Creationism or Evolutionism? Or could it be a combination of both?

a reply to: UB2120

You fail to acknowledge that humans and all species existed before your God, witch was invented to explain things people wondered and / or to scare people and turn them into followers.

If you just a check history behind religion, you would find that already Ancient Egyptian priests, who have many Gods, discovered that having people believe in them gave them power, and in some cases even more power then Pharaoh of the time. They have their story of how life came to be on earth, that included first God - Atum, who got self aware and trough masturbation created universe and stars in sky. (Makes you wonder why not so many people have ever heard about Egyptian belief in life origin ) linky for one of stories...

Why is your god and belief more important then Ancient Egyptian belief???

The same goes with all other religions, witch actually proves that we invented God (or something like that, for example there is tribe in Africa that believe that whole world is inside one huge snake belly), not other way around.

We don't have any evidence of god, creator or anything like that, while we have plenty of evidence of human races creating gods, in some cases hundreds of them...

See where we going with this?

originally posted by: SuperFrog
a reply to: UB2120

You fail to acknowledge that humans and all species existed before your God, witch was invented to explain things people wondered and / or to scare people and turn them into followers.

If you just a check history behind religion, you would find that already Ancient Egyptian priests, who have many Gods, discovered that having people believe in them gave them power, and in some cases even more power then Pharaoh of the time. They have their story of how life came to be on earth, that included first God - Atum, who got self aware and trough masturbation created universe and stars in sky. (Makes you wonder why not so many people have ever heard about Egyptian belief in life origin

) linky for one of stories...

Why is your god and belief more important then Ancient Egyptian belief???

The same goes with all other religions, witch actually proves that we invented God (or something like that, for example there is tribe in Africa that believe that whole world is inside one huge snake belly), not other way around.

We don't have any evidence of god, creator or anything like that, while we have plenty of evidence of human races creating gods, in some cases hundreds of them...

See where we going with this?

God existed before everything. He is the First Source and Center of all things and beings. I understand what you are saying about man creating a religion to socialize religion and it is true that cunning rulers have used it to their advantage for control. You need to understand the origins of worship.

Primitive religion had a biologic origin, a natural evolutionary development, aside from moral associations and apart from all spiritual influences. The higher animals have fears but no illusions, hence no religion. Man creates his primitive religions out of his fears and by means of his illusions.

In the evolution of the human species, worship in its primitive manifestations appears long before the mind of man is capable of formulating the more complex concepts of life now and in the hereafter which deserve to be called religion. Early religion was wholly intellectual in nature and was entirely predicated on associational circumstances. The objects of worship were altogether suggestive; they consisted of the things of nature which were close at hand, or which loomed large in the commonplace experience of the simple-minded primitive man.

When religion once evolved beyond nature worship, it acquired roots of spirit origin but was nevertheless always conditioned by the social environment. As nature worship developed, man’s concepts envisioned a division of labor in the supermortal world; there were nature spirits for lakes, trees, waterfalls, rain, and hundreds of other ordinary phenomena.

There are spiritual forces that stimulate the mind of man toward worship and then wisdom. When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom — meditative and experiential thinking — it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion.

I feel we have a lot of evidence of God. I would think the complexities of DNA or for that fact the human body would be evidence enough. Our bodies are bio-mechanical machines with an amazing ability to adapt. What evidence are you looking for? What would be good enough for you to prove to yourself that God exists?

originally posted by: GetHyped
a reply to: UB2120

You dismiss all other gods but yours. For the same reasons you dismiss the others, I dismiss yours. It's utterly absurd to believe that your personal god, for whom there is just as much evidence for existing as all the other gods humans have invented, has a hand in anything. I dismiss your god as an explanation for the existence of anything for the same reasons you dismiss Zeus. That is to say, there is absolutely no evidence and invoking some arbitrary god adds nothing to our understanding of anything. All this "there must be a first cause" is nothing more than you trying to reconcile your faith with reality. Why is Zeus not the first cause? When you reflect on the answer to that question you will understand why your god holds no special place.

There is only one God. I do not dismiss Zeus or any other God. It matters little what you call God or what your concept of him his, be that anthropomorphic or abstract. In the end you are worshiping the same God. God is no respecter of persons. He responds to the fantasist flicker of faith. God has never reveled himself by name, only nature. He speaks to all creation by the universal laws he has ordained.

The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universe. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.

a reply to: UB2120

Dominate to be loved and worshiped, why?

Is the creator of all existence then The Mother and the Farther of all existence?

What is the need then to multiply?

Why is Humanity needed?

What is the purpose of existence?

Confused

originally posted by: Fingle
a reply to: UB2120

Dominate to be loved and worshiped, why?

Is the creator of all existence then The Mother and the Farther of all existence?

What is the need then to multiply?

Why is Humanity needed?

What is the purpose of existence?

Confused

There is One Deity, but manifests itself to creation as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. When they unite they are total Deity, the Trinity.

You should love and worship God because he is the source. He granted us life and personality (identity) and a universe to experience it in. The mortal life is but the first, small step in a long potential existence in the universe. Our future existence is beyond human imagine for truly, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the mind of mortal man, the things which the Universal Father has prepared for those who survive the life in the flesh on the worlds of time and space.”

A quote from the Urantia Book, paper 3:

"Creatorship is hardly an attribute of God; it is rather the aggregate of his acting nature. And this universal function of creatorship is eternally manifested as it is conditioned and controlled by all the co-ordinated attributes of the infinite and divine reality of the First Source and Center. We sincerely doubt whether any one characteristic of the divine nature can be regarded as being antecedent to the others, but if such were the case, then the creatorship nature of Deity would take precedence over all other natures, activities, and attributes. And the creatorship of Deity culminates in the universal truth of the Fatherhood of God."

Humanity, and to expand that any mortal being on any planet, are in existence because it is the will of God. Our destiny is to become a spiritual being. It will take us a lot of training and experience to evolve to that. All of the other types of beings God has created have been created fully developed. We are a type of creation that must grow through intelligent application and in small steps.

a reply to: UB2120

Is the will of god, the will of man, to untangle duality and seek salvation, in the many forms man does, but does not see it as a form of?

Why can we not be the one, in our own essence flesh and blood self created, to establish our own belief, as one collective, or is it that we are just manufactured to prove a point, a shrine for an almighty ego?

Why does it have to be an almighty above or within, has self destiny not a cause.

Why always a creator, can existence not be the symbiotic nature of 3.5 billion years.

What if energy, matter,is the spark, to illuminate itself through human consciousness, do we have to then label it as a God?

Theological determinism, can never be the prayer of a metaphysical libertarian, is then choice a self will, a mechanical singularity of sorts?

The real key is interpretation,rather than feeding the scientific rationale, always to expand the self,the belief.

Before anything became in a state of becoming, it was the emergence, the beginning, of you, me, I and I AM not a god.

I Believe, In Belief,It Will exist, in all of our tomorrows today and yesterday.

a reply to: UB2120

"My faith in the fact that God has a process for initiating life on the worlds of space stems from my long standing belief that there is intelligent life on other planets throughout the universe."

The existence of intelligent life beyond our world is a reasonable belief.

We are but one of many children.

originally posted by: Fingle
a reply to: UB2120

Is the will of god, the will of man, to untangle duality and seek salvation, in the many forms man does, but does not see it as a form of?

Why can we not be the one, in our own essence flesh and blood self created, to establish our own belief, as one collective, or is it that we are just manufactured to prove a point, a shrine for an almighty ego?

Why does it have to be an almighty above or within, has self destiny not a cause.

Why always a creator, can existence not be the symbiotic nature of 3.5 billion years.

What if energy, matter,is the spark, to illuminate itself through human consciousness, do we have to then label it as a God?

Theological determinism, can never be the prayer of a metaphysical libertarian, is then choice a self will, a mechanical singularity of sorts?

The real key is interpretation,rather than feeding the scientific rationale, always to expand the self,the belief.

Before anything became in a state of becoming, it was the emergence, the beginning, of you, me, I and I AM not a god.

I Believe, In Belief,It Will exist, in all of our tomorrows today and yesterday.

Worship is the conscious and joyous act of recognizing and acknowledging the truth and fact of the intimate and personal relationships of the Creators with their creatures. The quality of worship is determined by the depth of creature perception.

The will of God can be likened to the golden rule. At least as it pertains to human existence. The will of God is infinite and encompasses everything. All material and spiritual reality. We are part of a gigantic whole. When our species evolves more and there is peace on earth and goodwill among men the interactions of one person to another will be like the golden rule.


To quote from the Urantia Book:

"(138.3) 12:7.8 The Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man present the paradox of the part and the whole on the level of personality. God loves each individual as an individual child in the heavenly family. Yet God thus loves every individual; he is no respecter of persons, and the universality of his love brings into being a relationship of the whole, the universal brotherhood.

(138.4) 12:7.9 The love of the Father absolutely individualizes each personality as a unique child of the Universal Father, a child without duplicate in infinity, a will creature irreplaceable in all eternity. The Father’s love glorifies each child of God, illuminating each member of the celestial family, sharply silhouetting the unique nature of each personal being against the impersonal levels that lie outside the fraternal circuit of the Father of all. The love of God strikingly portrays the transcendent value of each will creature, unmistakably reveals the high value which the Universal Father has placed upon each and every one of his children from the highest creator personality of Paradise status to the lowest personality of will dignity among the savage tribes of men in the dawn of the human species on some evolutionary world of time and space.

(138.5) 12:7.10 This very love of God for the individual brings into being the divine family of all individuals, the universal brotherhood of the freewill children of the Paradise Father. And this brotherhood, being universal, is a relationship of the whole. Brotherhood, when universal, discloses not the each relationship, but the all relationship. Brotherhood is a reality of the total and therefore discloses qualities of the whole in contradistinction to qualities of the part.

(138.6) 12:7.11 Brotherhood constitutes a fact of relationship between every personality in universal existence. No person can escape the benefits or the penalties that may come as a result of relationship to other persons. The part profits or suffers in measure with the whole. The good effort of each man benefits all men; the error or evil of each man augments the tribulation of all men. As moves the part, so moves the whole. As the progress of the whole, so the progress of the part. The relative velocities of part and whole determine whether the part is retarded by the inertia of the whole or is carried forward by the momentum of the cosmic brotherhood."

I believe you need to have a stereoscopic view of God to truly comprehend him on a individual level. You must approach him from all sides so to speak. People seem to have segregated God into religion only. God is in everything. At the moment there is not one topic I can think of that isn't related to God in some way. Many people call it a cop out, that if you can't explain something just say God did it. That is not how I look at it. Just because I don't understand the process fully or even partially does not mean I can't revere the one who did it.

Another quote from the Urantia Book:

(23.4) 1:2.1 God is primal reality in the spirit world; God is the source of truth in the mind spheres; God overshadows all throughout the material realms. To all created intelligences God is a personality, and to the universe of universes he is the First Source and Center of eternal reality. God is neither manlike nor machinelike. The First Father is universal spirit, eternal truth, infinite reality, and father personality.

(23.5) 1:2.2 The eternal God is infinitely more than reality idealized or the universe personalized. God is not simply the supreme desire of man, the mortal quest objectified. Neither is God merely a concept, the power-potential of righteousness. The Universal Father is not a synonym for nature, neither is he natural law personified. God is a transcendent reality, not merely man’s traditional concept of supreme values. God is not a psychological focalization of spiritual meanings, neither is he “the noblest work of man.” God may be any or all of these concepts in the minds of men, but he is more. He is a saving person and a loving Father to all who enjoy spiritual peace on earth, and who crave to experience personality survival in death.

a reply to: GetHyped

"Abiogenesis vs God" is nothing but a creationist false dichotomy."

If you think about it, even the most zealous Creationist must embrace abiogenesis. God created life where there was none. Right?

But seriously, either life began at some point, or life has always existed.

Does anyone buy that?

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: UB2120

"My faith in the fact that God has a process for initiating life on the worlds of space stems from my long standing belief that there is intelligent life on other planets throughout the universe."

The existence of intelligent life beyond our world is a reasonable belief.

We are but one of many children.

Agreed! It seems nearly impossible to me that we are the only intelligent life in the universe.

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: GetHyped

"Abiogenesis vs God" is nothing but a creationist false dichotomy."

If you think about it, even the most zealous Creationist must embrace abiogenesis. God created life where there was none. Right?

But seriously, either life began at some point, or life has always existed.

Does anyone buy that?

Since God is Eternal, and he is life then life has always existed. Even though that life was self contained. God has bestowed life to all, from the highest (Eternal Son of God) to the lowest protoplasmic cell and everything in between.

originally posted by: UB2120
Since God is Eternal, and he is life then life has always existed. Even though that life was self contained. God has bestowed life to all, from the highest (Eternal Son of God) to the lowest protoplasmic cell and everything in between.

And you know all those little details because....


Since when God felt a need to explain his doings to his creation? Why it happened only in one part of the world in somewhat short period of time? Why not now, again?

And lastly, this reminds me of Jim Jefferies' comments about USA and 'god bless America'. For million of years God created everything and then, about 200 years ago he decided to choose his own team among man. It sounds so ridiculous, when you hear it that way...

originally posted by: UB2120

originally posted by: Fingle
a reply to: UB2120

Dominate to be loved and worshiped, why?

Is the creator of all existence then The Mother and the Farther of all existence?

What is the need then to multiply?

Why is Humanity needed?

What is the purpose of existence?

Confused

There is One Deity, but manifests itself to creation as God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. When they unite they are total Deity, the Trinity.

You should love and worship God because he is the source. He granted us life and personality (identity) and a universe to experience it in. The mortal life is but the first, small step in a long potential existence in the universe. Our future existence is beyond human imagine for truly, “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither has it entered into the mind of mortal man, the things which the Universal Father has prepared for those who survive the life in the flesh on the worlds of time and space.”

A quote from the Urantia Book, paper 3:

"Creatorship is hardly an attribute of God; it is rather the aggregate of his acting nature. And this universal function of creatorship is eternally manifested as it is conditioned and controlled by all the co-ordinated attributes of the infinite and divine reality of the First Source and Center. We sincerely doubt whether any one characteristic of the divine nature can be regarded as being antecedent to the others, but if such were the case, then the creatorship nature of Deity would take precedence over all other natures, activities, and attributes. And the creatorship of Deity culminates in the universal truth of the Fatherhood of God."

Humanity, and to expand that any mortal being on any planet, are in existence because it is the will of God. Our destiny is to become a spiritual being. It will take us a lot of training and experience to evolve to that. All of the other types of beings God has created have been created fully developed. We are a type of creation that must grow through intelligent application and in small steps.

Ah see here we get info we can really understand. The mortal life then death then an afterlife as a spiritual being. I wonder how many would abandon their religious fantasy of choice if they could handle the reality of death being a terminal condition!!

originally posted by: UB2120

There is only one God.

I say there's 100 gods. My answer is as equally valid (i.e. baseless) as yours. If you were born and raised in India you'd be waxing lyrical about the Hindu gods. Just goes to show how silly it is to try and make the faith you chanced upon by being born in one country and more valid than others.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: UB2120
Since God is Eternal, and he is life then life has always existed. Even though that life was self contained. God has bestowed life to all, from the highest (Eternal Son of God) to the lowest protoplasmic cell and everything in between.

And you know all those little details because....


Since when God felt a need to explain his doings to his creation? Why it happened only in one part of the world in somewhat short period of time? Why not now, again?

And lastly, this reminds me of Jim Jefferies' comments about USA and 'god bless America'. For million of years God created everything and then, about 200 years ago he decided to choose his own team among man.

It sounds so ridiculous, when you hear it that way...

I guess I don't follow what you mean by "....it happened only in one part of the world..." as that is not what I am saying at all. God created all life and love each individual, as an individual regardless of their personal level of comprehension of him.

As I said before he is no respecter of persons. Just because one person may have a deeper understanding than another doesn't change how God views the individual. Imagine if you had twin children and one struggled in school more than the other, a loving parent would not love the child who struggles less.

a reply to: helldiver

You are entitled to that belief. You have free will. God neither coerces nor compels anyone to believe in him.

originally posted by: GetHyped

originally posted by: UB2120

There is only one God.

I say there's 100 gods. My answer is as equally valid (i.e. baseless) as yours. If you were born and raised in India you'd be waxing lyrical about the Hindu gods. Just goes to show how silly it is to try and make the faith you chanced upon by being born in one country and more valid than others.

I never said anything about this God or that God, or my God is better than [insert religion]. The Hindu gods are no different than the Christian God or my concept of God. In the end they are the same. I know that is not how the given religion/culture teaches it, but when you really comprehend God as the creator of all things then you realize it matters little what we call him.

Nations, races, cultures and even planets will have varying concepts. God respects the person and recognizes their origin, be it a primitive tribesmen in the rain forest to a highly cultured man from an urban area. God seeks for us to have unity, not uniformity.

a reply to: UB2120

"Agreed! It seems nearly impossible to me that we are the only intelligent life in the universe."

Yes we do agree.

But sometimes I think that our intelligence needs a tune-up.

a reply to: UB2120

Hello again UB2120,

"Since God is Eternal, and he is life then life has always existed. Even though that life was self contained. God has bestowed life to all, from the highest (Eternal Son of God) to the lowest protoplasmic cell and everything in between."

If God bestowed life, then life began.

The appearance of life for the first time is abiogenesis.

As an atheist, I won't argue that God is not eternal.

But it is nearly universally accepted that biological life began at some point in time,

whether by the hand of God or by primordial soup (and a few lightning bolts.)

originally posted by: Diderot
a reply to: UB2120

Hello again UB2120,

"Since God is Eternal, and he is life then life has always existed. Even though that life was self contained. God has bestowed life to all, from the highest (Eternal Son of God) to the lowest protoplasmic cell and everything in between."

If God bestowed life, then life began.

The appearance of life for the first time is abiogenesis.

As an atheist, I won't argue that God is not eternal.

But it is nearly universally accepted that biological life began at some point in time,

whether by the hand of God or by primordial soup (and a few lightning bolts.)

Yes, I agree that at some point material life was initiated (whereas prior it was only spirit life), I am just saying it was a purposeful act of God.