can Clear this up?

You seam to be the expert.

The wide variety of shapes and sizes in images like the following, along with the large amount of scoring and scratching across the surface argue conclusively against the GSH-2-30 theory:


There are also photos showing clearly square impacts:
Square

So we're down to missiles. Since the Su-25 isn't designed to perform aerial intercepts, and the largest of the air-to-air missiles it carries do not have warheads capable of inflicting the large scale of damage evident here causing the airframe to instantaneously break apart, and there are examples of airliners and business jets being hit with these sorts of missiles and surviving to land, I'm led to believe that we are left with SAMs as perpetrators. It would have been far better to continue to blame the Ukrainians for a SAM launch and denied the rebels launched the SAM. Recent attempts in the Russian media to introduce a MiG-29 to the potential list of subjects is at least more plausible than the Su-25 story, but it seems a little late to the party and there is no evidence to support it. The latest story I've read is that a Su-25 or MiG-29 attacked with cannons, circled back around and launched missiles. No explanations on why no mayday was issued by the flight crew or how the theory conflicts with the FDR data showing sudden and catastrophic failure with no evidence of any maneuvering before hand. I guess standard practice is to ignore cannon fire quietly and push on with your flight path. Even the Defense Minister's latest comments have fallen back to "If the Ukraine wasn't involved in domestic fighting, this wouldn't have happened. It was their airspace and should be responsible for it".

We had two MH aircraft downed, one flying from and one flying to Kuala Lumpur.
There were 193 passengers from the Netherlands aboard MH17.
There were only 4 German passengers on that flight but Germany has publicly involved itself in the investigation.

The story line claims Flight MH1 7 Downed By 'High-Energy Objects.
Need to think outside the box here, some of you military experts may have signed non disclosure agreements.
Could this be some classified weapons system for which Germany might have a stake in disclosing?

a reply to: _Del_

This is not what i asked for. I asked you to present a to us how a BUK missile warhead Works exactly.

And exactly what shape the holes would have on a soft skin do to the function of said warhead.

You called me a lier. So i guss you know better. Now show it.

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: _Del_

This is not what i asked for.

Nothing in that post indicates it was a reply to you. Notice most visibly the lack of a reply tag. The post stands alone.

I asked you to present a to us how a BUK missile warhead Works exactly.

Could you be more specific?

And exactly what shape the holes would have on a soft skin do to the function of said warhead.

Could you reword the question to make more sense?

You called me a lier. So i guss you know better. Now show it.

I did not call you a liar, tovarisch. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and said you were in error.

a reply to: _Del_

Then i Guess this is not directly to me either then because you have answered exactly the same way?

originally posted by: spy66
a reply to: _Del_

Then i Guess this is not directly to me either then because you have answered exactly the same way?

I thought you might have noticed the quotes which indicated it was in response to your statements. Is there a point to all this snipping at me?

originally posted by: spy66The Frags travel like a spherical wall towards its target. if one of them that hits the skin leave a round hole, all the Frags that hit should because they practically hit the skin With the same speed/force.

no - AA missile pre-fragmentation is usually into squares - each of which will receive a different thrust from the explosion of the warhead, then react differently with the surrounding air - this will produce a multitude of different impact shapes as the fragments hit with different alignments and velocities.

Also the underlying structure at the impact point will affect the shape of the hole - whether the point of impact of the fragment has a stringer or frame behind it making it stronger or not for example.

originally posted by: Cauliflower
Need to think outside the box here, some of you military experts may have signed non disclosure agreements.
Could this be some classified weapons system for which Germany might have a stake in disclosing?

no.

2nd.

a reply to: Cauliflower

When a civilian commercial airliner goes down the following can be involved -

The nation where the flight originated from.
The nation where the flight was destined.
The nation the flight went down in.
The country where the aircraft was manufactured.
The country where the airline is established.
Any nation who lost nationals on the flight.

The country where the flight went down has primary jurisdiction and can conduct there investigation per their laws, including allowing other nations to conduct the investigation.

Ukraine is the country with primary jurisdiction and requested the Netherlands, who lost the most nationals, run the investigation into cause of death.

If Germany lost nationals, they have a right to be involved.

a reply to: Xcathdra

To add to it you seem to ignore the fact rebel on the ground tampered with the debris. Could the "round" holes be caused by rebel machine gun fire on the ground?

I think it would be more effective if they had just removed the piece with the holes from the site instead of shooting extra holes in it, if their intention was to cover up a BUK hit that the piece of fuselage is supposedly showing.

a reply to: Zaphod58

There was a video released years ago of square bits of metal at high velocity leaving round holes in what they hit.

Ok pretty random.....

Are you going to post it?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Could the "round" holes be caused by rebel machine gun fire on the ground?

So you agree that they could not be caused by a BUK?

You must agree otherwise you wouldn't be entertaining the thought that something else caused it.