The fifth seal was closed with the Reformation

The number of the souls of heretic saints in the well of souls by the altar in Revelation had been multiplying for centuries and ages, and by the time the fifth seal was broken by the Lamb of God in (future) Heaven, these souls plead to the Lord: “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”:

Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

With the advent of the Reformation and the Protestant Church, many of the Catholic dogmas and doctrines were abolished and the Protestant clergy didn't bother much to judge the heretics of the past, killed among the witches and during inquisition, wars and crusades. So with Protestantism these killed saints were given a clean slate in a way. Or a white robe. But the witch hunts didn't stop, some might say the Protestant Church was even worse than the Catholic Church, killing left and right, cross in hand. And the secular witch trials were just as bad.

Also. Parallel to the Reformation, Humanism developed in the shadows. And they certainly didn't agree with either part on their views on religious and scientific heresy. Religious freedom, and freedom to express ones ideas were and are core ideals in Humanism. So if Luther didn't give the saints the clean slates, Humanism certainly did.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

My take is different. All the people being murdered in the endless wars being waged right now are the ones crying out from the grave for justice.

Not yet, not yet… the time is not yet.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
The number of the souls of heretic saints in the well of souls by the altar in Revelation had been multiplying for centuries and ages, and by the time the fifth seal was broken by the Lamb of God in (future) Heaven, these souls plead to the Lord: “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No."

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a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophecy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

When you say Humanism do you mean the religious kind or do you mean secular humanism?

a reply to: Heruactic

Comparing sex to murder > Someone needs to get laid.

originally posted by: Aural
When you say Humanism do you mean the religious kind or do you mean secular humanism?

a reply to: Heruactic

Comparing sex to murder > Someone needs to get laid.

The way I see it, Humanism is a kind of secular religion. Call it the religion of science? I know it sounds funny.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

I believe we are at the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet, and the vials may already be poring out.

I believe the physical plagues that many are waiting for with the vials is spiritual only, and they are already being pored out.

I am interested in where you are going with this and will wait to add anything of value until you have finished.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Then its Secular Humanism. I had heard of some people talk of Christian based Humanism before so it gets confusing when someone just says humanism sometimes but maybe that group doesnt really exist as i cant find info on it.

originally posted by: Heruactic


The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the whores and politicians will look up and shout "Save us!"... and I'll look down and whisper "No."

Just the whores and politicians? Welcome to ATS...you'll fit right in !

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The main problem with this take is that it doesn't account for the fact that each symbol has the same 7th ending: 'And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail.' all of which are the results of the extreme volcanic action shaking and changing the Earth, on the Day that God vents His Wrath!

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

originally posted by: sacgamer25

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

I believe we are at the seventh seal and the seventh trumpet, and the vials may already be poring out.

I believe the physical plagues that many are waiting for with the vials is spiritual only, and they are already being pored out.

A valid approach I suppose. I used to think along parallelity for lack of better word, but over the years I have come to this here approach, I call it 'chronological synchronicity'.

I am interested in where you are going with this and will wait to add anything of value until you have finished.

My intent is to share my research and show how I understand the Apocalypse. No hidden catch, no sect or org. Just years of research into this matter and a wish see if there are others who'd agree and look into it. I wish to offer an analytical historical approach and get a "decaffed peer review light" on this here at ATS, nothing else.

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

Can you explain this sentence?

originally posted by: Aural
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Then its Secular Humanism. I had heard of some people talk of Christian based Humanism before so it gets confusing when someone just says humanism sometimes but maybe that group doesnt really exist as i cant find info on it.

Yes, there is no personal god involved, but humanism is concerned with morals and ethics, philosophy and science in general. It fuelled the Renaissance and crowned the modern philosopher. I don't belong to any church or anything else, I don't have an agenda of any sort.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The souls under the altar are not being martyred (this is a common misunderstanding).
They have been martyred, and they are now on the sidelines cheering on what's happening.
In fact they died before the Four Horsemen began, and the whole point of the Four Horsemen is to be God's vengeance for their deaths.
That's why their reaction is "Give us more of this!", and they are disappointed to be told that the vengeance is to be interrupted (which happens in ch7 v1) and resumed only when they have been joined by the second and final batch of martyrs.

The fifth and sixth seals are both about reactions to the Four Horsemen.
The fifth is the reaction of the dead martyrs, the sixth is the panic-stricken reaction of the world at large.

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The main problem with this take is that it doesn't account for the fact that each symbol has the same 7th ending: 'And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake and great hail.' all of which are the results of the extreme volcanic action shaking and changing the Earth, on the Day that God vents His Wrath!

After the seals, fire is thrown don on earth from the air, which is the dawn of aviation and bomber airplanes.

After the Tumpets the Temple opens in heaven, so maybe heavy firework?

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

We know the location of all the Turkish places mentioned in the letters. Besides, the letters are written to the seven angels who are "seven wandering stars" or the sun and the moon and the five visible planets. Jesus is instructing astrology here.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Utnapisjtim
The souls under the altar are not being martyred (this is a common misunderstanding). They have been martyred

Who said anything about praying souls on the altar? They are the souls of the saints who had been killed as heretics by the Church on earth.

originally posted by: Bilk22

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

Can you explain this sentence?

I'll try.

Matthew 24 gives a good outline of what will happen in the latter days at the time of the Tribulation and in Verse 16 the Son says to those in Judah, in the South of Israel, to 'flee immediately - stopping for nothing! - to the mountains and in Matthew 10:23 on the same subject, he says that 'you will not have gone through the cities of Israel' - e.g. to the North - before his return - so this shows the general direction of flight is North towards Turkey.

The seven letters at the beginning of Revelation are to seven Churches in Asia and the towns named for them are all in Turkey. Obviously, the promises made are common to all, and from them it is clear that these churches will exist at a time in the latter days, when these letters will be clearly understood in their explicitness!

In (Mark 13:20) it says “And if the Lord “And if the Lord had not shortened those days, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen ones, whom He chose, He shortened the days.” which indicates that some flesh is destined to survive the Tribulation, and therefore obviously also the Day of His Wrath….

In the Day of Wrath, the whole earth will be shaken by such violent volcanoes causing Teutonic plate shifts, resulting in rain/hail of molten pumice, lightning, thunderings/noises, earthquakes altering the geographical landscape, etc. that no flesh could survive.

Where specifically in Turkey, Asia could the remnant flesh / people of the seven churches survive this onslaught? This question puzzled me for a long time, until I heard about the underground caverns at Cappadocia in Turkey, which if properly provisioned, could house thousands of people and animals, and be closed off to the rest of the world by huge doors/rocks that can be closed by a single person from within.

Interestingly, soon afterwards as if in confirmation, I saw this verse at another post here on ATC:
Isaiah 26: 20
'Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by'.

originally posted by: Bilk22

originally posted by: Maigret

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
a reply to: intrptr

I see it this way:

Seven Letters Church formation, prophesy of the Conquerer (first few centuries AD)
Seven seals Showing Church descent into secularity and cruelty (300-1900 AD)
Seven trumpets Worldwide wars and catastrophes of the 20th and 21st centuries AD, Church is destroyed a first time
Seven vials God's judgement, the Church is destroyed a second time

ETA: At the current moment we are either in the middle of or awaiting the sixth trumpet. I'll get back to that later.

The letters are separate and are specially to those still alive of each of the 7 Churches that are safely hidden* and survive this Day!

* Possibly in the massive underground caverns in Cappadocia, Turkey?

Can you explain this sentence?

Sorry, I explained why I believe where and why these seven churches will be/survive... but maybe your question is regarding the relevancy of the letters and promises to the seven churches?

a reply to: Maigret

The eruption taking place in Iceland right now has the potential to grow into something that could fulfill those requirements.

The Laki eruptions caused great hailstones in Europe that destroyed many crops and killed off livestock back in the late 1700s, and what is taking place now is building into something that could be unprecedented.

Of course, it could also subside with a whimper, too.

a reply to: Maigret

Here is a something for you to think about with the seven churches.

Jesus is depicted as holding the seven lamp stands.

If you see Jesus as the culmination of one religion with three texts, the OT, NT, and Koran, then the 7 churches are seven different prophets not mentioned in the Abrahmic texts.

Prophets -
Egyptian Theology
The Vedas
Zoaster
Buddah
Plato
Siekh
Native American.

The only religion that I have yet to research is the ancient Egypt religion. But from the little I have have researched I believes that Egyptian Theology contains teaching on the Holy Spirt.

I believe all the texts have been misinterpreted. I think men in power could not understand the Holy Spirit, they began worshipping the metaphors and rituals, and lost sight of what thier prophet was teaching.

Mathew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

I believe the elect/enlightened are the ones who found the light within, regardless of the prophet they followed. Jesus claimed to be the light, it was the first name given him in Genesis. So when it is said all are saved by none other, all the prophets agree.

Salvation only comes when one realizes the devine light, Holy Spirit, within.

Evidence is found in Ghandi, an enlightened man who could not see past Hinduism to realize that all the prophets say the same thing. Enlightenment is available without full understanding. The truth is always found within, not in scripture.

Scripture is a door, but you have to walk the path.