Florida cops kill bystander, but charge suspect they were trying to shoot with her murder

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read the article, and looked at the postings the following can be stated:

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Total and unadulterated equine feces!

I have seen video after video of professional marksmen in real-life, "condition red" scenarios and situations, where they are fully in command of their weapon! It's only the poorly or untrained, average shooter, that will let bullets "fly freely"...
Heck! Even in basic defensive shooting classes, you are taught that what lies beyond your target is as important to assess before pulling the trigger, as your target and your own position are.

your one spewing bovine facial matter.
i bet in not one of those videos have you seen them hit the target every shot, especially if being shot at or taking cover. you can have control of your weapon and still miss your shot trained people do it all the time.

a reply to: GoOfYFoOt
It is not panic, but simple human response. The human body when pumped on adrenaline, does not remain still, it tends to shake slightly and move, shifting. And contrary to popular belief, once you pull the trigger the first time, one has to re-aim, can not while standing, sit there and fire and hit the same spot over and over again. Having actually fired both hand guns and heavier weapons, I can tell you that it does not work that way. And if you are having to move, and aim at a live target that is moving, the first shot will hit, the second and third are more likely to go astray. So no it is not panic or emotions.

But then again, who would you want to handle a weapon, someone who is emotionless or someone who is going to actually consider the life that they take? Personally I rather have the person who has emotions handling that weapon.

Even the experts all say the same thing, and if you look back in history, the facts back this up, in a gun fight, the second and third bullets have a greater chance of missing the target.

a reply to: alienjuggalo
Let me ask you this and be truthful. If a person has a gun, are you going to put your life on the line that it may not be loaded? Would you?

Basic gun safety is that if you see a gun, be under the belief that it is loaded with a bullet in the chamber.

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read the article, and looked at the postings the following can be stated:

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Total and unadulterated equine feces!

I have seen video after video of professional marksmen in real-life, "condition red" scenarios and situations, where they are fully in command of their weapon! It's only the poorly or untrained, average shooter, that will let bullets "fly freely"...
Heck! Even in basic defensive shooting classes, you are taught that what lies beyond your target is as important to assess before pulling the trigger, as your target and your own position are.

your one spewing bovine facial matter.
i bet in not one of those videos have you seen them hit the target every shot, especially if being shot at or taking cover. you can have control of your weapon and still miss your shot trained people do it all the time.

They wasn't being shot at or taking cover. They clearly state in the op that he was reaching for his waist ban with his right hand, if I was reaching for my wallet I would be preforming the same action of the suspect.

Is this enough reason to open fire?

originally posted by: alienjuggalo
a reply to: sdcigarpig

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Well this was not a gunfight since the guys gun was not loaded.

Obviously he did not fire a shot.

And how exactly are the cops supposed to know this?

Excuse me sir...that gun that you have is there any bullets in it? Oh very well...carry on then.

Again another example of how an idiot is the root cause here and I agree he should be charged. His actions is what brought all of this on in the first place.

originally posted by: LDragonFire

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read the article, and looked at the postings the following can be stated:

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Total and unadulterated equine feces!

I have seen video after video of professional marksmen in real-life, "condition red" scenarios and situations, where they are fully in command of their weapon! It's only the poorly or untrained, average shooter, that will let bullets "fly freely"...
Heck! Even in basic defensive shooting classes, you are taught that what lies beyond your target is as important to assess before pulling the trigger, as your target and your own position are.

your one spewing bovine facial matter.
i bet in not one of those videos have you seen them hit the target every shot, especially if being shot at or taking cover. you can have control of your weapon and still miss your shot trained people do it all the time.

They wasn't being shot at or taking cover. They clearly state in the op that he was reaching for his waist ban with his right hand, if I was reaching for my wallet I would be preforming the same action of the suspect.

Is this enough reason to open fire?

SMH...you are missing the point...Why would you be reaching for your wallet in this situation.

originally posted by: LDragonFire

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read the article, and looked at the postings the following can be stated:

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Total and unadulterated equine feces!

I have seen video after video of professional marksmen in real-life, "condition red" scenarios and situations, where they are fully in command of their weapon! It's only the poorly or untrained, average shooter, that will let bullets "fly freely"...
Heck! Even in basic defensive shooting classes, you are taught that what lies beyond your target is as important to assess before pulling the trigger, as your target and your own position are.

your one spewing bovine facial matter.
i bet in not one of those videos have you seen them hit the target every shot, especially if being shot at or taking cover. you can have control of your weapon and still miss your shot trained people do it all the time.

They wasn't being shot at or taking cover. They clearly state in the op that he was reaching for his waist ban with his right hand, if I was reaching for my wallet I would be preforming the same action of the suspect.

Is this enough reason to open fire?

you have no way of knowing if there was any other movement on their part or his. it also says that he was moving towards the door when he reached for his waist.

They found Roach at the bar's locked door, the affidavit states. He reportedly walked to the street "pointing his right hand at the officers," and ignored commands to get on the ground, instead backing up toward the bar again. Angel fired his Taser, which was thwarted by Roach's loose clothes, the affidavit says. After trying the door again, Roach went for his waistband with his right hand, the affidavit says:
As he fell, Roach dropped a .40 caliber Ruger handgun from his right hand, the affidavit states.

plus we don't know if the first five hit him the second five or what five out of the nine. if they missed he very well could of been moving they could have been moving, these things are not a static deal, their fluid and all kind of movement could have happened.

a reply to: HawkeyeNation

I'm conditioned to reach for my wallet to show ID when confronted by the police, aren't you?

The point your not seeing is at this time, no weapon had been seen or displayed, and the police were shooting anyway.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

I whole-heartedly disagree.

In multiple real life "shoot-outs" filmed by dash cams and the like, the first bullet ( and sometimes even the second one) usually strikes the ground in front of the target, as the officer is bringing his firearm up to eye level. There is even footage of the first round being fired before the pistol even leaves the holster! That is PANIC! Pure and simple.

Now, the question is, did the officer in the OP already have his weapon drawn and trained on the suspect? Or at least, at the ready (pulled into his chest with the muzzle down) ?

If he did, then the scenario should have already been assessed and he should have been constantly re-assessing as parameters changed.

Yes. Fluidity does occur in these situations, but training dictates that once you have made the decision to fire at the suspect, one must follow protocol. Identify your target. Assess the situation. Subdue the threat. Re-assess!

If the officer was running for cover while firing in the general direction of the threat, (which is what it sounds like from the article) then he failed in his duties and abandoned his training, IMHO.

originally posted by: LDragonFire
a reply to: HawkeyeNation

I'm conditioned to reach for my wallet to show ID when confronted by the police, aren't you?

The point your not seeing is at this time, no weapon had been seen or displayed, and the police were shooting anyway.

No I am not...I am conditioned to listen then action. If I get pulled over in my car I am not reaching for insurance cards, wallet or registration. I am sitting with both hands a top of my steering wheel where he can see them clearly then on his command I do what he asks.

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: sdcigarpig
...the first bullet ( and sometimes even the second one) usually strikes the ground in front of the target, as the officer is bringing his firearm up to eye level. There is even footage of the first round being fired before the pistol even leaves the holster! That is PANIC! Pure and simple.

I can understand some panic/adrenaline pumping but why the hell is a "trained" officer shooting without even having a target in sight, sometimes by your own admission before he even gets the gun out of his holster? I mean one of the first things you learn in training is to identify your target and the beyond right? But cops get a green light because why?

originally posted by: hounddoghowlie

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Having read the article, and looked at the postings the following can be stated:

If you have ever been in a gun fight, the first thing that you will realize, along with the experts, there is no way to aim carefully. Bullets will fly freely. The body moves and reacts, the muscles tense and relax. The idea of a person firing a weapon and hitting just one person in such an occasion is only the fiction of Hollywood.

Total and unadulterated equine feces!

I have seen video after video of professional marksmen in real-life, "condition red" scenarios and situations, where they are fully in command of their weapon! It's only the poorly or untrained, average shooter, that will let bullets "fly freely"...
Heck! Even in basic defensive shooting classes, you are taught that what lies beyond your target is as important to assess before pulling the trigger, as your target and your own position are.

your one spewing bovine facial matter.
i bet in not one of those videos have you seen them hit the target every shot, especially if being shot at or taking cover. you can have control of your weapon and still miss your shot trained people do it all the time.

Bessie's beauty products aside, I never said all cops should be perfect all the time. But, there are enough facts regarding this, and other similar cases, that clearly show major errors in judgment, by the officer involved. And, like many have stated in this thread, simply attributing those errors to the suspect, even an innocent's death, seems to go too far, to me.

I agree with the law, as it applies to criminal accomplices. But, to be used by law enforcement as a get-out-of-jail-free card, when actions clearly show otherwise, just isn't right!

And, I'm sure the ensuing civil award to the victim's family, will concur...

a reply to: alienjuggalo

Another perfect example of know-nothings thinking they know how to perform Law enforcement better than the cops.
A great example of Dunning Kruger effect. In otherwords you're to ignorant to know you are ignorant therefore you think higher of yourself than is really deserved.

The fault in the shooting is on the suspect, not the officers. Therefore he is charged with the death of the bystander.
It is not a matter of the Officer "Can't shoot straight". It is a matter of it being a crowded bar and in a fast reacting situation, not every bullet is going to find it's intended mark, nor is it to say the bullet found it's mark and penetrated beyond to find an additional target.

A weapon had been fired.
The suspect made to act like he was drawing a weapon.
In the end, the decision to fire on the suspect was not made by the police, but forced on the police by the actions of the suspect. Thus all results of the action are the responsibility of the suspect.

I am sick and tired of idiots and morons who do not and cannot grasp the situation acting like they know who was wrong and constantly blaming the wrong party.

You're just another know-nothing armchair commando thinking you know better than those who actually do know better than you.

(Brother of a 15 year veteran Officer)

another thing in the second link they don't say where the woman was, was she behind him, to the left or right, or even if maybe she was inside behind the locked door,or maybe looking out the bar's window, just she was a bystander. but where was she bystanding.

the cop on other hand, that's a weird one, one would think that they all would be to the front of him. especially if they thought he had a gun, which the 911 call said he was a gun waving manic.

originally posted by: thov420

originally posted by: GoOfYFoOt
a reply to: sdcigarpig
...the first bullet ( and sometimes even the second one) usually strikes the ground in front of the target, as the officer is bringing his firearm up to eye level. There is even footage of the first round being fired before the pistol even leaves the holster! That is PANIC! Pure and simple.

I can understand some panic/adrenaline pumping but why the hell is a "trained" officer shooting without even having a target in sight, sometimes by your own admission before he even gets the gun out of his holster? I mean one of the first things you learn in training is to identify your target and the beyond right? But cops get a green light because why?

The videos that I referred to, are mostly LEO training videos, and attempt to show what can happen, in a "routine" traffic stop. As I said, panic is the foremost reason. An officer, surprised by loud noises and bright flashes, realizes that he/she is being shot at. As his or her "training" kicks in, he/she deploys his or her weapon to return fire. The mind tends to focus on the fear, and a flight scenario typically ensues. The actual return fire is a conditioned response stemming from their training, but has been abbreviated for all intents and purposes. So, what should be a fluid movement, with several actions performed in a close sequence, becomes a jittery, spastic action, where the parts mostly happen all at once...

originally posted by: CG23Sailor
a reply to: alienjuggalo
It is a matter of it being a crowded bar

This is my biggest complaint. It's not some dude on the street or in a drug house or whatever, It's a crowded bar full of innocent bystanders. Maybe the cops should have a little restraint.

A weapon had been fired.
The suspect made to act like he was drawing a weapon.

Is this suspect the suspect in question? If so I can see the officer's POV. He has a job to protect others in the bar. Shooting badly into a crowd of people isn't protecting anybody except the officer/s in question.

I am sick and tired of idiots and morons who do not and cannot grasp the situation acting like they know who was wrong and constantly blaming the wrong party.

You're just another know-nothing armchair commando thinking you know better than those who actually do know better than you.

(Brother of a 15 year veteran Officer)

so having an opinion on a police shooting makes me an idiot and a moron? Hardly.

a reply to: GoOfYFoOt

I've never been shot at or in any kind of high stress situation like that so I honestly have no idea what it would be like but they are supposed to be trained for it. They should have at least some kind of muscle memory for what to do, I mean that's what their training is for right?

So. Was it the LEO that was drinking? Am I the only one that hopes the shot LEO roughes the shooter up?

This is not helping. People are going to stop calling the police. We'll see numbers of crime down but, really people will just be handled without documentation.

a reply to: Iamthatbish

Honestly I'd be hesitant to call the police for any reason other than to get me an ambulance and even then the cops might kill me before the EMT's get there. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way nowadays.