Is Jesus being depicted as satan in the arts?

a reply to: Gryphon66

NVM....

Anyway, what do you think of Cargo Cults??? I think they are pretty interesting.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Now, where were we?

I'm really not sure just where OP was going, now that you mention it.

From a bit later, when clarifying the matter to Aural, OP stated:

Because Christ is the God of heaven, and satan and his cohorts rule the earth. Why are both the satanic pagan gods holding up the same sign as "Christ?" Is it really Christ?

Now aside from the obvious mumbo-jumbo, OP is obviously concerned with two ... wildly disparate examples of "satanic" gods using the same gesture as what looks like an early 20th century image of Jesus.

It took about five seconds to find this bit of background on the "two fingers blessing."

The sign was originally derived from a symbol used in Roman art to indicate speaking, and first gained popularity as a Christian symbol shortly after Constantine's issue of the Edict of Milan in 313 AD, allowing Christians to practice their religion freely, without the threat of persecution. Indeed, Constantine himself converted to Christianity, and Christian art flourished. In early images of Christ, one can see an early manifestation of the sign of benediction in which the thumb is closed over the palm, rather than open. As Christian art evolved, symbols, including Christ's hand gestures, took on deeper significance. With the thumb opened, the three open digits came to represent the Trinity (The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), while the two closed represented the dual nature of Christ as both man and God.

Since one of the two examples OP uses is the modern statue of Satan, er, Baphomet, er, The Horned One, that the Satanic Temple is going to install in Oklahoma, and the style is very classical, if not Roman ... it would seem that "Satan" is copying Christ, in this case, not the other way around.

I'd be more concerned about the possible conspiracy ramifications of the seated horned figure's similarity to this one ...



Nah ... the Temple is probably just trying to make ol' Scratch seem as innocuous as possible ...

... or, is that part of the Plan?



PS: The Cargo Cults are fascinating. A perfect example of how rapidly humans can develop and promulgate a whole "RELIGION" out of , well, old trash and crashed planes.

Reminds me of Larry Niven's classic "Dream Park" the Cargo Cults figured prominently in the story.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I think I can confidently say the premise of the OP has been thoroughly dis-proven on several levels. It makes me wonder if there was any forethought or research earnestly put forth before it was posted. Seems like he/she came up with the notion and purposely ignored any information to the contrary in short. Basically through it at the wall hoping the premise would stick.

Oh well still had some interesting side topics to explore. I didn't know there were possibly 30 million or more deities throughout history till I looked it up.

And..The cargo cults was fun to revisit. I would love to see a movie based off of that.

Sometimes its tempting to go outside of the T&C but I rarely do it on purpose. It has happened more than a few times when I didn't know any better but I learned each time. I like that ATS is meant to be civil that is what sets it apart.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Agreed. Although, I'd bet we could trace the "blessing gesture" back even further than the Romans, if we tried ... a lot of statues of Ganesh for example, can be seen to be doing something almost similar with the hands.

EDIT: Bingo, it looks somewhat like a variation on the "Priestly Blessing" offered by Rabbis at the end of the service in Judaism. The hands are held out toward the congregation (in what looks like a "Vulcan Salute" but remember, Leonard Nimoy is Jewish).

Well...Jesus said he is the word, the truth and the life. So if you were to believe would you not say Jesus' words be comin' true? No one else has ever said that. If we say "Jesse was the word" and the words seem more real....man, who was this guy???

a reply to: Gryphon66

You mean this Ganesh?

I kind of like the second one as it shows how the swastika was much older than what most associate it with today.

Just about everything is borrowed from something else tat goes for religions as well if not especially for them.

Yes, swastika is seen in a lot of Buddhist art as well ... and also in Roman Catholic churches

This one, for example, was over the chapel door where a young Adolf Hitler prayed everyday as a Benedictine altar boy ...

a reply to: Gryphon66

You see that makes a lot of sense now. I wondered where he got the inspiration for the swastika/Kanji.

It is amazing how people will deny he wasn't heavily influenced by religion Catholicism to be precise in lieu of all the evidence and his own statements. That pic right there should cinch it for most rational minds but be are not always rational.

a reply to: Harvin

Well...Jesus said he is the word, the truth and the life.

Don't you mean someone other than Jesus claimed he said that many years after his death? This is just me but shouldn't a Deities son be able to read and write?

So if you were to believe would you not say Jesus' words be comin' true?

I am a little confused by your question. Are you saying his words have come true or are you saying they will be coming true or are you saying they are coming true now? If his words had come true I think I would be more inclined to believe if you are saying they will be coming true then there is no evidence and it wouldn't sway me at all and if you say they are coming true now then again I need evidence of that actually happening because ATM I am not aware of any examples of such.

I think the American Indian tribe had a prophecy that depicted instant communication across the world such as internet, TV, or even the telegraph. As far as prophecy's go that's pretty good I would think the son of a Deity could do at least that good such as airplanes, space travel, cars, trains, metal ships, or blow some minds with describing computers, lasers, I phones, or 3d printers. I am just saying I think the son of an all knowing deity could have been a lot less ambiguous if he really wanted to spreed the word.

No one else has ever said that.

Are you sure? Out of the thousands of known deities and the millions of forgotten ones that none of their followers have said that their word is the truth? Really do you really think that is a new concept from Christianity? The life? I think that would also be an old concept as well.

If we say "Jesse was the word" and the words seem more real....man, who was this guy???

I don't know. Who is Jesse? Why do Jesse's words seem more real than Ron's? Even if they do seem more real than Ron's why does it matter when it turns out to be false?

originally posted by: Grimpachi
a reply to: Gryphon66

You see that makes a lot of sense now. I wondered where he got the inspiration for the swastika/Kanji.

It is amazing how people will deny he wasn't heavily influenced by religion Catholicism to be precise in lieu of all the evidence and his own statements. That pic right there should cinch it for most rational minds but be are not always rational.

I am certain anyone reading this knows the history of the swastika. A simple google search is all it takes. Symbols dont seem to have any effect on me personally.

Last night my last two posts here were after a few beers and some frustration trying to answer obtuse posts. The mods were on point for deleting them.

My point was that some things do seem a little strange in that some of the things seem to be coming true...I do listen to apocalyptic preachers and like i said i am still mainly agnostic, but i have to admit that i enjoy the writings of John and now we know a little more about "wormwood" and the Chernobyl connection is a bit of a head scratcher.

I am still trying to get an answer as to which historical figures were believed to have existed and were shown not to exist. I mean actual humans.

I do not see where Windword, Gryphon66 or Grimpachi were able to do this? Just a lot of noise and obfuscation...but even in obfuscation some things can be learned.

a reply to: ArchPlayer

1st, lets prove Jesus even existed, since we all know Christianity was based on the Greek texts they heavily edited; the Greeks got it from Sun Worship from the Nubians, and there WAS NO JESUS.

Not true at all. Christianity was founded by the Hebrews which is plainly shown in the Hebrew literature. The first Christians were Hebrews with Hebrew Liturgy. The Greek Jews were allowed into their congregations at a much later date.
Jesus' brother James the just was the first high priest (Nasi) of the first Christian synagogue. The church flourished till about 135 CE when Hadrian slaughtered the Jews, stole Christianity and Roman Christianity was born.

Up to 135 CE the Hebrew synagogue used only the Hebrew Torah (not the Greek Septuagint). Also there is much evidence that the original letters of the NT were indeed Hebrew and came into Greek by copyists at later dates. The Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew Torah in about the second to third centuries before Christ Jesus.

It is true that the Romans have usurped Christianity and it has developed into the mess that it is today and you are right when you say that the manuscripts that exist today are heavily edited and not translated correctly. I also would love to see proof of the existence of Jesus and not only Jesus but the entire NT characters.

I don't mean to be contentious just my own opinions.

Harvin:

Alright, let's reset. First off, may I suggest that you don't insult folks who merely disagree with your position.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make anyone "wrong."

Secondly, you asked in a somewhat odd phrasing about "the ones who were once thought to be real have been proven not to exist."

We provided multiple examples which you disagree with, so perhaps you need to clarify your question?

Third, beyond all that, the discussion is not really about whether Jesus was a real, historically verifiable person, or not, but the meaning of the rather odd hand gesture seen in hundreds of Jesus images.

The "thumb up, two fingers extended, two fingers folded" gesture.

Any thoughts on that?

Best,

originally posted by: Gryphon66
Harvin:

Alright, let's reset. First off, may I suggest that you don't insult folks who merely disagree with your position.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make anyone "wrong."

Secondly, you asked in a somewhat odd phrasing about "the ones who were once thought to be real have been proven not to exist."

We provided multiple examples which you disagree with, so perhaps you need to clarify your question?

Third, beyond all that, the discussion is not really about whether Jesus was a real, historically verifiable person, or not, but the meaning of the rather odd hand gesture seen in hundreds of Jesus images.

The "thumb up, two fingers extended, two fingers folded" gesture.

Any thoughts on that?

Best,

I gave an answer (what i found) to the OP regarding the hand sign. All I did was give the google result that i viewed as accurate. One sign we see often is his name. Very easy to find in a search and basically nothing regarding "depicted as satan in the arts"...this does not mean it has not happened since "the arts" could take years at looking at every image drawn, painted etc.

Yes i got a little frustrated, anyone would. Neither you or Grim seem to be reading the posts through or are skipping posts. Now since you are asking me what i think about the hand signs once again.

It was not me who took this thread off course either.

To the other, i may make a thread on that since it did get interesting OR one of the members can do it since i am satisfied with the answer - Grimpachi, yourself, Windword (hope that is his name) can do it if you feel confident enough that you will do well. Your choices were to me, comical. I just thought you were not serious since you gave characters like Paul Bunyan and everyone knows this is a literary character...you gave responses found in popular folk lore. And just so Grim knows - The Cargo Cults only support what i was saying...SO you, grim, windword DO understand very clearly what i was asking and nothing panned out for you.

No harm done, I enjoyed the discussion and accept the sanctioning from the mod. I admitted i had a few beers at that point and i got just a little rambunctious in the last two posts but nothing out of the ordinary on a discussion forum and i think i know enough to tell when i am getting poked on a forum by a member or two...you notice that when they work in teams and frankly you and Grim went off the rails. IMOP.

Harvin, Paul Bunyan really got your goat for some reason, eh?

"Paul Bunyan and Babe the Blue Ox" are obviously fantastic characters. Yes, absolutely. No question.

BUT, here are the important parts that *are* vitally comparable to the "Jesus" figure, which to me (and many others) is PRECISELY as fantastic and unreal as Paul Bunyan.

1. Stories about Paul Bunyan started (or were created) in the oral tradition among loggers in the American and Canadian frontier. These stories were based on two parts 1) real living individuals who of course were not actually 100 ft tall, but who probably did perform extraordinary feats of logging/strength and appeared to the "normal" loggers and frontiersmen around them to be supernaturally gifted, and 2) the "good parts" of older heroic stories, tales, myths and legends that were combined and reused in the Paul Bunyan legends.

2. Later on, the "actual story" of Paul Bunyan was written down by a man named William Laughead, this included an origin story, his boyhood, his acts of bravery and strength, etc. etc. etc.

3. Paul Bunyan went on to become a very well-known individual in American and Canadian popular culture, and has had additional stories, movies, musicals, etc. etc. created about him and his "story." Also, as time went on, elements were added to the stories to make them more interesting, consistent, etc.

4. There are statues of Paul all over North America. In certain parts of America and Canada, Paul Bunyan is as easily recognized as Mickey Mouse, or Superman or ...

Well, other mythological figures.

5. All of this creation of this clearly recognizable and describable person happened in less than 250 years.

Now, compare that with the "Jesus" history ... and I think you'll see the clear parallel.

Good ol' Paul wasn't as shallow or superfluous an example as he might have seemed ... at first.

Best,


Additional note: Grimpachi and I weren't working "in a team" anymore than I and Windword were, or you and glend or Jesuslives4u ... no one is out to get you or "haze" you.

a reply to: Harvin

I am certain anyone reading this knows the history of the swastika. A simple google search is all it takes. Symbols dont seem to have any effect on me personally.

Well I am not so certain everyone knows the origins of the swastica from either the eastern religions or Hitlers motivation afterall you didn't seem to know that there were thousands of deities that aso could be obtained by a simple google search.

Last night my last two posts here were after a few beers and some frustration trying to answer obtuse posts. The mods were on point for deleting them.

You have my sympathy's. It is unfortunate that you feel the need to drink to such levels when faced with ucomftrble situations.

My point was that some things do seem a little strange in that some of the things seem to be coming true...I do listen to apocalyptic preachers and like i said i am still mainly agnostic, but i have to admit that i enjoy the writings of John and now we know a little more about "wormwood" and the Chernobyl connection is a bit of a head scratcher.

Again you have my sympathies even though it is of your own volition for listining and reading such things the effect seems to be a negative one on you. I will mention I do not share your views about such connections.

I am still trying to get an answer as to which historical figures were believed to have existed and were shown not to exist. I mean actual humans.

I believe you asked Winword that question. In fact the closest you came to asking me a question even remotly like that was when you said.

That is a lot of conjecture all rolled into a few sentences. You assume some did.

So surely not Paul Bunyan. Seriously.

Considering I had repeatedly asked you if you honestly believed that i was only when Chritianity came about that people took the stories of deities serriously. Which BTW you never answered but your previous statements claimed as much. The statement you made about "me assuming some people did believe in the deities" I answered by telling you.


"I don't think Paul Bunyan is part of that list. I would say the deities in which human and animal sacrifices were made to would qualify as strong belief in that deity...NO?"

If you felt that answer wasn't substantial for the question you asked then you could have explained why. Not that it concerns me, but I am just saying. You really were not really holding up your end of the conversation. For what it was.

I do not see where Windword, Gryphon66 or Grimpachi were able to do this? Just a lot of noise and obfuscation...but even in obfuscation some things can be learned.

In that statement I think lay the problem. You see on several occasions you either claimed I made ceratin statements which I didn't, expected me to answer a question you never asked of me, or assumed I was part of making some list of deities which I hadn't.

You see I am not Windword or Gryphon66 so even though you may think we are all of one mind or we are colaberating to somehow make you look foolish I assure you the only PM I sent last night about you was to try to figure out what was wrong with you because you really made no sense at times and it seems the guess that you had to much to drink was correct by your own admission.

Oh and as for John Frum and the cargo cults I tink thats great if you believe such things only strengthen your position it would be interesting if ou could explain how you came to that conclusion exactly but I will understand if choose to keep it to yourself. I did go back and see where you said:

Grant it, i have to look for "John Henry", i know about "Frum" etc.

Sorry but at the time I had no idea what you were talking about except that you had heard of them plus I didn't make the connection to John Frum and the Cargo Cults it had been quite a while since I read that story but to be honest I was conversing with Gryphon on that matter so I don't know why you got all antsy about it.

Anyway if you wan't to continue the conversation thats fine but I think it would progress further without the drinks. Thats just my opinion. I like a drink now and then myself but for me it isn't enjoyable if the next day I am explaining what I did the night before.

Edit to add:

I just saw Gryphon posted while I was typing. As he said I am not out to get you and there is no team. Well at least I can say I am not on any team..lol To reiterate though if I haven't stated a postion you shouldn't expect me to argue for it. I may dissagree with somethingyou wan't me to argue for. That will not work out to well.

John Henry was also a precise example included for a precise reason.

As a hero of American folklore, he is often combined with P. Bunyan in compilations of stories, and "tall tales" and has been considered to be purely fictional. However, stories about John Henry, it seems, as distinct from Bunyan (who was at best a fantastic amalgamation of many people) was probably based on one real actual person ... John William Henry who was described in Scott Nelson's 2006 book Steel Drivin' Man: John Henry, the Untold Story of an American Legend.

However, (and keep in mind these events occured only a little over 130 years ago) all through the early part of the 20th century the debate raged in books, etc. about whether the events described in the story (John Henry is a superhumanly strong railroad worker who challenges a "steam drill" to a contest to see who can build a tunnel the fastest.) or whether it was just a story. Many books were written either proving that John Henry was real or was "merely" a legend.

And only 130 years later, in a culture with modern recordkeeping, newspapers, libraries, etc. ... we still don't know for certain whether "John Henry" was a real person or not.

LOL...Grimpachi you are some piece of work...thats all. LMFAO....

originally posted by: Aural
Guys lighten up. Here have a horned Moses due to bad bible translations saying he had horns and Michaelangelo being a prankster to Pope Julius II

Well I think Ole Mikey ( Angelo that is ) might have known more then we give him credit for. It does mention in Jude that Satan contended with Gabriel over the body of Moses. I used to believe that it was in an effort to prevent it from being taken to heaven although now I believe it was in an effort to ascertain the grounds for it... in order for himself to be admitted. It is true that Mercy triumphs over Judgement and that is something the Prince of Pride has a hard time with.

Harry