The Muslims who are condemning ISIS

a reply to: Xtrozero

Nice logic. I can do that too. If we have 0% of yogurt within UFO's we can extrapolate that 5% of Atheists are terrorists therefore 98% of people are unicorns.

To summarize, your reply made absolutely NO SENSE.

I have a colleague at work who is a muslim woman, and she is horrified by ISIS. She says that her religion has nothing to do with the sorts of acts they do- that they are just twisting the meanings of the Koran to use it as a pretext. She worries about her family at home, and that they are scared to death.

The thing that I find worrisome is....

I think she is right- the same thing was done with Christian faith long ago. It was used as an excuse to invade, terrorize and dominate peoples and lands long ago by the Europeans. As bad as that may be, it works.

Humans always end up being drawn towards power, whether it be exercised in an ethical way or not. The way people will form a gang behind a bully, shows how easily this happens. Once scared, if it gets to a point that they shock enough, and look powerful enough, individuals get stuck having to decide whether to beat 'em or join 'em.
If it looks like beating them isn't possible, they join them. It is our natural survival instinct, and that is even stronger if you have, say a family of your own to protect. You join whatever side looks to be the biggest threat.

In the end, human behavior will use whatever works, even if they find ways to justify or explain it that aren't completely coherent. If you haven't the money to impress and gain followers through fancy military technology and big planes, a steak knife and a camera will do.

a reply to: Bluesma

I have a colleague at work who is a muslim woman, and she is horrified by ISIS. She says that her religion has nothing to do with the sorts of acts they do- that they are just twisting the meanings of the Koran to use it as a pretext. She worries about her family at home, and that they are scared to death.

Sorry to hear about your colleague and her concerns. I hope her family is safe and remains so.

I think she is right- the same thing was done with Christian faith long ago. It was used as an excuse to invade, terrorize and dominate peoples and lands long ago by the Europeans. As bad as that may be, it works.

No, it wasn't. The crusades were largely a response to the same thing you are seeing today in ISIS. Progressive agendas have essentially painted the crusades as an invasion when anyone with even a passing interest in history can see that they were a response to the muslim conquests.

Humans always end up being drawn towards power, whether it be exercised in an ethical way or not. The way people will form a gang behind a bully, shows how easily this happens. Once scared, if it gets to a point that they shock enough, and look powerful enough, individuals get stuck having to decide whether to beat 'em or join 'em.
If it looks like beating them isn't possible, they join them. It is our natural survival instinct, and that is even stronger if you have, say a family of your own to protect. You join whatever side looks to be the biggest threat.

I'm not so sure this is true in the case of ISIS. They have inspired so much zeal within certain aspects of muslim culture that they have people from all over the world joining their cause. Something is obviously wrong with their ideology, but it is resonating with certain muslims across the globe, and not a result of coercion.

In the end, human behavior will use whatever works, even if they find ways to justify or explain it that aren't completely coherent. If you haven't the money to impress and gain followers through fancy military technology and big planes, a steak knife and a camera will do.

Why do you think that works? What would it take to inspire you to cut someones head off for your beliefs?

Work and have worked with quite some Muslims (Turks, Moroccans. Somali, Iraqi, Iranians) and they were all peaceful people that condemned violence, and never forced their religion on to me. It's always a small group of rotten apples that spoil it for the rest, that's a fact for every group.

Actually Quran tells to protect Christian churches in conquered areas and not to kill or convert Christians. Quran tells to let people practice their own religion inside muslim countries. Its one of the most important rules, because Christianity and Islam are so close to each other, we have same God, both believe in Jesus, Noah and so on.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Bluesma


No, it wasn't. The crusades were largely a response to the same thing you are seeing today in ISIS. Progressive agendas have essentially painted the crusades as an invasion when anyone with even a passing interest in history can see that they were a response to the muslim conquests.

How many Muslims were there in South America, or in Mexico, when the Christians went there and wiped out the natives, and converted them, and claimed the land in the name of the Lord?

I'm not so sure this is true in the case of ISIS. They have inspired so much zeal within certain aspects of muslim culture that they have people from all over the world joining their cause. Something is obviously wrong with their ideology, but it is resonating with certain muslims across the globe, and not a result of coercion.

I simply see the Will to Power as a common driving force in all of us, consciously recognized or not.
I observe it every day, all around me.

It is relevant to consider how many white european girls I see in my own area, converting to Islam. Bad boys have always held the interest of fertile females- it is natural instinct. You want a tough and scary protector for you and your offspring. If he shows to be in line with a whole group of scary people, who could be your tribe, all the better.

Why do you think that works? What would it take to inspire you to cut someones head off for your beliefs?

It works because I look at history. People join the enemy when it invades and kills your people.

I would not do this sort of stuff, I have no beliefs. I have these ideas, at this time, based on experience and observation, and they could change tomorrow. But this is what they are today. I do not insist on anyone seeing the world the same way as I. Not even you.

-After having written that, it struck me later that I was not clear on my meaning, in response to the question

Why do you think that works? What would it take to inspire you to cut someones head off for your beliefs?

When I said it "works" I meant it is successful within the intent of conquering people and land. Violence provides the impact and impression of power, and the ideology used becomes the adhesive common thread which holds the group together.

Ideologies like "democracy" or "freedom" have been used this way, in current times, for conquest. We can watch how that gives everyone involved a shared "invisible master" to serve.

I am female. I do not have much drive towards conquest, as many males do. However, I have the maternalistic drives to sacrifice self in order to protect those I love.... and I admit realistically, if a group of men came into my home tomorrow, cut off my husbands head in front of me, then held the knife to my childrens throats and told me I could either join them, put on their garb and claim allegence to their God (or whatever ideology they hold high) or they would kill my children the same way, I would sacrifice my other personal ideals and values, to save their lives.
I would put on whatever they said, say whatever they want me to say, do whatever ritual and behavior expected of me, to save their lives.

Some people would do that without waiting to have their spouse die in front of them first- they might do that to avoid it, if it looked like it could potentially happen.

Go Kurds!
They are manifesting the true spirit of the religion and culture.
It seems sad that mankind hasn't really progressed that far since the Conquistadors made the acquaintance of the native peoples of the southeastern US. I had the good fortune to be able to study some of the victims of those early encounters and the wounds those folks suffered were quite similar to what I'm hearing of today by ISIS.
May the Creator bless us all...and show us the way to peace.

originally posted by: DeadSeraph

originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: govmule

The Kurds fighting then is great but has little to do with religion.

To say it has nothing to do with religion is like taking the message of the Westboro Baptists and branding the whole of Christiandom with it. The Kurds are a relevant topic because clearly they are muslim and are protecting people of other faiths instead of slaughtering them.

Well what I said has nothing to do with anything like Westboro but nice try. Kurds whatever the religion have wanted their own nation for a good while. This is more along the tribal nationalistic lines.

A better comparison it would be more along the lines of European nations fighting but having the same faith predominantly. All praying to Jesus before getting out of the fox hole.

originally posted by: Bluesma

originally posted by: DeadSeraph
a reply to: Bluesma


No, it wasn't. The crusades were largely a response to the same thing you are seeing today in ISIS. Progressive agendas have essentially painted the crusades as an invasion when anyone with even a passing interest in history can see that they were a response to the muslim conquests.

How many Muslims were there in South America, or in Mexico, when the Christians went there and wiped out the natives, and converted them, and claimed the land in the name of the Lord?

Question is who were the many tribes that helped the Conquistadors defeat the Aztecs? Just about every other tribe in the country helped them. Couldn't stand those Aztec slave drivers.

a reply to: Willtell
And yet it is not enough. Nor will it be. I want to see more, and I am not talking about the smaller Imman's doing such, but the big guns, the leaders of Islamic countries doing such. When you can get the Saudi Royal family in a joint statement with the head of Iran, and other countries, where there is a strong Islamic presence coming forward, then the world will then take such seriously. But until then, these are just a few people who are trying to do the job of many, and having small voices.

Perhaps when the larger Islamic countries, start with it, it will take off and the fear and distrust will fade away, however, until that time frame, it is just a small snap, when a large clap is needed. When there is things like apologies for the senseless destruction of things like historical sites, and the attempts to destroy thousands of years of history, for the death of innocence and they start taking the steps to stop the flow of arms, and man power to those who would do such, where they would treat them as offensive to the Islamic world as say, Salman Rushdie, then that would suffice. But until then, still don't really believe them.

The reality is that right now there are multiple conflicts going on in the Middle East and with the Islamic world, and between the different sects. It is one group that hates another group for things that happened long ago, and instead of moving past, they are bound and determined to try to right old wrongs, instead of moving on and forgiving. And the other sad truth of it all, is that, within all of these conflicts, it will never be solved with weapons, but with words.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: Willtell
The reality is that right now there are multiple conflicts going on in the Middle East and with the Islamic world, and between the different sects. It is one group that hates another group for things that happened long ago, and instead of moving past, they are bound and determined to try to right old wrongs, instead of moving on and forgiving. And the other sad truth of it all, is that, within all of these conflicts, it will never be solved with weapons, but with words.

The reality is that right now only two groups are working regardless of beliefs and sects and nations. Pro-Israel and Anti-Israel. Israel is the symbol of new world order. All other groups can be put in these two categories.

a reply to: sdcigarpig

We’d all like to see more. Why don’t you write them letters?

Islamic governments attacking terrorism might create more of it.

Saudi Arabia is a victim of terrorism themselves often.

Iran is a enemy of the US but often condemns terrorism since they are victims of Israeli terrorism

Everytime the liars say “ Muslims never condem terror

When you show them to be the liars they are or just ignorant or that they have an agenda they always say what you say:

WE WANT MORE

What more can people do?

The vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people they don’t really understand terrorism no more than you do and they do denounce it VERY OFTEN

en.wikipedia.org...
"In the article "Why are there no condemnations from Muslim sources against terrorists?" Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance summarizes:
A common complaint among non-Muslims is that Muslim religious authorities do not condemn terrorist attacks. The complaints often surface in letters to the editors of newspapers, on phone-in radio shows, in Internet mailing lists, forums, etc. A leader of an evangelical Christian para-church group, broadcasting over Sirius Family Net radio, stated that he had done a thorough search on the Internet for a Muslim statement condemning terrorism, without finding a single item.

Actually, there are lots of fatwas and other statements issued which condemn attacks on innocent civilians. Unfortunately, they are largely ignored by newspapers, television news, radio news and other media outlets.
Contrary to common image, many Muslims have spoken out against 9/11,[3] and against terrorist attacks in general.

In 2010 Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri issued the Fatwa on Terrorism, endorsed by Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Egypt.
The Free Muslims Coalition rallied against terror, stating that they wanted to send "a message to radical Muslims and supporters of terrorism that we reject them and that we will defeat them."[citation needed]
In 2008 the 9 killed Mumbai militants who perpetrated the 2008 Mumbai attacks were refused an Islamic burial by influential Muslim Jama Masjid Trust who stated 'People who committed this heinous crime cannot be called Muslim'.[10]

Yemen
In November 2010, thousands of Yemeni tribesmen vowed to back the government's efforts in its battles against Al-Qaeda and promised to fight alongside the troops. Chieftain Naji bin Abdul-Aziz al-Shaif of the northern powerful Bakeel tribe and the organizer of the rally stated: "We will fight against al-Qaida group as it harmed the reputation of the country, Yemeni tribes and Muslims...We expressed our sorrow to all countries and people who were harmed by al-Qaida and we demanded President Ali Abdullah Saleh to handle the situation and we will stand by him."[19]
en.wikipedia.org..." END WIKI QUOTE.



What more can these poor Muslims do?
They not only denounce it but ARE DYING FIGHTING IT.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: sdcigarpig
Saudi Arabia is a victim of terrorism themselves often.

governments of Saudi Arabia, USA and Israel are all allies of each other. They are behind ISIS.
Well, Ok. There is a hide odd system.
Nowadays such things can not remain hidden.

a reply to: Willtell
Muslims countries condemn terrorism but THEY DONT TRY TO STOP IT. Words don't mean jack sh*t when people are getting their heads cut off, women are raped, children are crucified. Like I stated before, until an outside Muslim nation uses military force and shed their own Muslim blood to stop these ISIS pigs I will have zero respect for any words they use. There is only one way to deal with pigs like ISIS, it comes from the end of a gun barrel... not a newspaper article. These ISIS pigs are an imminent threat to any peace and freedom most of us as humans on the planet strive for, until they are eliminated and their killing of innocent people ideology is dead, this will never end.

originally posted by: Willtell
a reply to: sdcigarpig

Saudi Arabia is a victim of terrorism themselves often.

Where did Bin Laden come from? Where did most of the 911 hijackers come from? Don't give me that BS about the poor Saudi government, they could care less. I would be willing to bet over 70% of all money for terrorism comes from the Saudi's, can I prove it, no, but some ideologies that originate in that country certainly show a lust for terrorism. Funny how none of the rich Saudi princes or their families are never killed in a terrorist attack? My hope is that some day soon the world doesn't need oil, then what will the rich Saudi's, bankers, and oil companies do? They say money is the root of all evil, some religions are a close second.

a reply to: govmule

Chill out, I agree with you on ISIL AND Saudi and Qatar. I’M no fan of Saudi Arabia, their version of Islam is part of the problem.

Wahhabism was created in the 16th century by a fundamentalist fanatic.en.wikipedia.org...

They are the root of much of the fundamentalism behind radical Islam.
Though they aren’t overtly violent and are, believe it or not, an ally of America…oil.
This thread is about Muslims who condemn terrorism including ISIL.

a reply to: Willtell
Funny you should mention Saudi Arabia and Iran, after all those are the biggest supporters of terrorist groups. Iran supports Hamas, a well known terrorist organization. They do not stop Hamas, in fact, it can be stated that even the Syria civil war that is going on right now could have been stopped by Iran, as they have a heavy influence of over the Assad government. At any time they could have cut the military aid and actually done something unique, like work for peace, yet have done nothing.

Saudi Arabia, this is the same country to which funded the Taliban in Afganistan, the same group while in power turned around and blew up statues that offended them all in the name of Islam, and is currently causing problems in Pakistan. Those who are of the Sunni's and are terrorist tend to get the majority of their funding from where? That is right Saudi Arabia.

So how can countries that actively support known terrorist organizations, what sympathy can we have for them when they are the victims of such?

The point being, if they want to condemn it, then by all means go the extra step and do something novel like stop the funding and giving of money and manpower.

a reply to: govmule

Why don't you stop the U.S. from droning innocent civilians in Yemen and Pakistan.
Why don't you stop the C.I.A. from working with the Saudi's to fund and train and make terrorist groups in Syria.

originally posted by: samjonesy
a reply to: govmule

Why don't you stop the U.S. from droning innocent civilians in Yemen and Pakistan.
Why don't you stop the C.I.A. from working with the Saudi's to fund and train and make terrorist groups in Syria.

Pakistan harbored and aided Bin Laden, they should have been punished severely for that. I can't stop the US from doing anything, all I can do is point out evil and lies when I find them. If innocent people are being killed, perhaps they should not be hanging out with and harboring terrorists. The Us also droned a US citizen for terrorist activity, he deserved it. Why don't the people in Pakistan and Yemen turn in these terrorists and force them out of their country, or better yet kill them? The truth is, many people in those countries, especially Saudi Arabia, sympathize with terrorists and want them to kill Americans.