The fifth seal was closed with the Reformation

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The main problem with this take is that it doesn't account for the fact that each symbol has the same 7th ending: 'And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail.' all of which are the results of the extreme volcanic action shaking and changing the Earth, on the Day that God vents His Wrath!

After the seals, fire is thrown don on earth from the air, which is the dawn of aviation and bomber airplanes.

After the Tumpets the Temple opens in heaven, so maybe heavy firework?

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

We know the location of all the Turkish places mentioned in the letters. Besides, the letters are written to the seven angels who are "seven wandering stars" or the sun and the moon and the five visible planets. Jesus is instructing astrology here.

This is why I believe the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls run concurrently and are in the future:


7th SEAL Revelation 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

7th TRUMPET Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

7th BOWL Revelation 16:18 And there came to be noises and thunders and lightnings. And there came to be a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not came to be since men were on the earth.

This last verse continues: Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His Wrath.
Verse 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Verse 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Extreme volcanic activity, with all it entails, could also explain such phenomena as described during the Day of His Wrath, in Revelation 6:12-17, such as the moon turning red, the sun black, and the waters becoming bitter, etc.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

We know the location of all the Turkish places mentioned in the letters. Besides, the letters are written to the seven angels who are "seven wandering stars" or the sun and the moon and the five visible planets. Jesus is instructing astrology here.

I'd like to suggest an alternative viewpoint.

These promises to the seven churches [which is as a seven-branched Menorah where the lights shine all together] are to those who 'overcome' [the world /this physical reality, where all is vanity] and it sure don't sound anything like astrology to me:

Rev 2:1-7 - the Loveless church at Ephesus :- the promise to 'him who overcomes' is that the Messiah will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rev 2:8-11 - the Persecuted church at Smyrna :- 'he who overcomes' will not be hurt by the second death.' Compare Rev 20:6.

Rev 2:12-17 - the Compromising church at Pergamos :- To 'him who overcomes' the Messiah will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And a white stone with his new name written on it, that no one knows but him.

Rev 2:18-29 - the Corrupt church in Thyatira :- To 'he who overcomes' and keeps the Messiah's works to the end, the Messiah will give power over the nations, and the morning star.

Rev 3:1-6 - the Dead church of Sardis :- 'He who overcomes' shall be clothed in white garments, and will not have his name blotted out of the Book of Life, but will have his name confessed by the Messiah before God the Father and his angels. (Compare Rev 7:14 and Luke 12:8-12).

Rev 3:7-13 - the Faithful church in Philadelphia :- 'He who overcomes' the Messiah will make a pillar in the Temple of his God, and he will write on him the name of God, the name of the New Jerusalem, and the new name of The Messiah.

(Thus God is then going to make all things new! See Revelation 21:5 "Then He who sat on the Throne said, "Behold, I make all things new.......")

Rev 3:14-22 - The Lukewarm church at Laodicea :- To 'him who overcomes', the Messiah will grant to him to sit with him on his throne, just as he also overcame and sat down with his Father on His throne.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

The 7 Seals of Revelation are a summary of the 70th Week, which has yet to occur. With exception to the 6th Seal, the are not tied to a specific point in time, but rather express the theme of the historical trends during the 70th Week. Dont use history to interpret prophecy, but use the Bible itself.

Seals 1-4 are the Four Horsemen. They are angels that regulate disasters on earth. You can find them in Zech Chapter 6 (the LXX gives a more accurate description). During the 70th Week, they will regulate the shifts in power balance, wars, famines, and mass deaths.

Seal 5 are the martyrs killed during the 70th Week. They are waiting for Christ to return to earth to dispense justice. As Disraeli mentioned, they probably include the past martyrs of Israel too.

Seal 6 is the description of Jesus' return to earth. As described in Matt 24, it involves the sun becoming black causing the moon to turn blood red, the entire earth quakes causing the stars to roll back like a scroll (axial shift). The rest of that event is described by Zephaniah, Isaiah, Zechariah, and Joel. At some point, ALL light will be temporarily extinguished as judgement is poured out on the wicked.

Seal 7 the introduces the trumpets. This is where the 70th Week begins in detail, starting with Trumpet 1.

So the 7 Seals are show the macro view of the 70th Week, while the Trumpets and Vials go into enough detail to establish a detailed timeline.

The 7 Letters to the Churches of Asia are merely instructions on how to live a spiritual life during the Church Age. They are still applicable today, but they do not divide the Church Age into sub-sections.

All of the events concerning the 70th Week will not take place until the Church Age expires, and is therefore removed from the face of the earth. That is depicted in Rev 4:1. The author uses the greek term 'meta tauta' to separate the 7 Letters (Church Age) from the 'trupet call' in verse 1, then 'meta tauta' again to separate the 'trumpet call' from the 7 Seals (70th Week) and following.

Observe:

Rev 4:1 After this (meta tauta) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter (meta tauta).

Again, the Book of Revelation was designed to tie the OT and NT together as a closed unit. The mysteries therein are revealed throughout the scriptures. Think of it as an open book test.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Who said anything about praying souls on the altar?

I said under the altar, which is wording of the text in Revelation.
Their plea to God (for the completion of the vengeance) is given in full in Revelation.
My practice is to look a the text and read what it says.

originally posted by: sacgamer25
a reply to: Maigret

Here is a something for you to think about with the seven churches.

Jesus is depicted as holding the seven lamp stands.

He holds the seven stars, he walks between the seven lamp stands. The seven stars of the seven congregations are:

First star is the Moon with it's patient endurance, Ephesus was a centre of Artemis (Diana) worship, and her temple in Ephesus, Artemision, was one of the world's seven wonders.

Second church is Smyrna, and the star/angel is the Sun, which "dies and comes back to life" when there is an eclipse.

Next star (Pergamon) is Jupiter*, since Pergamon's main altar was the "Throne of Zeus" which was dismantled and moved to Berlin 150 years ago (to boost the Beast, the devil gave it his power and throne). In Latin Zeus becomes Jupiter. The devil is then revealed as Satan, and Germany is revealed as the Beast.

Next Thyatira, the morningstar, is Venus*.

Sardis is Mercury*, faint and softhearted.

Philadelphia means "brotherly love" and is a reference to the brotherly relation between Saturn* and Jupiter* and their "greatest" conjuctions, which were important in Judaism and which was the Bethlehem Star.

Laodichea then, must be Mars*, and let's see what is written about it: God suggests he'd get some white cloathes, to hide his (red) nakedness.

* The planets visible to the naked eye carrying those names, not the Roman gods.

a reply to: ketsuko

Yes - but other prophecies have to be fulfilled first before the Day of Wrath, ketsuko, such as the rebuilding of the Temple, the rise of the Antichrist and the period of the Tribulation (three and a half years), and these events are primed and ready to fall into place.

a reply to: sacgamer25

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, but respectfully I must admit that I cannot follow your line of reasoning, sacgamer25. How do the seven lampstands get to be other belief systems?

I agree that the various Biblical texts are often misinterpreted, and also misunderstood! This is where the Holy Spirit provides clarification, which is also why the Biblical prophecies can't be understood without the Holy Spirit of God.

Where else are the seven lampstands spoken of in the Bible, mentioned by any of those other 'prophets' you mention, the Vedas, Zoaster, Buddah, etc.?

And how does the 7-branched menorah get to be anything other than belonging to Israel?

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Who said anything about praying souls on the altar?

I said under the altar, which is wording of the text in Revelation.
Their plea to God (for the completion of the vengeance) is given in full in Revelation.
My practice is to look a the text and read what it says.

The souls of the marthyrs/saints are under the altar (Rev 6:9), a reference to "the well of souls" found by the cornerstone on Mt. Moriah or Mt. Sion. Their prayers are upon the altar (Rev. 8:3)